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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    EastaLasVegas
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    66
    Possible temp fix, thicker baggie stuffed around U spring?
    My Ortovox has good plug at bottom of shaft.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Colorado
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    3,004
    Quote Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes View Post
    BCA says their management is now aware of this thread.
    I wonder if they'll recognize and fix the issue, or if they'll pull a Meesh?
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
    -I've seen black diamonds!

    throughpolarizedeyes.com

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    SoCal
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    6,749
    New K2 Backside shovel has a plastic plug.

  4. #29
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean View Post
    I wonder if they'll recognize and fix the issue, or if they'll pull a Meesh?
    Jokes at Meesh are funny, but the intention of threads like this shouldn't be to slam the manufacturer. They can do what they want to do, and buyers can respond with informed purchasing decisions. In the meantime, an informed user base should be fostered. When it comes to rescue gear performance, I think it is important.

    Jonathan - no doubt the probe fits back in there and just needs some more careful placement. I guess we are not performing multiple rescues in a day in real life so a rushed job is unlikely, or the probe would simply live outside the shovel shaft for the day and be re-packed in the evening.

    Your note on crevasse probing and safer stowage is pretty valid. However ultimately I tend to think that probe-in-the-shaft shovels are a bit of a gimmick and on my first encounter in a dynamic teaching situation, it let the user down.

    Most users of rescue gear can not be assumed to be careful, or well versed. Nor even read the instruction manual half the time, not even for their beacons, let alone a shovel. If BCA have designed a shovel that performs best when the user carefully reads an instruction manual then they should remind themselves of their Tracker marketing strategy (The Tracker II by the way frequently only gets a signal 30-35m from the burial in my classes, much to the shock of new users when they hear Pulse and DPS owners yelling out "60 meters!" from way across slope in a signal search, when the Tracker II owner is virtually in snowball throwing distance from the burial and still has no signal).

    In one day of AST training a user of this gear who bought a new BCA package had a 30m signal acquisition range v.s. 60m for his co-students. A probe that stuck in the shaft. And snow that started to shove into the shaft and jam the spring per the OP of this thread. He felt that marketing and popular brand opinion and the recommendation of big online retailers had perhaps swayed his decision more than raw user feedback.
    Life is not lift served.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amherst, Mass.
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    4,684
    Maybe I’m too much of an economist, viewing everything in terms of costs vs benefits and risk vs rewards, but I see all rescue gear as entailing lots of trade-offs. Especially so in the context of the rescue abilities of the avalanche course students I see (and attempt to improve, successfully or otherwise).

    Specifically, can a student jam the BCA probe into the shovel shaft so that subsequent deployment is anything but quick and easy? Sure, but the benefit is that if properly stowed away, the student now has one less separate item to worry about packing (or lashing) and ultimately deploying. As for the care with which the probe must be packed back into the shovel shaft, I don’t see how that is a likely concern for a real rescue: any successful probe strike is going to stay in place until full extrication, and any secondary probers are not going to stow away their probes fully until the rescue is complete.

    As for initial signal acquisition range, the 25m to 30m differential is not realistic. (And I’m referencing actual distances of course, not numbers on screen, which do vary across beacons in their correlations.) Based on my own range tests and those I consulted just now (Off-Piste, bc mag, beaconreviews.com), more like just several meters (with all the caveats that go into range tests). And although that is an advantage of the DSP, in return for the BCA crossed antennas (instead of perpendicular), the unused real estate has been put to good use for the T2 Transmit<>Search switch. Once again, trade-offs.

    (As for the shovel shaft end, just to stress what I said before, I haven’t had the opportunity to test this yet.)

    Overall, I agree that many of the cited drawbacks are real, but every piece of rescue gear has its drawbacks. Certainly some particular drawbacks might render the gear fatally flawed for some types of users.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  6. #31
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    Feb 2007
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    Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    Jokes at Meesh are funny, but the intention of threads like this shouldn't be to slam the manufacturer. They can do what they want to do, and buyers can respond with informed purchasing decisions. In the meantime, an informed user base should be fostered. When it comes to rescue gear performance, I think it is important.
    I'm not slamming the manufacturer, I'm wondering out loud if they're going to address the issues and improve the product, or dig in and get defensive in the face of overwhelming evidence that they made a mistake.

