Thread: Tree Well - Close Call at Whistler

http://www.wayneflannavalancheblog.c...tter-more.html

Yep, one Fox40 Sonik Blast is on order and will soon reside on my pack strap.

I've gotten into some pretty deep tree holes, but I've ALWAYS been able to get myself out. Luckily in each situation I was unhurt, though. The key here, like many situations, is to calm down and focus on your situation. If you ARE upside down...try and visualize your bodily position. Unlike in a avalanche, you are in a well caused by tree...there will be the trunk and/or limbs SOMEWHERE in the vicinity. In both my deep well circumstances, I was close enough to stout limbs that I was able to leverage my self out against them...after some gyrations. The key is to stop, calm down and think out your plan. Just like in an avalanche, slight bodily movements will lead to more room, leading to even more space-generating wriggle room. The following video says "don't move"....that's great if you have 5 patrollers digging you out. Otherwise you will be on your own.

The good news is tree wells are NOT crevasses. Falling into a large, icy crevasse has ALWAYS been my very worst nightmare.

That said, it is absolutely amazing how damn deep tree wells can sometimes be. Even when you get yourself righted, it is still a methodic chore getting out.



--

i have the audio muted, but that video is terrifying

he odds of surviving a deep snow immersion/NARSID accident are low; especially if you are not with a partner. In two experiments conducted in the U.S. and Canada in which volunteers were temporarily placed in a tree well, 90% COULD NOT rescue themselves.

http://www.treewelldeepsnowsafety.com/

Although statistics are difficult to procure, snow immersion asphyxiation has resulted in more than 70 documented deaths in the past 2 decades.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832705

Of 32 skiing fatalities that occurred in British Columbia from 1993 to 1998, 8 were NARSIDs. Six deaths occurred when victims suffocated after falling into tree wells around conifers; two victims asphyxiated after falling into a deep snowbank. Seven were Alpine skiers and one was a snowboarder; all had advanced skiing or snowboarding skills. All recorded NARSIDs occurred during or immediately after heavy snowstorms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20086691

[

QUOTE=canwilf;3529346]http://www.treewelldeepsnowsafety.com[/QUOTE]

Wait a minute....there is a WEBSITE on treewells????? WOW.

No one is doubting that tree well's are dangerous...and I certainly don't poo poo them. I'm as wary of them as I can be when in/near tree. But beyond reading the evident snow signs foretelling their possible existence in your area for whatever anticipated depth and always being within sight of one or more partners, there is little else one can do for preparation. It becomes a factor of luck. I was lucky myself in that in both incidents I wasn't in any sort of a suffocation situation...no snow surrounding my head...just an embarrassing pain-in-the-ass situation, but luckily with no inversion. But I believe calming down and trying to think clearly is job one. All your ropes will do no good in a tree well, because even your pack won't be accessible. So you're simply left with working your limbs (which HOPEFULLY aren't injured). I'm just glad that both those times I wasn't on my board. I've been in a very small tree well on my still attached board and even that tiny tree well was a big PITA to extricate from due to the snowboard bindings. Something I ALWAYS keep in mind when boarding in trees now.

In short, yes, tree wells are dangerous, but sometimes because of routing considerations you can't avoid the trees. But you CAN pass through the area with smarts and wary of getting TOO close downhill quadrant of the trees....that downhill side of the tree is THE danger zone, so stay the hell away from that side. Trees after a dump are NOT slalom gates!

I must admit that before those two wells that I stupidly got myself into (and luckily out of), I was fairly oblivious to the danger of Alaskan tree wells (having grown up skiing in the norteast where the wells are mostly small)....I'd ski or ride through the tree glades without a clue to the hidden danger of the wells....just having a ball. Then Whuuummmppp. No more are trees the absolute joy they once were. I still enjoy them but am MUCH more wary.

If people reading this thread learn ANYTHING from this thread it should be this:

Stay away from the DOWNHILL SIDE of trees in the deep.

