Thread: 2012/2013 ON3P SIA Photos and Discussion

Is it bad of me to want a pair of 186 bg tours as a designated tree ski? I just finished successfully talking my wife into the pair of vicik's, and now you pull this on me. I did just lay the groundwork explain that the 191's felt slower than I want in tight trees... hmmm...Thanks Scott and co. for making my life unnecessarily more complicated with your awesome skis.

Originally Posted by PhiberAwptik

Seriously? Z-toe? You're dead to me.

Yes...but when you get them for next to free, you ski them. Not as bad as I remember the older vesions, honestly. Steel Housing and cranked to 12 .

Mini-review, but here is a teaser:

New rocker profile and tip shape is so $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. In short, they truck like nobody's business, but can still pivot on a dime when you back off and shmear them around. Took a few runs to find the sweet spot in chalky and hard conditions, but once I did I am 110% SOLD on this ski as everything I wanted for any new snow of 1" to 12", or even soft groomers.

Also, my pair has a very, VERY slight amount of camber...about 1mm or less, but it is there. I like the BG's dramatically better with this low camber and/or none.

The Reverse Elliptical sidecut in the front feels almost exactly like the C&D shape (just a mini-version), which is a KICK ASS thing in soft snow.

I nominate the 191 as the ULTRAGOAT.

I was waiting to see if anybody else thought throwing a Z-toe Sally on a Billy goat was a little sacrilegious. Next to free or not I'd spend the extra $20 for a driver toe. But damn they look good eh?
I think I need to get me some 191 BGs... my problem is I am a strong believer in the school of boris... who's teachings are: "Heavy is good, Heavy is reliable, and if it doesn't work you can always throw it at him."

If I want the best Billy Goat for the down not the up, will the regular one be any stiffer, more damp or chatter less under hard conditions?

^^ so where ca I get bindings with the driver toe for next to nothing + $20??

Originally Posted by snej

^^ so where ca I get bindings with the driver toe for next to nothing + $20??

They are the FFG 14's...I got them via some trades, a slight amount of cash, and some begging. And yes, 30 bucks for brand new FFG 14's vs. 300 bucks for the FFG 16, and many of you would do the same. Besides, if i don't like them I can just replace them with driver toes .

The skis are not that heavy in my opinion. And as all ON3P's are, they ski on your feet way lighter than they are.

Originally Posted by Rowen

We're going to hold off on weighing the tours until we have a few more pairs in stock, our core weights for the first few SIA sets were drastically different, and the production tours will have UHMW sidewalls to boot. I'm fairly confident where they'll end up in weight, but no numbers yet till I'm absolutely sure.


2011/2012 BG vs 2012/2013 BG

New Reverse Elliptical Sidecut on all sizes. Basically, its a classical pintailed ski in the tail, but then reverse sidecut in the tip, in an ellipse so theres a contact region out in the tip. You get grip in the tail, then a point in the tip when its on edge and in hard snow. More tip rocker, less tail rocker (slightly anyways), and 191 proportions have been sized down to the 186, 176 and new 166cm sizes.

The new ones haul. I'd maybe go for the current 186 if I was skiing a ton of trees or wanted a very turny tele ski at my size, but the new shape is very much better on hardpack than the old version, and the Reverse Elliptical Sidecut is all the surfeyness you expect in pow, such a crazy good combo.

Thanks for this info, it clarifies some things. Maybe this has been covered, but what are the differences between the 10/11 and 11/12 186cm BG's? I know you did a better job of making the bases flat by using better true bars, but are there any others? My understading was that the 10/11 and 11/12 186cm BGs was basicaly the same and that the big design inovations were limited to the 11/12 191, please correct me if I am wrong? Also, is the RES also applied to the BG Tours?

Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier

Thanks for this info, it clarifies some things. Maybe this has been covered, but what are the differences between the 10/11 and 11/12 186cm BG's? I know you did a better job of making the bases flat by using better true bars, but are there any others? My understading was that the 10/11 and 11/12 186cm BGs was basicaly the same and that the big design inovations were limited to the 11/12 191, please correct me if I am wrong? Also, is the RES also applied to the BG Tours?

For 11/12, the 176cm and 186cm got a slightly different carbon layup, elliptical tip and tail rocker, and a slightly thinner core profile. But the sidecut remained the same.

