Thread: Death sucks: Don't be that guy

Originally Posted by Cedrik

That's right. A Canadian study indicated 75% of avy deaths are via asphyxia vs 24% by trauma .

But this is a statistic from Canada, and thus doesn't apply to Deer Creek, Colorado (home of TEAM ORANGE EXTREME! OMG!).



did you see that one time where TEAM ORANGE EXTREME! went riding in helicopter?!?! that was sooo sick, they were boosting and shit! mad props. .... .represent....

Originally Posted by Tips^Up

I wear my seatbelt.

I actually go the other way and put a big piece of rebar where my cars airbag used to be. Makes me drive EXTRA carefully.

Thanks to Alec's touring partner for posting his story. If it makes someone speak up about feeling sketched up you've helped out.

So I'm all for Air Bags, think they're great and can't wait to see what they evolve into.

But......... after watching the ORANGE EXTREME video, anyone else think this was staged?
I mean,
1. ski into area that will obviously slide

2. once the slope begins to fracture, just stand there and don't do anything. no trying to get out of the way, nothing. just stand there....

3. once you get caught, pull the cord and ride it out.

The whole thing was in a low consequence zone, a small slope.

Was it contrived?

post # 379=wong fowum jongs.

airbags=whole new sport. let the shit show continue.......................

rog

Originally Posted by Tips^Up

There is a perfectly fanfuckingtastic example of this tool saving a fellow winter sport athlete's life. Regardless of how this person got into an avalanche, there would likely have been a different outcome had she not been wearing the pack and had the wherewithall, knowledge and skill to use it. This is a vivid example of how, if properly used, this could potentially be the difference between life and death.

Really? It looked to me like she was likely gonna be ok no matter what. Of course, we're talking about that in retrospect, here. There were some pretty nasty looking meatgrinders in there, so there was some luck involved, for sure. But, my main point is, the way the slide unfolded, I doubt the airbag had much of an effect? Honest question to the peanut gallery. (I'd still be pulling mine in that, reguardless, because it could have gone down many other ways.)

Originally Posted by Lindahl

Really? It looked to me like a pretty "pedestrian" slide. She was likely gonna be ok no matter what. Of course, we're talking about that in retrospect, here. There were some pretty nasty looking meatgrinders in there, so there was some luck involved, for sure. But, my main point is, the slide was small enough that I doubt the airbag had much of an effect? Honest question to the peanut gallery. (I'd still be pulling mine in that, reguardless.)

You're the 3rd person at least I have seen say that (2 on TTips), and I feel like you people were watching a different slide than I was. Was the debris pile 10' deep at the bottom? Of course not. Was it deep enough to bury/kill someone? Sure looks like it to me. Of course, if buried, all of those other people would likely have dug her out quickly. But watching the video and saying "see how she's visible the whole time? not that big a slide" ignores that one reason -- possibly the reason -- she remains visible is because of the airbag. For fuck's sake, a guy died in bounds at Winter Park in a very small slide, and one hand was above the snow! It doesn't take much, and this slide was much bigger.

Sure, this slide wasn't a monster, but I'm not really sure I want to ski with anyone who says "eh, not that big of a slide, not really a big deal."

Originally Posted by Tips^Up

I can't believe some of you idiots are saying an airbag is a bad thing and only gaper jongs use them. You hard asses have probably never made a poor decision in your life. You probably don't wear seltbelts, they're only for jong gaper newbie drivers.

There is a perfectly fanfuckingtastic example of this tool saving a fellow winter sport athlete's life. Regardless of how this person got into an avalanche, there would likely have been a different outcome had she not been wearing the pack and had the wherewithall, knowledge and skill to use it. This is a vivid example of how, if properly used, this could potentially be the difference between life and death. If I could afford one, I think I'd buy it tomorrow. Maybe I should show that clip to my parents, see if they agree my life is worth $500 or whatever an airbag costs (this sales pitch didn't work with beacon shovel probe...or the BD burial video for the Avalung...)

RIP to our dead companions. One is too many, there have been way too many this season.

