Thread: Death sucks: Don't be that guy

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

I hereby move that from this day forth, airbag packs shall be called "gaper bags". That is all.

Yeah, and beacons shall be called trans-noobi-jong-itters, because only people with awesome avalanche skills should be in the backcountry because they will never need one because only noob jongs get caught in avalanches.

Fuck You

you steaming piece of pious bullshit

Pertaining to the use of "air bag packs"

This

Originally Posted by good4nothing

4: One group of shrewd educated, practiced, backcountry travelers will add an airbag to the toolset with which they are already adept, not allow it to play into their decision making, and will see decreased morbidity/mortality.

Not this

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

I hereby move that from this day forth, airbag packs shall be called "gaper bags". That is all.

Any tool that I might help to mitigate underlying risks that are omnipresent is not a bad thing
as long as it doesn't factor into a judgement process.

In the end there is no guarantee and or replacement for thinking for yourself and practicing a heads up game with awareness.

I'm buying studfinders. Fuck this facebook IPO.

Can we nuke this thread already?

What?! This thread rules. A couple more pages and I'm going to blow my airbag!

Carry on.

Pretty awesome thread all, once you sift through the shitty parts. I'm a backcountry n00b and also youngish, which I guess means I'm fucked... I'm trying to educate myself the best I can, and take it easy- especially with a year like this. I appreciate the information, and bits of wisdom.

While I am pretty surprised by the decisions some folks are making that lead to death or near death by avalanche, think of the many other shitty decisions that are common practice, such as: skiing intoxicated. We've all done it. It makes shit way more fun. But realistically skiing drunk is probably about as smart as driving drunk if you really think about it. People are fucking idiots. Accept it. Realize that you are that idiot often, and then stop being an asshat and impart some of your knowledge on someone who clearly needs the education. I'm sure you weren't born with avalanche awareness, and I'm sure you've made some shit decisions too.

Originally Posted by lpkdz

People are fucking idiots. Accept it. Realize that you are that idiot often...

Hate to be judgemental, but I'd bet that you are he more often than some. Sorry.

Originally Posted by peds

Hate to be judgemental, but I'd bet that you are he more often than some. Sorry.

Care to elaborate on that presumption?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but asphyxiation is the most common cause of death in an avalanche, rather than trauma, right? But I've heard that it's possible to put so much pressure on your chest when you're buried that you can't adequately oxygenate, so something like an avalung wouldn't even be helpful. Does anyone know how often that may be a factor? Or would an avalung really be the answer in most cases?

Originally Posted by lpkdz

skiing intoxicated. We've all done it. It makes shit way more fun.

You're way off point here. Clearly your experiences have been different, but not a single person I know or spend time with makes a practice of skiing impaired. Sure, lots of people on these forums are perpetually stoned, including when they tour; and I'm certainly not here to pass judgement at all - I just know I have zero interest in being out with someone who's compromised their ability to perform a rescue, or make sharp, well-reasoned decisions in the first place. And while there might be a time and place to get a little crazy on skis - like moonlight meadow skipping at a ski-touring cabin with mushrooms in your belly - being in that kind of headspace on a routine basis is totally indefensible.

To your questions about the data regarding asphyxiation versus trauma and other avalanche safety-net issues (avalung) - these topics have and will continue to be discussed ad nauseam in Slide Zone, among other places.

Originally Posted by lpkdz

Correct me if I'm wrong, but asphyxiation is the most common cause of death in an avalanche, rather than trauma, right?

That's right. A Canadian study indicated 75% of avy deaths are via asphyxia vs 24% by trauma http://www.cmaj.ca/content/180/5/507.long, though "We found trauma was the cause of death in 24% of fatalities but another 10% of supposed asphyxia deaths suffered lethal trauma bringing the total proportion of trauma to 34%. This is 6 times greater than the reported rate of trauma in Europe." Europe having a lot less tree skiing than Canada.

Every increase in safety technology increases risk tolerance. If you don't believe this, leave all your safety gear (beacon, shovel, probe, airbag) at home and go for a tour. I'll bet you really dial back the objective. The key is to not fully use up the increased safety factor by fully increasing the risk behavior.

For my first "trans sierra" tour, the low route, we used avalanche cords fer cryin' out loud. I now ski with a gaper sack, because mostly it's just my wife and me touring, which means only one person available to dig out the other, assuming we're both not caught. We ski the same stuff we did prior to getting the airbags in 2005, so they haven't changed behavior, but that's probably because I'm a conservative (objective-wise, not politically) old fart who's had several close calls with avys (all with guides) and has had a friend killed in one (decades ago).

Originally Posted by AlpenChronicHabitual

Pertaining to the use of "air bag packs"

This


Not this


Any tool that I might help to mitigate underlying risks that are omnipresent is not a bad thing
as long as it doesn't factor into a judgement process.

In the end there is no guarantee and or replacement for thinking for yourself and practicing a heads up game with awareness.