I can't overemphasize that. The uphill side can form treewells too, depending on the branching of the tree and degree of slope, but the downhill side is usually the more dangerous side

--

EDIT: I should note, that it also really depends on the topography of that locale as to whether the downside or upside is more prevalant. In both my cases, it was the downside portion, so that's what I'm more wary of...but I think prevailing wind loading also contributes. In my two instances I was in higher altitudes where the prevailing wind was more often a downslope wind from the peak. In valleys that might reverse, so one can't always say it'll be the downhill section. And in very steeps, you'll notice it can often be the uphill section. So in short, just be wary of the trees....and keep your partner in sight. He/she disappears, you only have minutes to find his tracks if he IS upside down. Just think of it like traversing an icefield, except less hairy.

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

Just like in an avalanche, slight bodily movements will lead to more room, leading to even more space-generating wriggle room.

God you are an idiot. Seriously every post you make is a gold mine. The rock climbing one was my favorite, more babbling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about! The best part is in all your posts you act like you are some kind of knowledgeable expert when most of the time you are totally wrong. Are you just one of those people who are full of shit and feel the need to impart their wisdom on everyone?

Seriously shut up already. How is an avalanche like a tree well? Have you ever tried "wiggling" your way out of an avalanche to make more room? You are always so full of shit dude....

Originally Posted by SkiED

God you are an idiot. Seriously every post you make is a gold mine. The rock climbing one was my favorite, more babbling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about! The best part is in all your posts you act like you are some kind of knowledgeable expert when most of the time you are totally wrong. Are you just one of those people who are full of shit and feel the need to impart their wisdom on everyone?

Seriously shut up already. How is an avalanche like a tree well? Have you ever tried "wiggling" your way out of an avalanche to make more room? You are always so full of shit dude....

Its amazing isn't it. Not only is he full of shit, he writes a damn book each post.

Sent from my PantechP8000 using TGR Forums

Originally Posted by SkiED

Seriously shut up already. How is an avalanche like a tree well? Have you ever tried "wiggling" your way out of an avalanche to make more room? You are always so full of shit dude....

What? No coffee, this morning?

Reading comprehension much? I never said anything whatsoever about a tree well being like an avalanche. I've never qualified myself as an expert here. I have no accredidation, in that regard. I'm not a guide...and have never alluded to being an expert. Like many here, I'm simply one who goes into the backcountry, observes his surroundings, learns from his many mistakes, and has been doing so for a long time...longer perhaps, than some people on this board have even been alive.

The ONLY facet in which a tree well would even be close to an avalanche would be in a total snow immersion kind of way (what was that: NARSID?). In both my tree well incidents, I wasn't totally immersed and I wasn't inverted...probably would have died if I was, as I was solo. And I've never been totally immersed in a full-on avalanche either. Like most or many here, I've been unfortunate enough to be in small slides (or FORTUNATE that they weren't bigger). The only slight analogy I was trying to make was that small, slow methodical movements CAN and DO beget a little more room. Maybe enough to reach that transponder or cell phone or cyanide or whatever. I never once intimated that you can simply "wiggle" yourself out of a total immersion. Where do you GET this shit from?

Doughboy: Serious lack of coffee, too?? Don't you have some elevators or horse-racing gates to repair?

I DO have way more respect for trees after consecutive dumps, though.

--

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

What? No coffee, this morning?


Doughboy: Serious lack of coffee, too?? Don't you have some elevators or horse-racing gates to repair?

I DO have way more respect for trees after consecutive dumps, though.

--

I don't use caffeine.

Seriously dude. You use 90 times more words than you need to. I know it makes you feel like you are really getting your point across, but you're not. Most people don't read the majority of what you write. You're wasting your time.

I do have a lot of work to do, but I am recovering from surgery right at the moment.

Bout time to take a vicodin fueled nap.


Sent from my PantechP8000 using TGR Forums

Originally Posted by SkiED

God you are an idiot. Seriously every post you make is a gold mine. The rock climbing one was my favorite, more babbling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about! The best part is in all your posts you act like you are some kind of knowledgeable expert when most of the time you are totally wrong. Are you just one of those people who are full of shit and feel the need to impart their wisdom on everyone?