    BCA management is supposedly aware of this thread and I'd really like to hear from them. I've been mostly happy with my now several year-old BCA shovel and would be more than happy to consider a replacement from them if they show a commitment to putting out high-quality products across the board.
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
    -I've seen black diamonds!

    throughpolarizedeyes.com

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    369
    Not sure whats with bca lately. Their shovels have worked like crap. Even worse is their snow saw. Its literally just a pruning saw labeled bca.

  8. #33
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    Dec 2004
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    Amherst, Mass.
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    4,684
    The snow saw this season is much stiffer than previously.
    Mo' skimo here: NE Rando Race Series

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan S. View Post
    The snow saw this season is much stiffer than previously.
    That's good to hear, but it still could use an attachment system like BD's or even G3's.
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
    -I've seen black diamonds!

    throughpolarizedeyes.com

  10. #35
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean View Post
    I'm not slamming the manufacturer, I'm wondering out loud if they're going to address the issues and improve the product, or dig in and get defensive in the face of overwhelming evidence that they made a mistake.

    BCA management is supposedly aware of this thread and I'd really like to hear from them. I've been mostly happy with my now several year-old BCA shovel and would be more than happy to consider a replacement from them if they show a commitment to putting out high-quality products across the board.
    I hear you. But don't think that brands are at the beck and call of the TGR forum. The shovel didn't do anything evil. I just happen to not like it's design in a dynamic frequent use environment. And if I were a user like that (which I am), I'd want to know about it prior to buying. With additional diverse user feedback, they may or may not respond with alterations to their designs. And you may or may not decide to buy their next round of offerings as a result. That's the way it works.

    I really do not think BCA owes me or this thread or this forum an official response to a user review. As the OP, I'd be a bit embarrassed if they did. Others have already chimed in and collectively similar or alternate points of view have been stated and trade-offs in gear functionality highlighted.
    Life is not lift served.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    172
    Are you kidding me? BCA ABSOLUTELY should be reaching out to the community right now. They released a safety-related product with a major flaw.
    To a very tight-knit community. If they don't get out in front of this people are going to talk and it isn't going to reflect well on BCA. The cost of a recall to add a plug on the end or whatever will be nothing compared to the value lost from their brand if this isn't addressed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    I hear you. But don't think that brands are at the beck and call of the TGR forum. The shovel didn't do anything evil. I just happen to not like it's design in a dynamic frequent use environment. And if I were a user like that (which I am), I'd want to know about it prior to buying. With additional diverse user feedback, they may or may not respond with alterations to their designs. And you may or may not decide to buy their next round of offerings as a result. That's the way it works.

    I really do not think BCA owes me or this thread or this forum an official response to a user review. As the OP, I'd be a bit embarrassed if they did. Others have already chimed in and collectively similar or alternate points of view have been stated and trade-offs in gear functionality highlighted.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
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    13,234
    Quote Originally Posted by camlax View Post
    Not sure whats with bca lately. Their shovels have worked like crap. Even worse is their snow saw. Its literally just a pruning saw labeled bca.
    you forgot the low fat h2o absorbing skins or my pos thermometer that turns itself on and drains the high $$ battery
    Not so cool that they wouldn't do a group buy for the community yet are gonna spancer Meesh for being a clueless poster child.
    to late for me i doubt i'll ever purchase any of their gear again or recommend it to anyone
    there are just to many other companies making better quality gear and doing a better job marketing it
    probe in shovel = shitty probe
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  13. #38
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    Feb 2007
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    Colorado
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    I hear you. But don't think that brands are at the beck and call of the TGR forum. The shovel didn't do anything evil. I just happen to not like it's design in a dynamic frequent use environment. And if I were a user like that (which I am), I'd want to know about it prior to buying. With additional diverse user feedback, they may or may not respond with alterations to their designs. And you may or may not decide to buy their next round of offerings as a result. That's the way it works.