RES was limited to the 11/12 191cm BG and 193cm C&D.

Next year RES will be on:
All Billy Goat & Billy Goat Tour - 166, 176, 186, 191
All C&D - 183, 193

Already working on applying it in a few other ways, so should be an exciting spring.

As for the 11/12 191cm BG vs 12/13 BG, the principles are the same but we've tweaked the design in the following ways:
1) Less Tip Taper - added 5cm of sidecut to the 191cm (proportionally less on smaller sizes). Gives you better stability and longer effective edge.
2) Fatter, more boxy tip taper - we've been finding that in some of our more tapered skis, the uphill ski will sometimes engage in 3-d snow and pull the ski across the tips of the downhill ski, which is obviously not ideal. So we've been going to a much straighter, neutral taper profile that is a bit easier and more intuitive to ski on, floats better in pow, and allows you to load the tips up more without worrying about them engaging in a negative way.
3) Slightly more tip rocker (both height and length) with slightly less tail rocker (both height and length).
4) The orientation and shape of the ellipse were modified. This is what I've spent the most time working on with these skis. The newer ellipse is larger and thus straighter from boot center forward. That, combined with an adjusted orientation result in a much smoother transition between the reverse and traditional sidecut, allowing for more edge contact on hard snow. The orientation and new ellipse size also allowed us to expand the contact point in the tip, so you get a longer, more effective contact zone up there as well. So there is just a lot more edge in contact with the snow when making a turn. In soft snow, you still get the same ability to smear because there is no positive sidecut in the tips to catch in soft snow, so they remain highly maneuverable and just a ton of fun in anything soft.
5) For the stock flex, we've now decreased the core weight by around 100 grams per ski and double up the carbon top and bottom instead of just top from last year.

Sometime this week I will post an update with a lot more info about the line. We are working on a diagram to show what the design looks like, as it can be hard to just visualize.

Now that I've had to opportunity to ride both the new 191 BG Tour and the "old" 191 BG, I can confirm what the ON3P guys are saying about them. There wasn't any actual powder around, so I just kind of played with the differences on groom and hardpack, and I was really curious how they'd behave out of their natural habitat. The old Billy Goats were totally manageable, but the uphill ski would occasionally try to take off in another direction if I didn't pay attention to it, and they were a little less "locked on" just straightlining through crud. The new skis seemed to get rid of whatever little bit of skittishness the old ones had, and would just haul ass down a skied out groomer.

It might just be my lack of experience with a wide variety of skis, but I was shocked at how stable and fun they both were - I've never really skied anything wider than a 104, and kind of half expected a shitshow on hard snow, but they were a hoot. Can't wait to try more of the 12/13 line.

a little note on next years 186 Jeffery. I have been on it a couple of months. I will wait until a little later to give the full blown review. I will say that it has completely wrecked my quiver. It's that good in so many situations.

Wanted to state how awesome this is for core dampness/vibration absorption and I noticed this right away in hard chop...

5) For the stock flex, we've now decreased the core weight by around 100 grams per ski and double up the carbon top and bottom instead of just top from last year.

Full review up for 2013 191 BG

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...28#post3540528

Do want. But no presale next year?

I seem to remember the shark nose tip being introduced last year, and now they're back to a more blunt-nose tip? Failed experiment? Any insight into what was going on with all this?

Originally Posted by JimLad

Do want. But no presale next year?

Way I heard it they're waiting to see what kind of retail channel they have this year. Retailers don't like it when the manufacturer undercuts them with direct sales.

When a company sells to retailers, the stores/retailers purchases fulfill the spot of a pre-sale for revenue purposes. In addition I know that several companies give retailers a discount for making purchases before March or some other date. Like superstator said, most shops are going to be pretty pissed if they buy skis from a company, and then that company unloads skis at sale prices before the store even gets a chance to sell theirs. It is part of the deal with going through retail outlets, which companies need to do to grow.
On the plus side, many stores (we do) have a preseason sale around labor day weekend. For instance we sell skis at 10% off MAP during that time, which is good for a $50-$100 savings (skis w/ bindings) from standard pricing. In addition their maybe additional promotions such as 5-10% in gift cards that are redeemable later on in the season. I also think that ON3P was having issues with financial sustainability with the pre-sale (100% bamboo cores are expensive, there is a reason almost no one else uses 100% bamboo).

