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01-22-2012, 05:39 PM #1
WTF is Flipcore? (An Attempt at an Explanation)
We've been skiing the Bonafide a little and the Cochise a lot.
And the more we've discussed Flipcore, the less clear it all became. So this is our best attempt to explain what, exactly, is going on with Flipcore, the extent to which it is or isn't simply marketing bullshit, and whether the Flipcore production process really is the reason that the Cochise skis so well....
http://blistergearreview.com/articles/what-is-flipcore
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01-22-2012, 05:56 PM #2
That's a good drawn out review of what all goes into it. I do believe that it makes a difference especially in the forgiveness and stability realm even though I haven't been on the Blizzrd flip core skis, but rather Grace Kylies.
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01-22-2012, 06:45 PM #3
I agree that their wording was misleading, but I thought I had a pretty good grasp on what they were claiming regarding construction process, even if I didn't really know all the technical reasons why.
But their marketing claim doesn't seem to stand up to me since it seems like they are not actually doing what they say. Let me explain.
The Bonafide, Cochise, and Bodacious all claim to have flipcore technology, but the Cochise has a small amount of camber under foot and the Bonafide has even more. They must have pressed this camber into the ski while allowing the rocker portion to continue to follow the core profiling. What is the point in saying you are not artificially pressing the rocker into a ski if you're going to artificially press the camber into it? And when you look at the Bodacious, the rocker is still subtle but there is now so much more of it that if they were truly just profiling cores to get the shapes they wanted, they'd be starting with a core about 7 or 8cm thick and milling the crap out of it. I'd be happy to hear they're doing that (if only to back up the marketing claim), but I doubt they are.
As a final note I will say that I skied the Bonafide at a demo day and I really liked the ski a lot, and I'm considering the Bodacious as a powder ski, but I'm considering them because of the way they ski and the shape concept they are going for, and I have serious doubts about the marketing that goes along with it and whether or not any of that hype is actually factually based. That should be enough for a ski manufacturer to state, but clearly they all feel the need to try to differentiate themselves from everyone else at all costs.Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season
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01-22-2012, 07:09 PM #4
Read it.
Understand it.
Sounds suspect.
Fibers in a flip core base are not continuous at all since what's now on the base is not complete strands tip to tail. The material that creates the contoured profile is cut off as the ski gets to the thinner parts. You actually induce more flex and breakdown of the core by doing it this way since even stressed (by pressing) continuous fibers will maintain their structural integrity better than stressed (by sking) intermittent fibers.
Now if cores were machined aluminum or something, that might be a different story. Wood however........Last edited by kidwoo; 01-23-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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01-22-2012, 07:24 PM #5
Just ski them, they are amazingly fun skis; and that's my expert enginerd opinion
www.dpsskis.com
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formerly an ambassador for a few others, but the ski industry is... interesting.
Fukt: a very small amount of snow.
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01-22-2012, 07:28 PM #6
I'm sure they rule.
I just don't think putting the already broken strand section on the extension part of a core vs. the compressing side is going to make a ski that rides the same a year later.
Tell me how they work after a full hard season.
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01-22-2012, 08:41 PM #7
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01-22-2012, 08:54 PM #8
Awsome, glad to see the review is out. I've been waiting for it. Thanks.
"Remember, if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." -Warren Miller
Ephesians 4:7
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01-22-2012, 09:03 PM #9
Just to be clear, in my own (feeble) mind, the jury is still out on what is BS and what isn't. What is clear is that questions remain, and we'll see what sort of reply we get at SIA. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
And before Blizzard gets killed for it's marketing, let's remember that a whole lot of companies are putting out lesser skis than the Cochise, but pretty much every marketing department in the industry dials the volume up to eleven.
To me, the most amazing part about all this isn't Blizzard's claims, it's that nobody in the review world asked questions about how this stuff really works, and what it actually does. They just said it's awesome.
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01-23-2012, 12:37 AM #10
Flipcore and vacuum got the ispo award in 2011. The vacuum system is well described in videos. The flipcore is - at best - obscure. Time for blizzard to show in video how this flipcore works.
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01-23-2012, 04:38 AM #11
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01-23-2012, 06:15 AM #12I drink it up
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Blister reviews feel like a creative writing assignment (or one of AdironRider's posts). I appreciate the hard work, but there's a pretty low content/word ratio. [/bitching about a free resource]
Interesting point. To what point is this true, or is it just universal? Will they be more or less likely to decamber over time, and does this actually have an intuitive relationship to retaining stiffness and/or an even flex? Because decambering the ski is, to the point of the original profile, not stressing the shorter fibers until it exceeds the profile, is kidwoo's contention mitigated? Is it like shorter rubber bands?
How do they make bows?Last edited by Mustonen; 01-23-2012 at 07:27 AM.
focus.
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01-23-2012, 12:47 PM #13
What's the difference between putting a carbon weave between the core and the base, and putting carbon between the core and the top sheet?
How does the beem of a ski distribute pressure and handle loading with to vertical displacement when it is flip core or traditional core?
If you take a profiled ski core, and press it into a ski in a flat mold (no camber profile) is their any camber in the pressed ski? What if you press a tip and tail shape into the ski? What if you just leave the core on a table for a day?
Which side of an airplane wing will have a strut supporting it on a low speed aircraft (Cessna) why is it on this side.
Just some stuff worth thinking about.
I honestly don't view it as marketing bullshit. It makes sense. Ya like all marketing it is inflated, but it is nothing overthrew top compared to what bullshit has been marketed in other skis.
