Thread: The College Industrial Complex

Originally Posted by Triage

Things are different now, but $150k is still too much for most but $40k at a public university is not too bad.

$40K in total cost at a state university ?? Where ? Virginia is about $18-$20K a year all in for about $80K for 4 years without scholarships. Even the community colleges here have upped their costs. But if you attend comm. colleges in Va. and maintain 3.25 for 2 years you can transfer to any state university and graduate w/ a degree from that school (UVA, William & Mary, Va. Tech.) That's a good deal for folks that can't afford the living away from home costs and couldn't get in as freshman at a school like UVA (public ivy status).

Originally Posted by OSECS

$40K in total cost at a state university ?? Where ? Virginia is about $18-$20K a year all in for about $80K for 4 years without scholarships.

The average cost in 2011-12 for a public four-year colleges charge, on average, $8,244 in tuition and fees for in-state students. Some places are more, some are less. There are also a lot colleges that enable students to commute from home. The University of Utah, for example, is considered a commuter campus even though they also have student housing and all the other things associated with a major university. $80k @ Virginia is not awful for one of the best schools in the country.



Related to the topic of value and quality students who are assigned more reading and writing learn more. Those students who spend more hours studying alone learn more. Students taught by approachable faculty who enforce high expectations learn more.

Students majoring in the humanities, social sciences, hard sciences, and math do relatively well. Students majoring in business, education, and social work are less capable. Students whose financial aid came primarily in the form of grants learn more than those who were paying mostly with loans. Debt burdens can be psychological and temporal as well as financial, with students substituting work for education in order to manage their future obligations.

Where a person goes to school, what they study, how they pay for it and the quality of the instructors all matter a great deal and a substantial number of schools and students are not meeting college standards. But it's not necessarily a question of more or less government involvement but a question of the quality of American education institutions.

Originally Posted by hutash

As usual, DBT has no fuckin' clue what he is talking about, sees a worthless video that supports his preconceived notions, then posts on the interwebs his usual worthless spew..

As usual, most lefties are in denial that their feel good policies will eventually bankrupt us all and cost us our freedom.

There sure is a lot of hot air in here.

Originally Posted by OSECS

$40K in total cost at a state university ?? Where ? Virginia is about $18-$20K a year all in for about $80K for 4 years without scholarships. Even the community colleges here have upped their costs. But if you attend comm. colleges in Va. and maintain 3.25 for 2 years you can transfer to any state university and graduate w/ a degree from that school (UVA, William & Mary, Va. Tech.) That's a good deal for folks that can't afford the living away from home costs and couldn't get in as freshman at a school like UVA (public ivy status).

Wait...what? You're saying that keeping a 3.25 gpa at a virginia comm college for two years is a GUARENTEED admission to the College of William and Mary??? Without regard to forecasted student loading at william and mary? Or is it a lottery or space availability basis?? Either way, that is a pretty good deal. Will.& Mary is a well recognized school with a beautiful old campus. And they have a nationally recognized marine research intitute - the Institute of Marine Science.

Just looked up some goods on William and Mary....Thomas Jefferson studied there...and it now ranks as the 6th best public undergrad program in the US, although the school's ranking in totality is no where near #6. That's some pretty good bang for the buck for an annual tuition of just over $6000 (2007 prices) !! The only other schools with similar 'bang 4 the buck' are Berkely, Univ of Michigan, Indiana University-Bloomington (at least their school of business). I'm actually surprised that U of Virginia has #3 ranking, and that UCLA is as high as number #2. Not surprised at all by Berkeley's #1 status.

Plus, William and Mary has one of the best coffehouses(a true coffeehouse, not coffeshop) of a lot of campus' that I've been to....AROMA'S. It's very close proximity (steps away) to Colonial Williamsburg is another great plus!

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Originally Posted by Triage

The average cost in 2011-12 for a public four-year colleges charge, on average, $8,244 in tuition and fees for in-state students. Some places are more, some are less. There are also a lot colleges that enable students to commute from home. The University of Utah, for example, is considered a commuter campus even though they also have student housing and all the other things associated with a major university. $80k @ Virginia is not awful for one of the best schools in the country.



