The theoretical narrow protest/arg/dps 138 gangrush praxis thread

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 10:52 AM

Still waiting to hear back from Keith on topsheets. He wanted to run it by Tabke/Alto.

I would assume the blacks are kind of a high likelihood just since he's probably got them or can get them easily.

I asked him if there's any way he can get a praxis logo on there though. People are going to ask when they see them I think.

Originally Posted by Onward

Good thread. I've skied and toured on the og protests since 2009. A killer ski for all the funky snow we get while touring here in scandinavia. When you have a run that includes steep pow via windblown chalk and breakable crust and ends up in wet soggy deep snow in the trees, there is no better shape to be on.

However the weight and ankle torquing forces can be tough on the way up. A skinnier, lighter protest sounds like a winner to me. 187 is more than long enough for touring (at least for me at 180cm)

What are your thoughts on the footprint of your protests when skinning? I've owned a few really rockered skis at this point that I've skinned on and they do lose grip more than a full contact/traditional camber ski for sure.

**marshalolson** · 12-12-2011, 10:58 AM

just looked at the protest spec's: IMO if you want it to ski the way i think you want it to ski, you might look for something with a shorter running length than 100cm, and a much longer taper than 40cm in the shovel.

a dps wailer 112 has 37cm of shovel taper, a lotus 138 has 75cm of shovel taper.

just my .02.

**Onward** · 12-12-2011, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

What are your thoughts on the footprint of your protests when skinning? I've owned a few really rockered skis at this point that I've skinned on and they do lose grip more than a full contact/traditional camber ski for sure.

Mine are one of the first protos with continuous rocker and even without a flat part under foot I've never found them to lack grip. Snow in the bc is rarely 2 dimensional... The few times I've skinned up groomers with protests to get to the pow I've had no probs (except for ankle twist).

Skins are 130mm mohair mix from marker which are not the grippiest either.

**foreal** · 12-12-2011, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Well considering there are like 4 skis that even have a shape like this, you still have no idea how much is due to just surface area and how much is due to shape. Because all of them are about the same width too. It's not a 'there's something better than your lotus in the bc', it's 'I bet there's something almost as good as your lotus that's way eaiser to hike on and edge over on ice'. You and I both know that even on many of those days when your lotus is by far the best ski in your quiver, even your buddies on skinnier skis aren't sinking much more than you. But you can out-turn all of them with way less effort because of the shape of your lotus. I know what the snow does up there.

I'm kind of done explaining the reasoning behind this to be honest. If you want to try it, cool. If not, no biggie. But just speaking for me personally, I'm about two years past being talked out of it. It really is an old topic with me and I've given it plenty of thought. But I can tell you for a fact that you don't need ginormous surface area to ski on settled pow. Especially high moisture settled pow. It's on the magnitude of millimeters from skis that already exist and work fine, and shaped even better. It's really not that big of a mental leap.

Again, not trying to hate on your brainchild just to offer my knee-jerk reaction after starting to read this thread. I'm all for progression in new shapes etc. After all thats what got us to this point.

I agree that 138 underfoot is not necessary to float/have fun in high moisture content snow. I mean shit, I still have fun on my Trabs and LP's in the BC. But, I personally would rather be on top of the heavy stuff and "in" the lighter stuff. When its 32 deg at the trailhead I know what ski will be more enjoyable. I think it would be rad to see if this same feeling could be accomplished in a smaller package underfoot - it would be lighter for both ski and skin material, less angulation necessary while skiing resulting in more of a one quiver ski.

On a semi related topic - after having the chance to ride some 112's w that massive tip rocker, I was amazed at how quickly they got to the surface in pow...yes, dense maritime pow. This makes sense as with all of the tip rocker it just begs to get to the surface especially when put on edge. Thus you are correct - this rocker/taper/width equation is not just all about girth underfoot.

Interested to see where this thread goes and the end product of your ninja BC rig.

**tuco** · 12-12-2011, 11:29 AM

^^As a dude that has 4 pairs of black topsheeted skis,I would agree those look cool. But black topsheets suck for touring, and a lot of sunny days in general.

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

just looked at the protest spec's: IMO if you want it to ski the way i think you want it to ski, you might look for something with a shorter running length than 100cm, and a much longer taper than 40cm in the shovel.

a dps wailer 112 has 37cm of shovel taper, a lotus 138 has 75cm of shovel taper.

just my .02.

For sure. I want to skin on it though. Far. And worn out. I want some decent skin contact. I mean as it sits, it's still only 4 inches where it's not rockered. That's not much.

