Thread: Death sucks: Don't be that guy

Wondering where the ski cut was made and to what safe zone? Anyone know?

I'm not sure why, but I don't buy the idea of amateurs (I use that word loosely pretty much to mean anybody not in an official control capacity : patrol/cdot/ etc) being out there ski cutting for other people's safety, it's not your job, I have no idea how well you know how to do it, or if you do at all, I have know idea if you know the slopes below you are clear, are the slopes below you clear? Will you put others at risk because you have to be rescued (one of the most overlooked douchenozzle things of going somewhere risky solo, or even in a pair).

This my 2 cents, but if something is so risky it needs to be ski cut before being skied, it's probably time for a new terrain choice for the day. I don't think there is a hard and fast answer to this, but that's just my bit.

Also, let me get this straight. Local papers publish about the 3 avalanche deaths in 24 hours, and then people go decide it's a good idea to ski the 35-40 degree face of peak 6 today? Like did you not even see the massive shit going on in Peak 7 with the exact fucking same pitch and nearly same aspect. Jesus christ, you people live under a fucking rock?

Originally Posted by volklpowdermaniac

then people go decide it's a good idea to ski the 35-40 degree face of peak 6 today? Like did you not even see the massive shit going on in Peak 7 with the exact fucking same pitch and nearly same aspect. Jesus christ, you people live under a fucking rock?

Wow. Is that really happening?

Some people are immune to avalanches. That, and they probably thought the newspaper article was about the hockey team.

Originally Posted by JoeStrummer

Looks to me like it is the ski cut along the roll, center right up top.

Note how it broke in the shallow part of the wind slab and then propagated across the small bowl through the shallower convex slope and timber and then on down the ridge.

i'm pretty sure it was a line more to the looker's left heading into the last slide path on the skier's right. you can see a track above the big crown at about tree level on the left horizon. looks to me it probably triggered in the thin zone on the rocks, then propagated...everywhere. the only reason he survived was because the snowpack was thin where he was.

I think you are both talking about the same place. lookers left to right. Seems there was a photo very much like this one posted a few years back. if I remember correctly the crown looks to be in about the same place. Old school NOLS. Snow is just something to walk through on the way to the climbing. Glad everyone is OK. Imagine the perp is a little embarrassed.

Originally Posted by Danno

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate,

yes you are, but that's fine! I hear ya. There are two sides to every story and i think that this particular run/runout zone is unique in that there is a huge hazard right above the long popular runout. This is an unsolvable problem and both skiers above and those using the runout are liable for their own safety and decisionmaking. That is not debatable, imo.

I made my case that I think the guy up top was selfish and ignorant for even choosing to ski that run on that day in those conditions, knowing that cutting the bowl could result in a big ripper and BIG consequence. That's where i stand on the matter. There are clearly folks on both sides...and the polarization of it all really feels like a political party line discussion! Crazy...

That said, I think i'd personally avoid the run and the runout in anything but stable conditions so as to avoid this scenario entirely. I don't wanna die, and i surely don't wanna die at the hands of some yahoo skiing above me.

cheers

Originally Posted by jmedslc

That said, I think i'd personally avoid the run and the runout in anything but stable conditions so as to avoid this scenario entirely.

That, in a nutshell is the most interesting thing about this incident and the EVI blog.

People will always have different levels of tolerance of risk. 10 years ago the majority of BC skiers would have avoided that slope under those conditions.

With better skis, better beacons, avalungs, airbags and most importantly more advanced avalanche education, many peoples level of risk tolerance have changed.

BC and Sidecountry skiing are no longer the fringe or less popular activities, they are now in the mainstream and these kind of incidents are a result.

The trigger man wasn't working as an avi professional on the day of the ski cut/release but it sounds to me like he had plenty of experience in that area and was putting that skill and experience to use. Same with the EVI blog.

Not that it is good or bad, it is now the state of where skiing has evolved and is a worthy topic of discussion at trail-heads, in bars and most importantly between partners heading out for a tour.

Originally Posted by randosteve

i'm pretty sure it was a line more to the looker's left heading into the last slide path on the skier's right. you can see a track above the big crown at about tree level on the left horizon. looks to me it probably triggered in the thin zone on the rocks, then propagated...everywhere. the only reason he survived was because the snowpack was thin where he was.

Looks like that to me as well. Cut across the thick (safer) zone, so you're moving through the thin (trigger) zone with some speed.