Related to the topic of value and quality students who are assigned more reading and writing learn more. Those students who spend more hours studying alone learn more. Students taught by approachable faculty who enforce high expectations learn more.

Students majoring in the humanities, social sciences, hard sciences, and math do relatively well. Students majoring in business, education, and social work are less capable. Students whose financial aid came primarily in the form of grants learn more than those who were paying mostly with loans. Debt burdens can be psychological and temporal as well as financial, with students substituting work for education in order to manage their future obligations.

Where a person goes to school, what they study, how they pay for it and the quality of the instructors all matter a great deal and a substantial number of schools and students are not meeting college standards.

I mean Virginia as in all state universities in Va. are around $18K not just UVA. We do have two top 10 ranked best public colleges (UVA and William & Mary), but they still cost the same as the middle of the road schools, and UVA takes a good number of out of state admissions. The $18K is for tuition and room and board, so commuting is an option that will save around $3-$5K a year I think.

Where the money for education makes a real diff is post graduate studies. Middle of the road UVA law grad @ $40K a year in tuition makes an average starting salary of $120K or more. William and Mary top 10 in their class, $60-100K ($25K yearly law tuition I think). University of Richmond Law, private school with $50K tuition for undergrad makes about $60K starting salary out of law school. Big spread.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

As usual, most lefties are in denial that their feel good policies will eventually bankrupt us all and cost us our freedom.

No matter what your opinion on education, the fact is that the video stated there is $870 billion of total student loan debt. Not a small amount, but that is 1/3rd the total cost of the Iraq war.

Keep things in perspective Dumbdumb Tard.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Where the money for education makes a real diff is post graduate studies. Middle of the road UVA law grad @ $40K a year in tuition makes an average starting salary of $120K or more. William and Mary top 10 in their class, $60-100K ($25K yearly law tuition I think). University of Richmond Law, private school with $50K tuition for undergrad makes about $60K starting salary out of law school. Big spread.

Big spread, indeed, and that's why value matters. The high price tag at some schools has a lot to do with Americans thinking we were richer than we are. Fewer people were discussing these things when America was booming. I think a lot of today's students are actually smarter than they were in the past. Among the very best students GPAs are higher, SAT scores are higher and their IQ tests are higher. Faced with the reality of the current job market that slow kid in high school who couldn't understand square roots is becoming a thing of the past.

The same shift will became necessary at the college level, "deep engagement with complex ideas and texts, difficult and often solitary study, the discipline to write, revise, and write again. What students need most aren't additional social opportunities and elaborate services. They need professors who assign a lot of reading and writing." However, replacing the entire system with University of Phoenix style private schools like the OP's video advocates and ending all government involvement is not the answer either.

Originally Posted by Powow

No matter what your opinion on education, the fact is that the video stated there is $870 billion of total student loan debt. Not a small amount, but that is 1/3rd the total cost of the Iraq war.

Keep things in perspective Dumbdumb Tard.

If that were the only problem it would still be a travesty. Unlike the war spending, that debt isn't being spread among the tax payers or financed by China. We are hanging it around the necks of young people trying to start out on the right foot....with NO WAY to escape the debt.

(Unless they just decide to work at McDonalds. Then they MAY be able to dump the debt on the tax payer)

That's a lot of money for such a small and vulnerable group of people. New grads have debt that exceeds the entire amount of all US credit card debt.

Originally Posted by Alaskan Rover

Wait...what? You're saying that keeping a 3.25 gpa at a virginia comm college for two years is a GUARENTEED admission to the College of William and Mary??? Without regard to forecasted student loading at william and mary? Or is it a lottery or space availability basis?? Either way, that is a pretty good deal. Will.& Mary is a well recognized school with a beautiful old campus. And they have a nationally recognized marine research intitute - the Institute of Marine Science.