Even the old protests I have are the same running length/rocker amount. I still haven't met anyone who's gone from a full reverse/reverse (including me) to the protest who really thought it was much of a compromise. A lot of my friends did the same thing going from the praxis pows to the protest. I remember holding a praxis pow ski up to it, and the difference is tiny. The full true rocker is so mellow underfoot, it's almost flat. And this shape will be pretty much flat too. I mean just saying it outloud "I want a ski that skis as much like the protest as possible" would seem to discourage big deviations. I'm totally cool with the big one that's alreay made. The only question I see is do we need MORE extended rocker/less running surface because it's skinnier. I'm betting on 'no'.

As far as the taper goes: Here are my thoughts. Based on a bunch of different rockered skis I've been on there are two approaches. Don't rock it up until you hit the wide points, and just rocker up a rather traditional shape and you'll get all the benefits. I don't really like the second one that much because it engages more of the ski's edge as you lean it over. The mountain jibs I used to hike on were like this and all the detuning in the world didn't keep them from hooking in dense snow situations (cream cheese stuff, warming rotten pow). Detuned and on genuinely harder snow, it's kind of rad because the harder you lean, the more edge you have but it's a detriment in more, even slightly 3D snow.

Where that rocker starts (and where it's most useful in my mind) is starting at the wide point/taper or as close to it as possible so you don't get too much ski that's wider than what's being skied on sitting off the snow waiting to be grabbed when leaned over more.
The taper is dictated by where that sidecut is going to be laid out. The taper point by definition is going to be from the widest point/the outside end of the sidecut. To get a longer taper, you'd need to move that sidecut point even closer to the foot. With the same dimensions you then get a tighter radius and a more drastic change in a shorter space from narrowest to widest. So to extend the taper, and keep the same general radius, you'd have to narrow up the wide point some more......thereby reducing surface area in the tip. You could also widen the waist instead to maintain that bigger arc, but then questions of waist width to tip width ratios start to get a little bothersome. The old protest does this without problem. What I'm thinking with this ski is since it IS skinnier and there's obviously less surface area, getting that waist a little smaller proportion-wise is going to help keep the tails down/tips up when you do hit that bottomless stuff.

So yeah.......that's my mental 'balance of dimensions' process right now.

I mean really though, this IS similar to a wailer, just a wider waist.

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by foreal

On a semi related topic - after having the chance to ride some 112's w that massive tip rocker, I was amazed at how quickly they got to the surface in pow...yes, dense maritime pow. This makes sense as with all of the tip rocker it just begs to get to the surface especially when put on edge. Thus you are correct - this rocker/taper/width equation is not just all about girth underfoot.

It seems like it would be fun game to play with your friends with those wailers and that bannana tip. Keep jumping off stuff and the first person to actually manage to land far enough foreward to go over the bars wins the beer.

Seems like it would be pretty tough.

**marshalolson** · 12-12-2011, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

Keep jumping off stuff and the first person to actually manage to land far enough foreward to go over the bars wins the beer.

you might want to try skiing in snow that is less than 20% water content

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

you might want to try skiing in snow that is less than 20% water content

Just like with bikes, it's all about finding the right landing angles

Not gonna lie, when I first started skiing from snowboarding, 'whiplash' was a common theme for me.

**sqikunst** · 12-12-2011, 12:09 PM

^^ I'm really, really hoping for those sexy pure-black topsheets.

= Fail. Have fun schlepping 3 pounds of snow with you.

Light matte top sheets = Win

**TheDon** · 12-12-2011, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by sqikunst

Light matte top sheets = Win

I really like matte top sheets too for sure. Less wear, less chipping. I don't really care about the color but usually like something a little darker. I don't like white top sheets.

**afraid** · 12-12-2011, 01:01 PM

if they end up black i will spraypaint them white. lets see "praxis" on there! and the BC lightweight topsheet...

**shirk** · 12-12-2011, 01:11 PM

I was looking for pictures of the Protest rocker profile and found this last night.

I assume this is the original Protest.

**butterscotch** · 12-12-2011, 01:23 PM

wow. rad that is happening. big props to kidwoo for pushing this through.

One of the reasons I initially voted for the -10 width is my experience on the CRJ. While 118 underfoot is pretty fat, 129 tip width is not.

Also of note, on the CRJ, the rocker and the taper start in (pretty much) the same location along the length of the ski. I think the additional rocker length / splay / whatever on the "kidwoo special" will be an improvement over the CRJ (which is quite good already) in weird snow.

**TheDon** · 12-12-2011, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by shirk

I was looking for pictures of the Protest rocker profile and found this last night.

I assume this is the original Protest.

That is a good find. Note the taper points if we can bring the taper point back closer to boot I think we'll have an improved spat (spat with a flat spot).

**auvgeek** · 12-12-2011, 01:29 PM

Looks like I'm overruled - and for good reason. I've never owned a pair of matte black skis, so I kinda forgot about skinning issues related to carrying tons of snow on them. I'll shut up now.

