Thread: Resort skiing on dynafits

I will probably get slammed but my 2 cents...
My g3 bindings and Maestreles are ok on hardpack resort stuff... actually truth be told they suck! Way too much energy transmitted to my ankles, knees ,legs to be skiing these at a ski hill. Not much good easy slack country where I ski so its alpine at the hill and AT when touring. I don't get skiing that touring stuff on a scraped out resort...(unless its your only ski)
I compare it to me doing backcountry laps on my alpine stuff , sidestepping up and then being the best skier on the way down. Another good comparison for cyclists is only onwning a cross bike...( ya man this bike rips on all terrain and I can climb like crazy...) Cross bike can go down sketchy single tack but its SKETCHY
Just my humble opinin. I don't really care what people ski just don't tell me your fat ski touring set up works just as well as my alpine stuff

Originally Posted by creaky fossil

Yeah anything firm -- real ice, western "ice," coral reef -- and my right knee just throws fits and threatens to go on strike. My arches get tired lots faster too. Very direct vibration transfer -- what makes them ski like alpine bindings, the rigidity of things, well that also means there's more shock/vibration transmitted to the skier. Metal-to-metal, like srsosbso said.
.

Would not want them as my only setup since I walk 5-10% of my ski days and ride chairs the remainder. Full alpine setup = much happier when riding chairs.

Also be thankful those Wateas and that carbon layup are pretty nice at dampening rough ice. My AT ski is the Watea 94 and it's the dampest friendliest thing I've skied on nasty reef and chicken head concrete.

FWIW, I find that dynafits and fatish skis are easier on my knees due to the reduced weight than Alpine bindings and fatish skis in most conditions. But then I'm an old fart who likes making lot's of wiggly turns and have a pair of race skis for hard conditions.

Learned back in the olden not so golden Tele days that skiing the resort beats the crap out of light touring gear.
I ski harder, get more air, in more cut/bumpy snow at the resort.
Why subject your touring rig to that kinda punishment?

I've skied Dynafits backcountry 200+ days in the last four years.
Not a single failure (anti jinx).
I do not ski them at the resort.

Okay, so I rode my new Dynafits in the resort both day skiing and some night skiing today.

Radical FT, 8.5 DIN, stiffener plate thingy NOT engaged, on 2012 Rossi 189 S7's with Tecnica Bushwacker 320mm boot, 5.5mm heel-pin spacing. (180lbs, 5'11", Type II skier)
Home mounted myself on BF inserts, all measurements and heel spacing checked with digital caliper, so I know a shop didn't fuck it up.

Conditions were the worst possible you could imagine. Almost %100 man made snow inbounds. Winter is fucked up this year.
During the warm part of the day it's heavy slushy corn.
During the night that corn sets up and freezes, ruts frozen into the base, etc... We've all skied this melt-freeze, "why am I even here" shit so imagine that.

I started off with some slow speed carving and skidded turns, progressed to high speed carving and skidded turns, then hit the moguls.
It was not pretty skiing the ice-moguls on my S7's but it worked without a release even though my balance was all over the place.

Then I tried doing the old school technique of feet glued together, twist and skid every turn, and other things trying to make them release by skiing with bad form.
(Backseat, extreme snowplowing, abrupt hockey stops etc...)

When I was sure that the bindings were safe, I took a patrol toboggan down with a person in it, side slipping and pivot slipping all the way -- no issues, no twisting or rolling out of the binding.

After stomping around doing patrol work out of the bindings I noticed a few things that may account for the reports of premature release (other than a shop mistake):

The toe holes can easily get clogged with ice, especially in granular / wet corn conditions if you spend some time walking around in them.
The same goes with area under the toe springs, you ski in crap, then take the skis off and let them sit outside while you're doing stuff and it freezes and sets up under there.
Snow and ice can build up and stick in the space between the heel and the binding and in the recesses in the heel.

How to fix:

So I got in the habit of clicking the toe up and down a few times on each ski to clear that stuff out before stepping into it.
Once in, I gave it a few back and forth touring motions to rotate the front pins in the boot toe sockets and clear out the ice there and 'set' the pins.
Just as you would do with normal alpine bindings, clearing sticky snow off critical parts of the bindings before stepping into them does wonders.

So far so good, but I still don't know what it's going to take to make these bindings release and I really don't want to start taking beaters on purpose.

I may lower the DIN until some pre-releases start happening, then increase it a bit to find some happy medium.

Originally Posted by jetski

I will probably get slammed but my 2 cents...
My g3 bindings and Maestreles are ok on hardpack resort stuff... actually truth be told they suck! Way too much energy transmitted to my ankles, knees ,legs to be skiing these at a ski hill. Not much good easy slack country where I ski so its alpine at the hill and AT when touring. I don't get skiing that touring stuff on a scraped out resort...(unless its your only ski)
I compare it to me doing backcountry laps on my alpine stuff , sidestepping up and then being the best skier on the way down. Another good comparison for cyclists is only onwning a cross bike...( ya man this bike rips on all terrain and I can climb like crazy...) Cross bike can go down sketchy single tack but its SKETCHY
Just my humble opinin. I don't really care what people ski just don't tell me your fat ski touring set up works just as well as my alpine stuff

Wait, you're complaining that your foot has a more direct solid connection to the ski? Have you been skiing in over-sized boots all your life?