Because the float packs have the stated purpose of keeping you unburied, and may work well at this task, they in the minds of gapers will negate the need for beacon, shovel, probe, how to shovel, how to search, and how to probe. Just pull the ripcord.

BTW, this is much the same thing that happened in the caving community when cheap long-running LED flashlights came out - suddenly you had a lot more noobs getting into trouble / killed / lost because of the false security that the new tools brought.

I think the float packs are a great thing - for people that know what they're doing. Meesh didn't know shit and yet it saved her. Gaper heaven.

There is a lot avalanche pros in this thread... Of course there is some good stuff in here from the people we expect it from but damn some of you need the shut the fuck up. Mistakes are made in the backcountry daily, and just because you haven't been caught up doesn't mean your doing it right. I am pretty damn cautious, I know it at times annoys my BC partners, but I have seen shit rip out in the exact spot I was "skiing the safe line" earlier in the week. Dumb luck can play a huge roll, although it is true we have to learn from others mistakes. Getting big headed about what you know about BC safety isn't any good for anybody.

Its sounds like the BC in a lot of places is fucked right now (not that uncommon), be careful out there regardless if I think your acting like a fucktard or not.

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

I think the float packs are a great thing - for people that know what they're doing. Meesh didn't know shit and yet it saved her. Gaper heaven.

So people should die for their mistakes, unless they 'know what they are doing'? Do you know how stupid you are? Fuck you you stupid worthless cunt.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

So people should die for their mistakes, unless they 'know what they are doing'? Do you know how stupid you are? Fuck you you stupid worthless cunt.

Please. I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy airbags, even gapers. Tools that do seem to work well even for the uneducated, and do so in theatric fashion like we see here, are going to get more uneducated, dangerous people into the BC. Hopefully they learn and stop taking uneducated risks before they die when their magic airbag (and to a lesser extent their magic beacon, shovel, or probe) couldn't save them.

Originally Posted by Cedrik

Every increase in safety technology increases risk tolerance. If you don't believe this, leave all your safety gear (beacon, shovel, probe, airbag) at home and go for a tour. I'll bet you really dial back the objective. The key is to not fully use up the increased safety factor by fully increasing the risk behavior.

This.

This place is now officially the World of Warcraft of skiing. Think I will relocate to Alpine Zone, hopefully Greg won't realize JoeStrummer is an alias.

yup TGR shitshow exemplified. This and the Solitude thread. Disappointing

Just gotta say that between these two quotes, you are cracking me up

Originally Posted by JoeStrummer

This place is now officially the World of Warcraft of skiing. Think I will relocate to Alpine Zone, hopefully Greg won't realize JoeStrummer is an alias.

I can't decide who I find more irritating, all the Jewish grandmothers on this site who think you will get killed at the trailhead on a 4/5 day, or the self-appointed Jedi Knights who read some Tremper on the crapper and think they are the Stephen Hawking of Snowpack. But after reading the claptrap above, I think it's the latter.

Originally Posted by LeeLau

yup TGR shitshow exemplified. This and the Solitude thread. Disappointing

but not unexpected

http://vimeo.com/36119535

beware the hard slab

Wow. Just read the thread in its entirety. As someone new to the BC, thank you to all that contributed... Lots of things to think about.

Originally Posted by montanaskier

http://vimeo.com/36119535

beware the hard slab

I like these types of clips (like the one from Butler Gulch a couple of weeks back). As someone who doesn't dig many pits or get in the backcountry very often, I find these very educational.

Originally Posted by coreshot-tourettes

I hereby move that from this day forth, airbag packs shall be called "gaper bags". That is all.

Dude if you borrowed that from the post on the BCA thread by Yuri I approve....but give Yuri the credit he deserves....
spray like that dont just come from cats. Хотите потанцевать
Одного языка никогда недостаточно

Originally Posted by good4nothing

This particular sequence of blown up shots still sticks with me, and the little red dot they're magnifying is the dummy/airbag.

That must be it....big f-ing slide

Originally Posted by MiCol

That must be it....big f-ing slide

I can't believe some of you idiots are saying an airbag is a bad thing and only gaper jongs use them. You hard asses have probably never made a poor decision in your life. You probably don't wear seltbelts, they're only for jong gaper newbie drivers.

There is a perfectly fanfuckingtastic example of this tool saving a fellow winter sport athlete's life. Regardless of how this person got into an avalanche, there would likely have been a different outcome had she not been wearing the pack and had the wherewithall, knowledge and skill to use it. This is a vivid example of how, if properly used, this could potentially be the difference between life and death. If I could afford one, I think I'd buy it tomorrow. Maybe I should show that clip to my parents, see if they agree my life is worth $500 or whatever an airbag costs (this sales pitch didn't work with beacon shovel probe...or the BD burial video for the Avalung...)

RIP to our dead companions. One is too many, there have been way too many this season.

I wear my seatbelt.