**sqikunst** · 12-12-2011, 01:43 PM

^^ Yep....

**Winkler** · 12-12-2011, 03:00 PM

I'm very interested in this ski, thinking it would make a perfect compliment to my fat bros. I like the sound of the -15 measurements in a 187.

I have often thought "it's the shape not the width" as well. I have also found it odd that this shape of ski is designed from the ground up for off piste snow but only offered in sizes that limit a person to mechanized travel, short days or abused hip flexors. wouldn't it make sense to offer a ski designed for funky off piste snow to the walking crowd? I could care less about groomer performance and most of the folks I ski with think the same. Should probably just email Keith right now since the market for this ski is probably rather small even though in reality it's quite large

**bodywhomper** · 12-12-2011, 03:19 PM

this is a cool and interesting thread. in "soft" snow, i typically tour w/ l138's and have been very happy with them. I am curious to see and hear about the skis created as a result of this thread.

weight was a primary concern for me when deciding between a protest (i had skied the first gen version a few times in the resort) and the l138. i bought the l138's because of weight (the cost between the two skis was the same at the time).

Originally Posted by Onward

Mine are one of the first protos with continuous rocker and even without a flat part under foot I've never found them to lack grip. Snow in the bc is rarely 2 dimensional... The few times I've skinned up groomers with protests to get to the pow I've had no probs (except for ankle twist).

Skins are 130mm mohair mix from marker which are not the grippiest either.

i've skinned bulletproof with my l138's on slopes up to 35 degrees w/o skin grip problems.

**Island Bay** · 12-12-2011, 03:20 PM

Very interesting read, and well done getting this ski made.
Quick thread-jack, now that so many Protestphiles are here: If any of you are familiar with the hugely variable, and not often perfect, New Zealand snow, do you reckon I'm being a complete idiot lusting after a pair of Protests? 90% of my skiing is done at NZ club fields, in wind buff, corn, powder, gunk, etc etc.
Currently on 190 Praxis BCs and 187 Kingswood Rocketypes (134-112-122), but want badly to try the Protests.
Thanks guys, and good luck on the skinnys.

**peeforward** · 12-12-2011, 03:36 PM

I think they are going to skin well especially at 113mm underfoot. The rocker has never been a big issue for me. i've probably got around 200 days in all snow conditions btw pow boards and 138's, all skinning for all vert and rarely have any traction issues except icy sidehills (which should be a lot better on the skinnier board). i've also spent most of my time over the past 2 seasons touring on newer gen lotus 120's with 60cm's (right?) of tip rocker and doubt that they have much less edge contact than these will. again, they skin great (and in my opinion are currently the best all condition touring ski for big terrain)

as mentioned by me and several others: please go for a light colored topsheet. if it says praxis on it, all the better, but i really only care that it's light colored and doesn't add unnecessary weight. how about the wooly mammoth/white pow board one from last year or this years pow board? light color and weight is way more important than any graphic though.

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by shirk

I was looking for pictures of the Protest rocker profile and found this last night.

I assume this is the original Protest.

I don't know if that's a finalized protest. The tail part looks a lot wider than the underfoot (might must be the way the topsheets/sidewalls contour in the pic). The skis with that topsheet literally had the tail at 1mm wider than the boot. That looks closer to the NEW design......which is what we're copying. Just an old topsheet. Was that pic from someone in tahoe? Lots of odd topsheet and cut combos floating around here........hard to say. The tip from what I can see of it looks all protest though.

Those contact points look about right. That's at rest though. There is just a smidgen of camber in there so those move back a bit when pressed.

Either way, it sounds like enough of you guys have emailed Keith that he's thinking of just putting up a 'buy' feature on the website. Thanks a bunch for all the interest........really appreciate it. I think you guys will be stoked on these.

**shirk** · 12-12-2011, 05:40 PM

Pic is from a Gapicski thread.

http://www.epicski.com/t/85081/r-r-f...differ-and-how

**kidwoo** · 12-12-2011, 07:17 PM

Just talked to Keith at the shop again.

He's gotten enough emails at this point to start moving. He's fired up.

Here's what he settled on for ordering. He's still got some stuff to wrap up before fully getting on these and he doesn't want to take any money until he's ready to build. So starting January first, he wants to put up a ONE WEEK LONG order page for these things. No coupons, no deals beyond what a good bargain this already is........and you get to choose your topsheet from any of the current Praxis graphics. Pretty cool. And the 'light vs. dark' topsheet debate ends there

We hashed out a few really minor tweaks to the camber profile, he's willing to do a notch in the tail for skins just like what's on the current backcountry skis. I hadn't seen this before today and looks sick. It's a true full wrap around edge that also reinforces this notch.

So if you want some of these, get your funds in order, you've got three weeks, and then you'll be able to order them direct from the site.