I wear my seatbelt.

Apart from the internet name-calling specialists, I don't think sensible people are going to say only a jong would use an airbag. But that naive or uneducated people are going to see an airbag as a get-out-of-avalanche-free card, and that's bad.

I think some people will see the video that way, which is a problem. It doesn't really seem to be a fantastic example of anything. It shows the device works, but it also shows a situation that never should have happened in the first place due to really bad decision making. Many times more people will watch the airbag video than will watch the video montanaskier posted of the UAC demonstrating the hard slab sliding in a pit. (I know, they're from different states, but it's the same principle.)

What's up Ray D!!

Equipment is not a substitute for education. Equipment doesn't make bad decisions, people do.
But,
Just because you take an avalanche class and think you know your shit, doesn't mean you will make good decisions.

A lot of you don't get it.
Let me state it plainly-

Alecs Barton might still be alive had he used an airbag pack

Bullshit. an airbag isn't going to save anybody who gets sent through 2000 vertical feet of strainers.

^^^
That's pretty much what I'm thinking. 2400 vertical feet of rock and tree strewn couloir/gulley doesn't care if you're wearing an airbag.

Originally Posted by Danno

You're the 3rd person at least I have seen say that (2 on TTips), and I feel like you people were watching a different slide than I was. Was the debris pile 10' deep at the bottom? Of course not. Was it deep enough to bury/kill someone? Sure looks like it to me. Of course, if buried, all of those other people would likely have dug her out quickly. But watching the video and saying "see how she's visible the whole time? not that big a slide" ignores that one reason -- possibly the reason -- she remains visible is because of the airbag. For fuck's sake, a guy died in bounds at Winter Park in a very small slide, and one hand was above the snow! It doesn't take much, and this slide was much bigger.

Sure, this slide wasn't a monster, but I'm not really sure I want to ski with anyone who says "eh, not that big of a slide, not really a big deal"

I was in no way saying "not really a big deal". There's no way in hell I'd be ok with being caught in that or much smaller ones.

Watched it again. Its a little bigger than I remembered, but the end impression I had about the airbag during this event was the same (which is what I remembered). The airbag COULD have been useful in the slide, but the way she was caught and rode it, it looked to me like it had little effect on the end result. The debris was mostly below her the whole ride, and the airbag appeared to be well above the snow (little effect) for most of the ride. It could have unfolded a lot of other ways, some of them with the airbag playing an important role (which is why an airbag is always a good idea), but this time? I don't see it. Her board wasnt even buried.

I've updated my original post to reflect my thoughts after watching it again.

Stop speculating about Alecs' incident. It's not productive.

In other news, fucking hell:

http://www.selkirkwilderness.com/gal...se_feb_3_2012/

Originally Posted by coldfeet

Apart from the internet name-calling specialists, I don't think sensible people are going to say only a jong would use an airbag. But that naive or uneducated people are going to see an airbag as a get-out-of-avalanche-free card, and that's bad.

I think some people will see the video that way, which is a problem. It doesn't really seem to be a fantastic example of anything. It shows the device works, but it also shows a situation that never should have happened in the first place due to really bad decision making. Many times more people will watch the airbag video than will watch the video montanaskier posted of the UAC demonstrating the hard slab sliding in a pit. (I know, they're from different states, but it's the same principle.)

Well stated.

Originally Posted by MiCol

Dude if you borrowed that from the post on the BCA thread by Yuri I approve....but give Yuri the credit he deserves....

Yep you got me, I thought it was too hilarious not to repeat.

Originally Posted by Lone Star

Bullshit. an airbag isn't going to save anybody who gets sent through 2000 vertical feet of strainers.

Really, you just don't know that. An airbag does offer some protection against trauma. It would have offered him a better chance than if he had, not having one.

Should have posted this here earlier as well... more to come.