Seriously shut up already. How is an avalanche like a tree well? Have you ever tried "wiggling" your way out of an avalanche to make more room? You are always so full of shit dude....

This.

Chill, rover. More words does not make you look like you know what you're talking about. Just the opposite in fact.

Sent from my DROID Pro using TGR Forums

Originally Posted by Tech Tonics

This.

Chill, rover. More words does not make you look like you know what you're talking about. Just the opposite in fact.

Sent from my DROID Pro using TGR Forums

Re-quoting a post that has already been refuted is merely an obvious effort in juvenile manuevering, ESPECIALLY when said post was so completely out of context...so what's the point?

--

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

What? No coffee, this morning?

Reading comprehension much? I never said anything whatsoever about a tree well being like an avalanche. The only slight analogy I was trying to make was that small, slow methodical movements CAN and DO beget a little more room. Maybe enough to reach that transponder or cell phone or cyanide or whatever.

Do you just write such long meandering posts that even their point is lost on you? You clearly stated "Just like in an avalanche, slight bodily movements will lead to more room, leading to even more space-generating wriggle room." And you are clearly full of shit. And your follow up post is even better. Obviously you have no clue what being caught in an avalanche is like and the "small slides" you were caught in are called sluffs.

The truth is you are not going to be wiggling for a cell phone, or transponder??, after you are caught in a slide. Keep talking though man I know you get off on hearing yourself bullshit.

Originally Posted by canwilf

Sheeeee-it. That video gave me the willies. Good thing he had company.

That guy owes them his life, he was not wiggling out of that one. Fucking scary.

Downhill side thing makes sens. I'd never end up in the tree well in the video. Not like that. No fucking way. (vid may have been staged..)

I know what AKRs talkin about when it comes to wiggling when you're caught in an avalanche. Crampedon is right tho. One thing is.. It'd be good to have the DIN set low so I could pop my skis just by pulling on them and right myself.

Originally Posted by SkiED

Do you just write such long meandering posts that even their point is lost on you? You clearly stated "Just like in an avalanche, slight bodily movements will lead to more room, leading to even more space-generating wriggle room." And you are clearly full of shit. And your follow up post is even better. Obviously you have no clue what being caught in an avalanche is like and the "small slides" you were caught in are called sluffs.

The truth is you are not going to be wiggling for a cell phone, or transponder??, after you are caught in a slide. Keep talking though man I know you get off on hearing yourself bullshit.

SkiEd knows about that of which he speaks when it comes to avies. That someone can pull themselves up tree limbs out of a tree well or reach their phone is the anomaly. It's an all but helpless situation that is a claustrophobic mutherfucker to go down a tree well. I've done it twice and if there hadn't been people right there, it likely would not have ended with me getting myself out. Worst part was that I did it twice in the same day with a backpack full of camera gear, went in ass-first as I carved to stop in deep pow by trees and had the well walls collapse under the tails of my skis and suck me in. Both times on the upslope side of the trees, contrary to AKR's assertion the downhill sides are more dangerous. I really don't see myself sliding uphill into a tree well as the result of a fall and I, too, think AKR is the Walter Mitty of TGR.

Originally Posted by SkiED

God you are an idiot. Seriously every post you make is a gold mine. The rock climbing one was my favorite, more babbling from someone who has no idea what they are talking about! The best part is in all your posts you act like you are some kind of knowledgeable expert when most of the time you are totally wrong. Are you just one of those people who are full of shit and feel the need to impart their wisdom on everyone?

Seriously shut up already. How is an avalanche like a tree well? Have you ever tried "wiggling" your way out of an avalanche to make more room? You are always so full of shit dude....

qft
him and the messenger boy is stokeless anonymous gurus and ak post to much thinks there are actually people who care to read his epic ski babble
long time no post brah
adverse melted down
workin a new handle
kindler, gentler and just as clueless
not much new otherwise
still utarded?
maybe ski ya round

Originally Posted by SkiED

Do you just write such long meandering posts that even their point is lost on you? You clearly stated "Just like in an avalanche, slight bodily movements will lead to more room, leading to even more space-generating wriggle room." And you are clearly full of shit. And your follow up post is even better. Obviously you have no clue what being caught in an avalanche is like and the "small slides" you were caught in are called sluffs.