Ignoring all issues associated with a busy runout/drainage and visibility:

Who knows what was going through his head, for sure, but someone familiar enough with this zone, may know the trigger areas well enough to execute a ski cut with significant purpose, despite the problems with ski cutting hardslabs in the presence of deep persistent layers. I would think one could get pretty predictable releases in these conditions, if you know your trigger points well enough (and GTFO). 1000 times out there (what I've seen thrown around) would likely get you to that point.

I'm relatively new to the continental snowpack, but I figured I'd raise the question as to maybe he did know what he was doing in terms of predictable releases. If that is his ski cut, then it looks pretty damn well executed (possibly unintentional). Get some speed across the thick snowpack, cut through the trigger point with some speed and into your safety zone. Then if all goes well (no release, or shallow release), ski the thick snowpack in the gully, which avoids other possible trigger points. You still have to worry about convexities and other stressers, of course.

Granted, it's a very different story when you don't know the terrain so intimately, but what if one does? I think this question should, at the very least, be asked. Can't wait to ask the same to the experts I know.

Ski cuts?!?!

If you're relying on ski cuts in a BC snow pack you are already outside an appropriate margin of safety IMO.

The past few seasons in CO, and I suspect through out the InterMountain west, has seen on average less unstable snowpack than this year due to the extensive depth hoar development/exceptionally thin snowpack and long dry spell. I think that many BC skiers who have only experienced the past few seasons or who have forgotten how bad it can be are candidates for the Avy suckerpunch.

That said my opinion is that now is a critical time to get out and investigate the snowpack, given that you do it while practicing terrain management to effectively keeping off of and not under Avy terrain. Some if the best lessons that I've learned have been from being terrified after the 27degree slope i was on collapsed and would have slid had it been steeper.

Originally Posted by Bunion

That, in a nutshell is the most interesting thing about this incident and the EVI blog.

People will always have different levels of tolerance of risk. 10 years ago the majority of BC skiers would have avoided that slope under those conditions.

With better skis, better beacons, avalungs, airbags and most importantly more advanced avalanche education, many peoples level of risk tolerance have changed.

BC and Sidecountry skiing are no longer the fringe or less popular activities, they are now in the mainstream and these kind of incidents are a result.

The trigger man wasn't working as an avi professional on the day of the ski cut/release but it sounds to me like he had plenty of experience in that area and was putting that skill and experience to use. Same with the EVI blog.

Not that it is good or bad, it is now the state of where skiing has evolved and is a worthy topic of discussion at trail-heads, in bars and most importantly between partners heading out for a tour.

PostOfTheThread

Ehh, I would say that 09/10 was a pretty scary snowpack as well. Last year? Whole 'nother ballpark.

Originally Posted by Bunion

That, in a nutshell is the most interesting thing about this incident and the EVI blog.

People will always have different levels of tolerance of risk. 10 years ago the majority of BC skiers would have avoided that slope under those conditions.

With better skis, better beacons, avalungs, airbags and most importantly more advanced avalanche education, many peoples level of risk tolerance have changed.

BC and Sidecountry skiing are no longer the fringe or less popular activities, they are now in the mainstream and these kind of incidents are a result.

The trigger man wasn't working as an avi professional on the day of the ski cut/release but it sounds to me like he had plenty of experience in that area and was putting that skill and experience to use. Same with the EVI blog.

Not that it is good or bad, it is now the state of where skiing has evolved and is a worthy topic of discussion at trail-heads, in bars and most importantly between partners heading out for a tour.

Yeah, i would add/clarify that now that BC skiing is fully mainstream, we have the old schoolers + hundreds of newbies getting out and the BC areas are absolutely crowded. This knowledge would cause me to stop and consider the potential consequences of my actions within this perspective.

The reality is that people generally don't give a fuck about anyone else. I see it on the highway mostly - douchebags on the phone, texting, eating, all while speeding and weaving in traffic putting everyone's lives in danger. I think this 'ME ME ME' attitude carries forth to the BC ski areas and while ppl are looking out for their own safety, they're not looking past the end of their nose and seeing the big picture. "Hmm, if this thing goes big, i could actually KILL someone".

His thought process was prolly something like - 'If i'm gonna ski this, I'm gonna throw a huge cut in before I do'. Fair enough. But the fact remains that he did not take into consideration the welfare of people possibly around him. The liberal in me says that he has that responsibility. Obviously, everyone doesn't agree w that sorta mentality.