Just looked up some goods on William and Mary....Thomas Jefferson studied there...and it now ranks as the 6th best public undergrad program in the US, although the school's ranking in totality is no where near #6. That's some pretty good bang for the buck for an annual tuition of just over $6000 (2007 prices) !! The only other schools with similar 'bang 4 the buck' are Berkely, Univ of Michigan, Indiana University-Bloomington (at least their school of business). I'm actually surprised that U of Virginia has #3 ranking, and that UCLA is as high as number #2. Not surprised at all by Berkeley's #1 status.

Plus, William and Mary has one of the best coffehouses(a true coffeehouse, not coffeshop) of a lot of campus' that I've been to....AROMA'S. It's very close proximity (steps away) to Colonial Williamsburg is another great plus!

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Yes, it's guaranteed (within core traditional academic courses, not things like ballroom dancing, etc. I believe). Quite the deal. You don't get a huge number of people doing it right now but it will grow. Our daughter is a Jr. there this year. That doesn't mean they can hang once they get in unfortunately, esp. at a school like W&M. It's considered (by many) to be more difficult to achieve high grades than UVA. High prof. to student/ratio and lots of essay tests not multiple choice.

Our sons computer science roommate is a sophomore transfer from the Va. community college system and is struggling mightily at Va. Tech w/our son (an engineering freshman there this year). So I can't say how successfully kids will transition to the bigger schools yet.

Originally Posted by Triage

Big spread, indeed, and that's why value matters. The high price tag at some schools has a lot to do with Americans thinking we were richer than we are. Fewer people were discussing these things when America was booming. I think a lot of today's students are actually smarter than they were in the past. Among the very best students GPAs are higher, SAT scores are higher and their IQ tests are higher. Faced with the reality of the current job market that slow kid in high school who couldn't understand square roots is becoming a thing of the past.

The same shift will became necessary at the college level, "deep engagement with complex ideas and texts, difficult and often solitary study, the discipline to write, revise, and write again. What students need most aren't additional social opportunities and elaborate services. They need professors who assign a lot of reading and writing."

Definitely true. Both our kids were in either regional governors schools or application only county magnet schools. Those kids were all mostly off the charts smart, and driven. We saw first hand, kids that 10 years ago would have gotten in a UVA no problem but were flat our denied 3 years ago. kids W/ AP rated 3.9-4.3 GPA's. The competition at the "best schools" has gotten infinitely harder and a lot more competitive starting in middle school and earlier for some. I still think tuitions are too high across the boards by at least 10% or more.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

... We are hanging it around the necks of young people trying to start out on the right foot....with NO WAY to escape the debt. ...That's a lot of money for such a small and vulnerable group of people. New grads have debt that exceeds the entire amount of all US credit card debt.

aren't you forgetting the mantra of "nobody FORCED them to sign up for this debt"??? How are they "victims" any more than underwater homeowners?

Originally Posted by Triage

However, replacing the entire system with University of Phoenix style private schools like the OP's video advocates and ending all government involvement is not the answer either.

Seriously? I didn't watch much of the video since it was so full of shit it wasn't worth watching, but is this really their answer? If so it is more full of shit then I thought.

Originally Posted by jfost

aren't you forgetting the mantra of "nobody FORCED them to sign up for this debt"??? How are they "victims" any more than underwater homeowners?

Stop thinking and just post drivel, you'll give conservatards a bad name.

I don't know how it works in Virgina, but if you graduate from a two community college in California you are guaranteed admission to a Univ. of California school. Not necessarily a particular campus, but one of the nine. The problem was when kids starting to apply they quickly ran out of slots, so a lot of them are still waiting to get into a UC. Of course budget issues are a factor as many schools have had to limit enrollment.

Another interesting phenomenon has to do with college costs. Tuition has climbed dramatically in the past few years, but so have scholarships. With certain GPAs or SAT/ACT scores nearly every univ. and private college offers significant scholarships. If the kids work at it, they can apply for others as well, which often require writing essays and other such requirements. It is good to see schools rewarding kids who put in the effort, who aren't football players or other jocks. So while the stated costs of college are absurdly high, the actual costs are only ridiculously high.