The truth is you are not going to be wiggling for a cell phone, or transponder??, after you are caught in a slide. Keep talking though man I know you get off on hearing yourself bullshit.

Do you ever look at a seagull and wonder what it would be like to fly like that? I think that you perhaps look at other humans and ponder what it would be like NOT to be an officious dickhead.

Look at your post history....75% of the time you're being a total dick to someone for little reason. I'm serious. Or complaining or whining about someone or something. You're even a dick when you whine. I guess you just get off on being an internet dick...some people do.

Okay, first: "The truth is you are not going to be wiggling for a cell phone, or transponder??, after you are caught in a slide." What the fuck is this?? I see you capitalize the "ED" in your name, hence I presume you qualify yourself as some sort of teacher. What teacher has no concept of logic or associative thought? When I was referring to cell phones, I was making it in reference to TREE WELLS (and people HAVEoften been reported to have used cells in tree wells). Of COURSE no one is going to be able to able to use a cell phone in a avalanche. DUH. Get your associations correct before you erroneously repeat things. Surely that cannot be over your cognitive ability, can it?

The ONLY time I mentioned avalanches was in reference to the fact that, depending if one is fairly near the surface, one CAN make small, methodical movements. This is less to free oneself than it is the very important task of trying to increase one's free air space. Although IF you are near the surface of the debris field, you MIGHT be able to get enough movement to free a limb (which has ALSO historically happened). Yes, I've taken avi courses and realize that both the heat generated by the avalanche itself and body heat does change the immediate snow structure and make movements difficult near the surface and obviously IMPOSSIBLE in the depths of an avalanche. DUH on that, too. Sorry for using such a juvenile expression but your thought-processes seem relatively juvenile, so it's fitting.

All the rest of the text was in reference to tree wells....yet you mistakenly associate it to avalanches.

Also, I can't help but notice that in true dickhead fashion, you put '??' after my useage of transponder. I was referring to people who carry PLBs and spots in addition to the requisite avi beacon....and again....as making the reference for in tree wells, not avis. The avi beacon should, OF COURSE, already be turned on and switched to transmit or send mode well before skis even hit the pow. But some people carry PLB or spots with them as well. or FRS radio. I myself often carry a ACR plb and a VHF radio....but you're right, I should have called it a PLB to be less confusing (although my sailboat does have 2 actual SART units as well a 2 EPIRBS [SART = Search And Rescue Transponder]).

And yes, I'm quite familiar with 'sluffs'....which are small category one-sized avalanches, of the 'loose snow' variety...as opposed to slab avis. But small avalanches nonetheless, and can be called, in common parlance: .......small slides. Geee...whaddya know? I'm just glad the ones I've actually been caught by WERE that loose snow variety and not large dry slabs!! (although a fairly large slab did go by quite close to me in Hatcher a few years ago, although I as well outside the debris path.)

Anyway, your 'between the lines' condescension is nauseating.

Oh....and what was that in another thread you posted: something about if given the choice between a space blanket and a cell phone, you'd leave the space blanket at home. Great decision!!! Cells really come in handy in the BC, don't they? Dead batteries, poor or no reception. It's getting past sunset...that dead cell phone isn't going to do shit...but that silly little silver blankie just MIGHT provide enough of a wind break and reflective heat barrier to let you survive the night. What's your dead or useless cellphone gonna do? With comments like that, you sure don't paint yourself as much of an outdoorsman at all. I don't even think you know what the concept means. You're probably one of those useless dudes who doesn't even know how to fix his own car. Take BOTH the cellphone AND the space blanket, then.


SPLAT : Wow....that was one stupid comment you just made. Tree well situations run the gamut from upside down total snow immersion to the feet/skis first, no snow immersion kind of thing that it seems we were both involved with. And I all too stated, it was a purely diabolical situation...and was lucky that I was able to use low hanging limbs to my benefit and one of them STILL took nearly 20 minutes of ork to get out of that tangled mess. And like I'd said, neither of my cases were an immersion/suffrocation situation....doesn't sound like yours were either.