I was one of the two people with Alecs, a top notch dude, and a great rider. I'm only here to try to pass on what I learned from his terribly untimely death, because that's what I would want if it were me. Right or wrong, I'm posting anonymously because I think it will help keep it to the point, which is to learn as much as we can. I'll try to keep it to the objective lessons learned, in hopes of helping others, and I'll post anything else and expound as his family wishes. If anyone finds this inappropriate or offensive, please let me know and I will take it down or change it accordingly. I should probably take more time to refine this, but some of these lessons are pertinent to the current conditions. I know everyone here knows all of this, but I certainly need to hear it again. I'm typing these out the same way i'm saying them to myself, so it's just me that I'm being angry and stern with, not you.

The basics:
-Know snow. Take formal classes as well as reading books and learning from partners. Apply the knowledge liberally and often.

-Be very comfortable with your rescue gear at the very minimum. You should be an expert with it. Practice with scenarios as close to real life as you can possibly make them.

-Bring your cell phone, every time.

-Beacon. Shovel. Probe. Double, triple, quadruple, and then have your partner check that you have them, in working order, every time.

-Put new batteries in your beacon, right now. They're too cheap to do otherwise.

-Wear a helmet. No excuses.

-Know CPR/ First Aid, preferably WFR/OEC/EMT or higher, it's invaluable to be comfortable with those skills.


The decision making:
-Understand that hard slabs don't necessarily give the obvious warnings. Numerous pole stabs felt stable. We heard nor saw nor felt signs of collapsing or cracking in the snowpack. There was no significant new snow in the last day. There was some windloading which we had talked about, but it seemed like we were on a windward slope, if there was any wind effect. The temperature was on the rise, but it didn't seem out of the ordinary, and the sun was not on the slope. There were plenty of other slides previously, but few on our chosen aspect, and overall activity seemed to be slowing. I know this is all subjective, but the snowpack felt and seemed OK. It was obviously not. This is no excuse for not taking the overall weak snowpack into account, but that's what happened. You can't rely on only the "red flags" with hard slabs.

-Understand that you will, or already have, likely skied on a hard slab and gotten lucky that it was just stable enough, or you didn't find the sweet spot. Raise your index of suspicion accordingly.

-Dig a (deep) pit in unusual conditions like these. Even though they're highly condition and area specific, it might be the only thing that tips you off.

-Make sure everyone is informed about the terrain, as well as avy conditions, and that all decisions are made as a group, with each individual informed. Make it a "time out" or whatever it takes.

-Speak up, even if you're comfortable with the decisions being made, if you're not certain what kind of terrain you're getting into, ASK!

-Don't be a back seater, even if you're inexperienced, or new to the area, SPEAK UP!

-Don't let the presence of an "expert" or person you trust allow you to drop your guard. To be clear, the fault here lies completely with the person/group that allows it to let their guard down. Don't ever think you're an expert.

-Know the heuristic traps (1st bluebird day, expert, etc)



Enormous thanks to the UAC for the extraordinary, nonjudgemental investigation. I'm eternally grateful to Alta Ski Patrol, Wasatch Powderbird Guides, and the rest of Wasatch Backcountry Rescue for instantly dropping everything to come to the rescue, and going above and beyond in making sure we were safe and well taken care of.

Originally Posted by Trackhead

It's sad, but these circumstances are the proverbial mouse trap, and seem to play themselves out all too often. Slide activity slows down, people "get away" with stuff and the little voice of reason on your shoulder quits talking in your ear. The sun comes out, and you make one ill decision that changes everything.

Hard to say it better than that.

Originally Posted by sfotex

Shitty snowpack structure is a shitty snowpack structure and that trumps everything else for me...

Yes.

Originally Posted by beaterdit

Found some pretty bomber snow that's starting to heal up nicely but also noted lingering deep instability with stout slabs over the top. Hard to trigger but if you hit the sweet spot...

Thing was, most slopes we checked out looked pretty good where the snow was deep. The faceting below the rain crust that most of the latest slides have been running on is now 2-4' deep, pretty hard to trigger it now where it's more deeply buried.

We didn't dig any pits, but this is spot on from my perspective.