Originally Posted by Triage

Among the very best students GPAs are higher, SAT scores are higher and their IQ tests are higher. Faced with the reality of the current job market that slow kid in high school who couldn't understand square roots is becoming a thing of the past.

You are aware that there is a big difference between getting, say, 1450 on the SAT's in 1993 and 1450 in 1998. Are you aware of the SAT recentering that took place in 1995?

Even with the recentering, SAT's changed. A 1400 in 1992 is about the equivalent of 1500 in 2002.

Most of the colleges who claimed improvements of say, 100 points between 1990 and 2000 are leaving out a HUGE part of the equation. The recentering changed SAT scores a whole lot. Most of the improvement is due to recentering, and changing the test(removing antonyms, etc.) NOT a better student body.

Mensa used to take the SAT. They still do, if you took it before 1995. After 1995, they have had too much difficulty correlating the new test.

Google "SAT recentering, 1996" for a start. The tests changed a whole lot. Essentially, they wanted 500 to be the 50th percentile for the verbal, as well as the math. They basically added about 70 points to everyone's verbal.

If you got 1440 graduationg in 1993, that is the equivalent of around 1510 for someone graduating in 1996. In the next years, they changed the test, further screwing things up.

What they should do, is use percentiles, not raw scores, as percentiles translate across eras.

So a school which is claiming a 70 point improvement between 1990 and 1998, really has not improved at all.

Sorry to burst the bubble of folks with later SAT scores, but those scores need to be accurately valued in order to be compared to pre-recentering scores. In other words, if you graduated in 2000 and got 1400, you're score is not nearly as impressive as a 1400 score for someone graduating in 1990.

Originally Posted by hutash

... The problem was when kids starting to apply they quickly ran out of slots, so a lot of them are still waiting to get into a UC. Of course budget issues are a factor as many schools have had to limit enrollment....

I'm going to put on my other hat for a minute and talk about this...

how in the F can they have "budget problems" when there is a laundry list of kids waiting to pay tuition lined up outside EVERY admissions office? That would be like McD's saying they can't afford to have any more customers so we had to shut down a few registers. SOMETHING is fishy in the world of big academia...

Originally Posted by hutash

Seriously? I didn't watch much of the video since it was so full of shit it wasn't worth watching, but is this really their answer? If so it is more full of shit then I thought.



Stop thinking and just post drivel, you'll give conservatards a bad name.

I don't know how it works in Virgina, but if you graduate from a two community college in California you are guaranteed admission to a Univ. of California school. Not necessarily a particular campus, but one of the nine. The problem was when kids starting to apply they quickly ran out of slots, so a lot of them are still waiting to get into a UC. Of course budget issues are a factor as many schools have had to limit enrollment.

Another interesting phenomenon has to do with college costs. Tuition has climbed dramatically in the past few years, but so have scholarships. With certain GPAs or SAT/ACT scores nearly every univ. and private college offers significant scholarships. If the kids work at it, they can apply for others as well, which often require writing essays and other such requirements. It is good to see schools rewarding kids who put in the effort, who aren't football players or other jocks. So while the stated costs of college are absurdly high, the actual costs are only ridiculously high.

You didn't watch the video and this is a thread about the content of that video.

Knee jerk Big Brother defender. That's you.

Originally Posted by jfost

I'm going to put on my other hat for a minute and talk about this...

how in the F can they have "budget problems" when there is a laundry list of kids waiting to pay tuition lined up outside EVERY admissions office? That would be like McD's saying they can't afford to have any more customers so we had to shut down a few registers. SOMETHING is fishy is the world of big academia...

Part of the way they drive up the price is by restricting supply.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Part of the way they drive up the price is by restricting supply.

I get that, but it is weird that you have someone willing to pay $$$ and you say, well - times are tough so we laid off a bunch of associate profs and now have even less capacity. You have to uphold the standards or something I guess...

the free market would have universities charge what is costs to operate them plus 10% or so, wonder what that amount would be per kid, per year?

what if McD's relied on "alumni" donations to prosper?