As to downhill vs. uphill sides, of course both can present as problems...and it is also heavily dependent upon slope pitch. But NO, you don't need to magically slide UPHILL to get yourself in caught in a downhill-side tree well. When you're in the trees and accidently cut in too close as you ski past the tree, say on a off-the-falline diagonal between some trees, you are entering the downhill quadrant of that tree. You sometimes end up skiing on a diagonal directly downslope of the tree and can inadvertantly get too close. Many get into that downhill side of the tree well that way. Haven't you ever raced gates?? Your thinking on this aspect has serious gaps in logic.

I think it would be interesting to find data on which side, the downhill or the uphill, results in more tree well strandings.

--

Excellent video, I have always been warry of tree wells any time I am in the trees which I love to ski.

Thanks for posting that. ;-)

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

SPLAT : Wow....that was one stupid comment you just made. Tree well situations run the gamut from upside down total snow immersion to the feet/skis first, no snow immersion kind of thing that it seems we were both involved with. And I all too stated, it was a purely diabolical situation...and was lucky that I was able to use low hanging limbs to my benefit and one of them STILL took nearly 20 minutes of ork to get out of that tangled mess. And like I'd said, neither of my cases were an immersion/suffrocation situation....doesn't sound like yours were either.


As to downhill vs. uphill sides, of course both can present as problems...and it is also heavily dependent upon slope pitch. But NO, you don't need to magically slide UPHILL to get yourself in caught in a downhill-side tree well. When you're in the trees and accidently cut in too close as you ski past the tree, say on a off-the-falline diagonal between some trees, you are entering the downhill quadrant of that tree. You sometimes end up skiing on a diagonal directly downslope of the tree and can inadvertantly get too close. Many get into that downhill side of the tree well that way. Haven't you ever raced gates?? Your thinking on this aspect has serious gaps in logic.

I think it would be interesting to find data on which side, the downhill or the uphill, results in more tree well strandings.

--

Thanks. You all but emphasized that the danger with treewells only lies on the downslope side. I understand that you are basing this on your own personal experience. I simply related that the danger is all the way around the tree and that a fall could carry you into the uphill side, relating my own experience. There also was a video posted here last season that showed someone fall and slide into the side of a treewell and get rescued by some unprepared nitwits who had one shovel in a group of five or six. Your failure was to address only the downhill side and not the hollow around the rest of the tree.

If you spent as much time clarifying and qualifying your original posts as you do clarifying and backpedaling in your subsequent posts, we'd all be better for it, Mr. Prolixity.

Let's just hope we get enough snow in California/Nevada that tree wells can be an issue. Right now you would hit your head on the ground before you got deep enough to get caught.

When I first dedicated some time on a slowboard, I washed out and slid board first into the uphill side of a tree well. I was deep and it took my buddy reaching in and helping me out of the well

"Vicodin hurts my stomach, Doc. Any chance there's a smaller pill that I don't have to take as often and that won't hurt my stomach?"

-Well it's the aceitomenophin that tends to upset the stomach

"Any chance you can prescribe me something that will take the pain away but doesn't have aceitomenophin in it?"

Bingo was his name-o, try that


Don't blame me I voted for JoJo

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

Do you ever look at a seagull and wonder what it would be like to fly like that? I think that you perhaps look at other humans and ponder what it would be like NOT to be an officious dickhead.

Look at your post history....75% of the time you're being a total dick to someone for little reason. I'm serious. Or complaining or whining about someone or something. You're even a dick when you whine. I guess you just get off on being an internet dick...some people do.

Okay, first: "The truth is you are not going to be wiggling for a cell phone, or transponder??, after you are caught in a slide." What the fuck is this?? I see you capitalize the "ED" in your name, hence I presume you qualify yourself as some sort of teacher. What teacher has no concept of logic or associative thought? When I was referring to cell phones, I was making it in reference to TREE WELLS (and people HAVEoften been reported to have used cells in tree wells). Of COURSE no one is going to be able to able to use a cell phone in a avalanche. DUH. Get your associations correct before you erroneously repeat things. Surely that cannot be over your cognitive ability, can it?