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

PowderTurd flew more or less nonstop all day dropping its load on low angle garbage but in light of the sad news that's probably not all bad... the low angle, not the flying. Also saw from a distance a good sized skier triggered avi on Holy Toledo but the skier was able to get away from it to the side.

Wasatch Powderbird Guides pulled out all the stops to help mags in need. Everyone will have their own opinion, but they stopped at nothing, and were nothing less than heroic.

Originally Posted by brooks_mcclintock

Sad news boys and girls, good news is that only one has occured since this last storm cycle. Don't get the leap of steep fever boys and girls, stay in those mids to lower elevations! Powder is still round those areas!

YES.

In short, listen to Alecs:

Originally Posted by Alx88

I see nothing's changed here since yesterday, including the stellar epic sick freshnass to be had. We had 5 on the slope today, still nothing. Mountain Mark (that's your new nickname) decided he better submit an ob worthy of UAC standards so we dug a pit. NE aspect at ~9,500 in BCC. 85cm total snowpack, 55cm of that was new storm snow (starting last thursday night or so). There was a tiny discrepancy within the storm, one at 25 cm. Whacked the fuck out of an extended column (that's how I was taught in my avy courses) and nothing. But who gives a fuck anyway, its dangerous out there, stay inside at all costs.

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RIP good buddy, thanks for the stoke, and a beautiful day in the mountains.

Thanks everyone for your sympathy and thoughtful comments. I really don't hold myself responsible for Alecs' decision. I'm glad I shared that story because it will help me remember all the red flags I saw in his behavior and my own. His partners told me he was using the ECT results from Thursday to justify his decision on Saturday. He clearly had forgotten the fact that pit tests should never be used as evidence that a slope is safe (not to mention the test was done on a different day, aspect, and elevation). He first suggested hitting the west couloir of Argenta but his partners declined because they could clearly see it was a steep slide path. I'm confident that west-north west aspects in general were, and still are, more dangerous because the slab is thinner (weaker bridge) due to wind scouring. Just before he took off down the west couloir one of his partners warned him to be cautious of open areas. Sure enough, the instant he rode out of the trees he triggered the slide.

I recently experimented with the propagation saw test and have found it to be much more effective at demonstrating deep slab instability than the ECT. This test is commonly used in BC and other areas that typically have deep slab problems. Of course, sticking a pole in the snow is sometimes all that's really necessary to know there's a problem but this test could be a great way to scare an over zealous partner. The sound of the column collapsing and sight of it sliding out is always impressive.

Here's a video of my friend Trent doing this test: http://vimeo.com/m/36119535

Re: airbags

After having one and worn it most of the avi pros/guides I know would rather ski without a beacon than without an airbag. Of course an airbag only helps YOUR odds and can't find your partner so that choice would never be made but statistics on live recovery in bag vs no bag scenarios show that a bag deployed in a slide saves lives beyond the statistics for non-bag situations.

The mental game involving knowledge. risk, gear, tolerances,etc trumps all of course.

Originally Posted by Lone Star

Bullshit. an airbag isn't going to save anybody who gets sent through 2000 vertical feet of strainers.

Spoken like a true resort skier.

Originally Posted by Bunion

Quote Originally Posted by Lone Star View Post




Who in the fuck are you, ya jackass?

Taking that ride, airbag or not was probably a sure ticket to the morgue.

The forces involved are typically not consistent with survival.

In our area in the past 10 years there have been 2 accidents that involved a ride like this one, the only difference was the distances were much shorter.. In one case the head injuries were unsurvivable.

In the other the victim was torn in half from impacting timber.

An airbag may help in some cases, but you are spouting horseshit for little apparent reason.

an air bag is not going to save you everytime from severe injuries, but there are instances where they have helped in complex terrain.
you in-bred self important piece of shit.

Originally Posted by Bunion

Wow.... late breaking news, thanks for that deep and insightful analysis.

Spoken like a true resort skier.

coming from someone who has skied the same pile of rocks their whole career, that means so much.

i'm touched.

Can I'z have 1?

knows....

sorry

I meant noes.

or nose

or