Originally Posted by Triage

But it's naive to believe that learning calculus will be "rewarded in the marketplace." What is rewarded is having a certification in calculus. If a person learns on their own from a book, or from an online not-for-credit course, then I don't think you'll get any extra income from having that knowledge. When people talk about finding a good professional job without a degree they're mostly talking about a previous era before globalization and technology changed the job market.




.

I'm inclined to agree. In the actuarial profession, you have lots of professional exams to pass, on undergrad/graduate level mathematical statistics. You need to pass the exams, and a masters/PHD will not get you out of any exams, so in theory someone could teach themselves the matierial, and not get a degree. In practice, however, the degree is required by employers. Your degree will not get you any actuary exam credit, you still need to pass the exams, but you need the degree to get the job. I have never heard of someone getting a job without a degree.

Originally Posted by Long duc dong

I'm inclined to agree. In the actuarial profession...

thank god, from your last post I thought you worked for Kaplan.

Originally Posted by Long duc dong

You are aware that there is a big difference between getting, say, 1450 on the SAT's in 1993 and 1450 in 1998. Are you aware of the SAT recentering that took place in 1995?

Even with the recentering, SAT's changed. A 1400 in 1992 is about the equivalent of 1500 in 2002.

Most of the colleges who claimed improvements of say, 100 points between 1990 and 2000 are leaving out a HUGE part of the equation. The recentering changed SAT scores a whole lot. Most of the improvement is due to recentering, and changing the test(removing antonyms, etc.) NOT a better student body.

Mensa used to take the SAT. They still do, if you took it before 1995. After 1995, they have had too much difficulty correlating the new test.

Google "SAT recentering, 1996" for a start. The tests changed a whole lot. Essentially, they wanted 500 to be the 50th percentile for the verbal, as well as the math. They basically added about 70 points to everyone's verbal.

If you got 1440 graduationg in 1993, that is the equivalent of around 1510 for someone graduating in 1996. In the next years, they changed the test, further screwing things up.

What they should do, is use percentiles, not raw scores, as percentiles translate across eras.

So a school which is claiming a 70 point improvement between 1990 and 1998, really has not improved at all.

Sorry to burst the bubble of folks with later SAT scores, but those scores need to be accurately valued in order to be compared to pre-recentering scores. In other words, if you graduated in 2000 and got 1400, you're score is not nearly as impressive as a 1400 score for someone graduating in 1990.

They have added a writing portion which I think is a good thing, showing a sometimes better snap shot of an applicants academic skills.

Originally Posted by hutash

I don't know how it works in Virgina, but if you graduate from a two community college in California you are guaranteed admission to a Univ. of California school. Not necessarily a particular campus, but one of the nine. The problem was when kids starting to apply they quickly ran out of slots, so a lot of them are still waiting to get into a UC. Of course budget issues are a factor as many schools have had to limit enrollment.

Right now it's the university of your choice. Without getting into it, they do have some ways of weeding out some of your CC classes though. Since the program is relatively young they haven't seen a full round of this yet as the first batch of students won't begin graduating till next year at the earliest.

Originally Posted by OSECS

They have added a writing portion which I think is a good thing, showing a sometimes better snap shot of an applicants academic skills.

I'm betting he knows that... Just a hunch!

Originally Posted by Long duc dong

Sorry to burst the bubble of folks with later SAT scores, but those scores need to be accurately valued in order to be compared to pre-recentering scores. In other words, if you graduated in 2000 and got 1400, you're score is not nearly as impressive as a 1400 score for someone graduating in 1990.

I was referring to the very best students. A perfect score may not mean the same thing as it did in the past but there are many more top tier applicants with perfect scores than there were in the past. It wouldn't be hard to analyze the data. SAT scores are only part of the story, top students also have more extra curricular activities than in the past and have taken a heavier course load of AP level classes than in the past. Perhaps the bigger issue with re-centering is with the middle and lower tier students?

Originally Posted by Triage

...there are many more top tier applicants with perfect scores than there were in the past....

that's because they all paid that one smart kid to take the test.