The ONLY time I mentioned avalanches was in reference to the fact that, depending if one is fairly near the surface, one CAN make small, methodical movements. This is less to free oneself than it is the very important task of trying to increase one's free air space. Although IF you are near the surface of the debris field, you MIGHT be able to get enough movement to free a limb (which has ALSO historically happened). Yes, I've taken avi courses and realize that both the heat generated by the avalanche itself and body heat does change the immediate snow structure and make movements difficult near the surface and obviously IMPOSSIBLE in the depths of an avalanche. DUH on that, too. Sorry for using such a juvenile expression but your thought-processes seem relatively juvenile, so it's fitting.

All the rest of the text was in reference to tree wells....yet you mistakenly associate it to avalanches.

Also, I can't help but notice that in true dickhead fashion, you put '??' after my useage of transponder. I was referring to people who carry PLBs and spots in addition to the requisite avi beacon....and again....as making the reference for in tree wells, not avis. The avi beacon should, OF COURSE, already be turned on and switched to transmit or send mode well before skis even hit the pow. But some people carry PLB or spots with them as well. or FRS radio. I myself often carry a ACR plb and a VHF radio....but you're right, I should have called it a PLB to be less confusing (although my sailboat does have 2 actual SART units as well a 2 EPIRBS [SART = Search And Rescue Transponder]).

And yes, I'm quite familiar with 'sluffs'....which are small category one-sized avalanches, of the 'loose snow' variety...as opposed to slab avis. But small avalanches nonetheless, and can be called, in common parlance: .......small slides. Geee...whaddya know? I'm just glad the ones I've actually been caught by WERE that loose snow variety and not large dry slabs!! (although a fairly large slab did go by quite close to me in Hatcher a few years ago, although I as well outside the debris path.)

Anyway, your 'between the lines' condescension is nauseating.

Oh....and what was that in another thread you posted: something about if given the choice between a space blanket and a cell phone, you'd leave the space blanket at home. Great decision!!! Cells really come in handy in the BC, don't they? Dead batteries, poor or no reception. It's getting past sunset...that dead cell phone isn't going to do shit...but that silly little silver blankie just MIGHT provide enough of a wind break and reflective heat barrier to let you survive the night. What's your dead or useless cellphone gonna do? With comments like that, you sure don't paint yourself as much of an outdoorsman at all. I don't even think you know what the concept means. You're probably one of those useless dudes who doesn't even know how to fix his own car. Take BOTH the cellphone AND the space blanket, then.


SPLAT : Wow....that was one stupid comment you just made. Tree well situations run the gamut from upside down total snow immersion to the feet/skis first, no snow immersion kind of thing that it seems we were both involved with. And I all too stated, it was a purely diabolical situation...and was lucky that I was able to use low hanging limbs to my benefit and one of them STILL took nearly 20 minutes of ork to get out of that tangled mess. And like I'd said, neither of my cases were an immersion/suffrocation situation....doesn't sound like yours were either.


As to downhill vs. uphill sides, of course both can present as problems...and it is also heavily dependent upon slope pitch. But NO, you don't need to magically slide UPHILL to get yourself in caught in a downhill-side tree well. When you're in the trees and accidently cut in too close as you ski past the tree, say on a off-the-falline diagonal between some trees, you are entering the downhill quadrant of that tree. You sometimes end up skiing on a diagonal directly downslope of the tree and can inadvertantly get too close. Many get into that downhill side of the tree well that way. Haven't you ever raced gates?? Your thinking on this aspect has serious gaps in logic.

I think it would be interesting to find data on which side, the downhill or the uphill, results in more tree well strandings.

--

...tldnr

edit:
oops..sprite wouldn't read it either..
EW...god, I could have some fun here..but then again..this is serious shit..
AkR...Pleeeeassssse

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

The only slight analogy I was trying to make was that small, slow methodical movements CAN and DO beget a little more room. Maybe enough to reach that transponder or cell phone..--