As for the shark nose tip profile, it is still there on some skis, and less on others. It worked vary well on the 191 BG, but with the RES shape, we were able to still get the benefits of it (not catching up in powder and junk snow) while providing more floatation that the broader tip provides. As you can see with the addition of a Billy Goat light, I thought that the 186 BG (and even 191) would be great soft snow touring skis. For breaking trail in the heavier PNW snow, I absolutely hate it when my tip gets under the surface at all. making that tip shape broader, helps prevent that from happening. The broader tip shape combined with RES also gives the ski tremendous abilities to smash through just about anything, to include large groups of ski school, snowboarders or jiblets building a 'sick jump' in the 'BC.' The latter being one of my most favoritists of on snow activities.

So RES with shark nose = no real benefit over blunt nose? So the shark nose is still there on the Wren, Vicik, and other skis without RES? Is RES going to be experimented on said skis, or only the Caylors/Jeffreys? Put another way, is the trade-off not worth it when putting RES on a more hardsnow/charger ski (i.e. Wren/Vicik/others)?

Originally Posted by Lindahl

I seem to remember the shark nose tip being introduced last year, and now they're back to a more blunt-nose tip? Failed experiment? Any insight into what was going on with all this?

Originally Posted by Lindahl

So RES with shark nose = no real benefit over blunt nose? So the shark nose is still there on the Wren, Vicik, and other skis without RES? Is RES going to be experimented on said skis, or only the Caylors/Jeffreys? Put another way, is the trade-off not worth it when putting RES on a more hardsnow/charger ski (i.e. Wren/Vicik/others)?

Wait...what?

The snark nosed tip addition for 11/12 only applied to the vicik and wren, and it is still there for 12/13. We just made it a bit wider so you get better float and the tips bust through crud a bit better. I will post photos of all 3 different tip shapes to show the differences and progression.

Not sure why it is getting discussed as it pertains to the BG, as the BG has ALWAYS been tapered and its tip shape design and how it interacts with RES are its own thing and has nothing to do with the vicik or wren.

Bit confused why RES is getting brought up in regards to the vicik, wren, jeffrey, caylor, etc..

RES is on the BG and CD. That is it for now.

I haven't had a lot of time to check up on this thread, but will try to take sometime tomorrow to do so and correct any confusion that seems to be going on...

Originally Posted by iggyskier

Wait...what?

Going off of a jumbled memory. I thought I remembered seeing a shark-nose on the BG for 11/12, at least more so than it is now (and more than it used to be). Couldn't dig up the old thread that had the photo. Also, thought I had read that RES was being looked at for other skis (not in this thread). Thanks for straightening it out.

Originally Posted by iggyskier

Wait...what?


RES is on the BG and CD. That is it for now.

That is what I posted up and have been saying the entire time, me thinks?

Wren
"181cm, 191cm. Tail rocker with half twin, refined taper in tip, all the aggressiveness you want with more slarving in soft snow."


Please tell me more. A balls to the wall charger that let's you losen it up a little is my dream ski. I am done with quivers I want this to be my one and only. With a little rocker in the tail perhaps I could convince myself to man up to the 191. I look at this thread everyday, fuck these skis look rad.

Originally Posted by Shu Shu

Wren
"181cm, 191cm. Tail rocker with half twin, refined taper in tip, all the aggressiveness you want with more slarving in soft snow."


Please tell me more. A balls to the wall charger that let's you losen it up a little is my dream ski. I am done with quivers I want this to be my one and only. With a little rocker in the tail perhaps I could convince myself to man up to the 191. I look at this thread everyday, fuck these skis look rad.

Having put a good hand fucking on these, I will say that the tail rocker is pretty fucking dialed looking, just enough to let you break it free smoothly if you want/need to.

Originally Posted by PhiberAwptik

Having put a good hand fucking on these, I will say that the tail rocker is pretty fucking dialed looking, just enough to let you break it free smoothly if you want/need to.

... If there was a 'buy now' button beside the picture of these on the first page, they'd be in the mail.

Did some searching and couldn't find a quick answer. All of ON3P's skis are finished with a 1 degree side angle? Need to do some touch up on my Viciks from last year.

^^^ 1 degree base and side bevel, I believe.

Don't know what is standard, but my viciks (first years) are tuned at 3/1 and dont suck.