    I really do not think BCA owes me or this thread or this forum an official response to a user review. As the OP, I'd be a bit embarrassed if they did. Others have already chimed in and collectively similar or alternate points of view have been stated and trade-offs in gear functionality highlighted.
    BCA has no problem using TGR to ask me for free use of my photographs, so I have no problem expecting them to respond to serious issues with safety gear in a thread that they're aware of. That combined with their feel-good BS press release about the Meesh incident has me second-thinking using or recommending any BCA gear in the future, if they don't step up now.
    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
    -I've seen black diamonds!

    throughpolarizedeyes.com

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Bottom feeding
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    I didn't think anything of this issue till 2 weeks ago when I did an Avi 1 course in the rain and used the shovel repeatedly. I whacked the handle against the blade to try and dislodge the packed in snow, and we made jokes that the sound would be a good alert for a rescue. I can't come up with a good fix, since the handle is a tight fit into the blade. I think for a rescue this is a non-issue, but for repeated shoveling and repacking into your pack, this did suck. BCA Companion w/probe BTW.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  15. #40
    Backcountry Access (BCA) Guest
    Thanks for all the feedback on the B-2 EXT shovel. We've experienced this problem ourselves and have had several comments from users like Hohes ( although not quite as aggro We will have a plug at the end of the shaft next season to prevent snow from getting inside the shaft. We've been making shovels for over a decade and they have never had plugs. However, the new design results in more exposure to this issue. Other than that, we hope you love the stronger, more packable design of our B-1 and B-2 shovels. Thanks again for the input, we take it very seriously. It would be better to hear from you directly, if possible. Like Summit said, we don't monitor the forums as much as we probably should. Feedback like this is certainly a great reason for tuning in.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Back in SEA
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    9,657
    Quote Originally Posted by Backcountry Access (BCA) View Post
    Thanks for all the feedback on the B-2 EXT shovel. We've experienced this problem ourselves and have had several comments from users like Hohes ( although not quite as aggro We will have a plug at the end of the shaft next season to prevent snow from getting inside the shaft. We've been making shovels for over a decade and they have never had plugs. However, the new design results in more exposure to this issue. Other than that, we hope you love the stronger, more packable design of our B-1 and B-2 shovels. Thanks again for the input, we take it very seriously. It would be better to hear from you directly, if possible. Like Summit said, we don't monitor the forums as much as we probably should. Feedback like this is certainly a great reason for tuning in.
    Good Work!

    Can current owners call up and get a plug at cost + ship?
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Bottom feeding
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    Lou reviewed the shovels, and I liked the design.
    http://www.wildsnow.com/7421/bca-b1-...shovel-review/
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    cordova,AK
    Posts
    3,686
    I have a Voile shovel. Have owned it since they started making them. I do not understand the continual quest for a better shovel, I think the model is now called the tele pro. This is the only shovel you need to own.
    off your knees Louie

  19. #44
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Depends on intended range of use. Sounds silly, but if you want to dig very clean pit walls efficiently then a flat shovel with a more square bends will make it easier. Of course any shovel in the right pair of crusty hands can dig a clean pit. "User, not the tool".

    The BCA shovel has a really nice flat/square profile to it. It also doesn't have a swan-neck on the blade, which juts out and takes up space in your pack. In fact this BCA blade, being generally flat and square, is more streamlined and space-efficient. And it is strong. And it is light. I have a bunch of great shovels that will do the job, but none have all these features.

    When BCA offer a cap for the shaft, I'll be using this shovel. I'm actually looking forward to it. Along with my skins, my shovel is my most important and frequently used tool (aside from skis/boots/binding and pack, which are a given).

    And if you really want to get anal about neat pits, I've found that the G3 Bone Saw with it's broad blade cuts a neat straight line much easier than others.
    Life is not lift served.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    --->
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    481
    My BD deploy 7 shovel has a good plug at the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by adria33 View Post
    I ride alone so I don't get held back by dead weights and dead beats. It's not always like that, but I destroy most skiers on the pistes.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    hogtown
    Posts
    33
    I emailed BCA yesterday inquiring about purchasing an end cap for the shaft. This morning in my inbox was a reply offering to send the part for free.

    BCA, thank you for listening, addressing the problem and making the fix.

  22. #47
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    They sent me a retro-fit plug as well and it is now possibly the best shovel range on the market IMHO for flat packing, light weight v.s. build quality, strength, and fast clean digging of profile walls.

    Thanks BCA.
    Life is not lift served.

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