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01-23-2012, 12:57 PM #14
Here's what we at Grace are saying about Flipcore, which we call Y180. It's more than just having a "natural" rocker. It's putting less pressure on the ski while shaping/pressing it.
http://skigrace.com/grace-skis.php#y180
"Y180 is Grace Skis way of pre-tensioning a ski. The natural bamboo unidirectional fibers are utilized through a uniquely engineered core, like a spring to keep the ski from bending past 0°. When the ski reaches 0° and goes into reverse camber the spring is released making a "reverse camber ski" When the skiers weight is released the camber created by the mold and tensile strength of the composites takes effect and bring the ski back to positive camber.
The unidirectional carbon running under the core in tension, restrains in compression and aids in bringing the ski back to positive camber. All this adds up to a ski that is responsive on groomers, floats in crud and powder and stomps landings."
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01-23-2012, 01:48 PM #15Registered User
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I don't see what the big deal is--it would only be bullshit if the skis sucked. Obviously Blizz has implemented a cool idea in a new series of great skis, given it a catchy name and have marketed it well. Whatever it is, it works. If anything it's the users and reviewers of the skis who have been blowing the Flipcore thing out of proportion because the skis perform so well across so many different conditions and nobody can put a finger on it exactly what it is other than saying, "yeah, that Flipcore thing is brilliant."
It's probably not as simple as it sounds and I doubt Blizz are going to put out a white paper on it so every other ski manufacturer out there can copy them next year. A little mystery is a good thing--just the fact that threads like these are popping up everywhere means they've have done their job well and the viral marketing piece is pretty much just fueling itself now.
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01-23-2012, 01:59 PM #16simen@downskis.com DOWN SKIS
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01-23-2012, 02:10 PM #17I drink it up
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Are you trying to say that there are essentially two flex profiles? The first (minimal) to decamber up to moderate reverse camber, the second to actually flex the ski past the "natural" moderate reverse camber? Lets you have a stiff, responsive ski for charging that isn't planky and unwieldly at slow speed? Think that's what's happening on the cochise that has everybody so puzzled/excited?
After skiing the Renegades (full reverse) I'm kind of over camber, though it would be nice to be able to engage that tip at slow speed on hardpack. I don't have to bend the stiff bastards into every single arc, but there's plenty there when I want to and lots of beef for variable snow.focus.
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01-23-2012, 09:13 PM #18
No.... I say it's bullshit because it's not true, regardless of how good the ski is. My point is that they are clearly pressing camber into the Bonafide for sure, a little bit in the Cochise (most likely). So saying that not having to press an unnatural shape is contradicted by the fact that there is camber in those two skis.
And if that's not true, why should we believe any of the other claims?
Again, I liked the ski and I think that should be enough, but for some reason it's not for them.Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season
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01-23-2012, 10:34 PM #19
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01-23-2012, 10:50 PM #20
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01-24-2012, 12:44 AM #21
I have one alternate possible explanation:
Blizzard advertising person(BAP): We need to get in on this rocker thing!
Blizzard engineer(BE): Rocker? We just made some brand new, kickass low camber molds. Rocker is just a fad.
BAP: Nonono, Iīm telling you, rocker sells like a mofo, we need to get in on it, NOW!
BE: Hm... (silence for five minutes) ... what if we flip the cores around? That way we can get rockered skis from our low camber molds, and save a shit-ton of money on tooling. Yay, rocker!
BAP: Rocker? Nonono, this isnīt rocker, itīs "Flipcore" (tm)! Iīll get right to work on writing some hyperbole, get to the presses, now!
The rest is history.
As almost everyon else here, not saying the skis arenīt any good (have not had a chance to try them yet), but I belive itīs due to the skis being well built (and rockered), not due to the flipcore.simen@downskis.com DOWN SKIS
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01-24-2012, 01:15 AM #22
yeah, what still confuses me is the ISPO award they got last year.
There are only two possible explanations:
- ISPO jury received some very convincing supplemental info that blizz has not released yet to common people
- ISPO jury knows nothing about how skis have been made in the last 5-7 years
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01-24-2012, 01:58 AM #23
Now if buzzards flip core skis incorporated Hollow tech with a Powder hull the technical explanation would be interesting. Why not make a flat cambered ski to. As long as they ski well. I liked the Bodacious yesterday in foot deep skied out powder. But I also like my 82MM waisted Nordica jetfuels in that also just camber.
The right ski for me is one that is the right flex for my weight,the right length for the flex and the right width for were and how I ski rockered or not. Fliped,hollowed or Hulled as long as they ski well under me. That doesnt mean they will ski well under you.
Flip core to me is just another marketing saying. Thats fine. Every one has there little niche catch phrase these days .FACTION
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01-24-2012, 06:35 AM #24
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01-24-2012, 08:01 AM #25
That's correct. Same thing I was going to mention. The series definitely kicks ass, regardless of what people think about the marketing of it. What the hell do you expect them to do? NOT do any marketing??
Head right now has a feature(?) called KERS, that according to the website: "Piezoelectric fibers transform kinetic energy into electrical energy which is stored. Electrical energy is immediately released to areas of the ski, where additional energy is requested. Timing and release are automatically controlled and coordinated. Depending on the flex pattern of different ski models, sensors are programmed beforehand: the more aggressive the ski has to be, the stiffer the tail will become."
They electronically become stiffer at exactly the right moment??? I think that is some shit we should question rather than the simple profile of a wood core. All the companies make weird claims.. They are pretty much supposed to."Shit, I'll choke her while she's cleaning, and I'll do it wearing a helmet cam mounted on a full-face helmet.
I'll have meatdrink9 do the lighting for the shot. He'll make it artsy as fuck." - Phunk
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