If nothing else, this (non)event has got people thinking, and hopefully the schleps that ski Glory and use that runout will think twice about doing so next time.

Originally Posted by jmedslc

yes you are, but that's fine! I hear ya. There are two sides to every story and i think that this particular run/runout zone is unique in that there is a huge hazard right above the long popular runout. This is an unsolvable problem and both skiers above and those using the runout are liable for their own safety and decisionmaking. That is not debatable, imo.

I made my case that I think the guy up top was selfish and ignorant for even choosing to ski that run on that day in those conditions, knowing that cutting the bowl could result in a big ripper and BIG consequence. That's where i stand on the matter. There are clearly folks on both sides...and the polarization of it all really feels like a political party line discussion! Crazy...

That said, I think i'd personally avoid the run and the runout in anything but stable conditions so as to avoid this scenario entirely. I don't wanna die, and i surely don't wanna die at the hands of some yahoo skiing above me.

cheers

I really wasn't playing devil's advocate (which I understand to mean taking a contrary position for the purpose of spurring debate or causing the other side to defend its position). I honestly did not understand where you were coming from or the particulars of this spot. Thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure where I stand on this, you and bunion have done a great job on this last page explaining the conundrum and how we got here, and I don't know what the answer is.

This morning on the WGN news in Chicago, they had a story about a young guy that just died in an avalanche in Colorado. Left behind a wife and 2 kids under 3. From the pics it looked like the Vail area and how he had lived out there for a number of years and really loved skiing. My first comment to my wife is what the fuck was he doing out in the high risk conditions with a yound family. Guys wife is crying that he'll never know his children. Should have thought about that before he went out.

Originally Posted by Millsie

This morning on the WGN news in Chicago, they had a story about a young guy that just died in an avalanche in Colorado. Left behind a wife and 2 kids under 3. From the pics it looked like the Vail area and how he had lived out there for a number of years and really loved skiing. My first comment to my wife is what the fuck was he doing out in the high risk conditions with a yound family. Guys wife is crying that he'll never know his children. Should have thought about that before he went out.

Yeah, that's the stuff that makes all that "died doing what they loved" bullshit seem even more weak and hollow than it already is.

The most important observation here is to point out the incorrect use of the term schlep.

Other than that, glad no-one died.

Oh, the drama!

Originally Posted by rideit

The most important observation here is to point out the incorrect use of the term schlep.

Other than that, glad no-one died.

Oh, the drama!

nice one. thanks for the correction.

I'm here for you, man.

Schlub is probably what you were looking for.

Or schlemazel.

Originally Posted by rideit

I'm here for you, man.

Schlub is probably what you were looking for.

Or schlemazel.

or maybe "unsuspecting lemmings"?

What have you.

Having never been yelled at by the Mayor I can only imagine the Big Butthurt that will follow today's EVI safety blog.

I keep trying to like this site and hope it goes in a postive direction, but it is all over the map. Removing the tagline the other day was a step in the right direction, one step forward two step backward...

"He represents everything that is wrong with EV"

Maybe not, Using a personal website whose intended purpose is to educate users about the dangers and conditions of a backcountry zone to spew personal feelings about interactions with another area user= Butthurt to da max.

You gonna call someone out, do it in the parking lot, Mano y mano

The Mayor of East Vail Bio and 1/25/12 Report

Meet the man who defines grace under pressure. If you’ve been screamed at while minding your own business up in EV, he is your man. An established photographer who still feels the need to be the biggest blowhard in the history of EV, he has been exploiting the EV zone for years for his own benefit and looking for unsuspecting travelers to unleash his enormous ego and wealth of snow safety knowledge on you in his own special way.

Ironically, he got his ass handed to him in CDC. Now he likes to ski Tweeners and yell at people across the valley about what they are doing wrong. No doubt he has perfected the profile sunset pow shot and ridden that donkey to the ground, but he still persists, like a bad weak layer in the snowpack. Although his list of bad backcountry decisions is as long as his photo credits, he is the definitive voice in EV.

Here’s to you mayor of EV! Self- elected to the fourteenth consecutive term. Master of all he sees and you as well if you venture into his district! Step aside and show him the proper respect!

He represents everything that is wrong in EV. Period.

Jeff Cricco? He dissed EVI on the CAIC avalanche observation page a couple weeks ago for ski-cutting hard slabs roped to trees.

Grumpy Curmudgeon VS. Spraylords..... lame vs. lame

At this rate, people are going to start packing their own charges. It's inevitable.