I'm pretty sure most of us would prefer to nail our bare feet to the skis and skip the whole boot-binding interface garbage, if it were practical.

Originally Posted by Ivan Oder

I'm pretty sure most of us would prefer to nail our bare feet to the skis and skip the whole boot-binding interface garbage, if it were practical.

Nahhh, not really.

Originally Posted by Ivan Oder

After stomping around doing patrol work out of the bindings I noticed a few things that may account for the reports of premature release (other than a shop mistake):

The toe holes can easily get clogged with ice, especially in granular / wet corn conditions if you spend some time walking around in them.
The same goes with area under the toe springs, you ski in crap, then take the skis off and let them sit outside while you're doing stuff and it freezes and sets up under there.
Snow and ice can build up and stick in the space between the heel and the binding and in the recesses in the heel.

How to fix:

So I got in the habit of clicking the toe up and down a few times on each ski to clear that stuff out before stepping into it.
Once in, I gave it a few back and forth touring motions to rotate the front pins in the boot toe sockets and clear out the ice there and 'set' the pins.
Just as you would do with normal alpine bindings, clearing sticky snow off critical parts of the bindings before stepping into them does wonders.

One suggestion Ivan: Pull the toe lever all the way up into tour mode before you give "it a few back and forth touring motions to rotate the front pins in the boot toe sockets and clear out the ice there and 'set' the pins." If you can't pull the toe peice lever up fully into tour mode, you know you probably have some ice (or mud/rocks) either in toe sockets or under the binding toe peice. A few back and forth motions might clear out the obstruction, and you might be able to pull the toe lever into full tour mode, and then you will be good to go (just make sure to lower the toe lever into ski mode before beginning your run). If you can't raise the toe lever all the way into tour mode, take off the ski and clear out the ice/snow/mud/rocks from all the critical parts of the boot and binding before starting the step in process again.

Yep,always flip the skis a few times to let the toe pins clear any ice.I also noticed direct feedback of whats going on with the skis on icey conditions.Rough on my knees/ankles but that only happens a few times a year until things warm up/West coast skiing.If I was skiing East coast only where shit is frozen the whole day I would use a different binding for comfort issues/old knees

Originally Posted by harpo-the-skier

One suggestion Ivan: Pull the toe lever all the way up into tour mode before you give "it a few back and forth touring motions to rotate the front pins in the boot toe sockets and clear out the ice there and 'set' the pins." If you can't pull the toe peice lever up fully into tour mode, you know you probably have some ice (or mud/rocks) either in toe sockets or under the binding toe peice. A few back and forth motions might clear out the obstruction, and you might be able to pull the toe lever into full tour mode, and then you will be good to go (just make sure to lower the toe lever into ski mode before beginning your run). If you can't raise the toe lever all the way into tour mode, take off the ski and clear out the ice/snow/mud/rocks from all the critical parts of the boot and binding before starting the step in process again.

Good point! I will do this. I did notice that without the toes locked and the heel free, if you swing it even slightly the wrong way, it comes off easily.

Last week, I skied 4 days (Sat, Sun, Tue, Wed) at Bridger Bowl on my backcountry set up; Movement Sluffs, Dynafit FT12 (set at 9), Maestrales 25.0 (288mm). For the record, I'm small, 5'6", 140lbs.

My set up seemed to have two personalities.

I didn't have any problems with releasing when I was actually skiing down the fall line. I jump turned my way down some of the gullies into Slushman's Ravine without any trouble. I did at least 10 runs off the ridge without losing a ski.

But, on Saturday, my day ended early when I was traversing over Bridger Gully towards Apron. I was going about 5 mph, hit a buried rock and my ski popped off. I tipped over and smacked my face on a different buried rock. I've never been so surprised by a binding release. I didn't think there was enough energy in the system to pop out of a heal.

Over the rest of the week, I had a couple similar releases. I'd be relaxing, getting from point A to point B, hit something hidden under the snow and end up on my face, which sucked because I already had stitches in my lip.

I think I've never noticed that before because I've never skied somewhere with a base as thin as Bridger had. It was pretty much impossible to ski anything ungroomed without hitting rocks and trees.

In the end, I survived, my skis survived (no core shots) and I'm sure I'll use my Dynafits at a resort again. I learned to be careful when I normally relax. And, even with the bad conditions, I loved Bridger Bowl.

Originally Posted by stradissimo

Over the rest of the week, I had a couple similar releases. I'd be relaxing, getting from point A to point B, hit something hidden under the snow and end up on my face, which sucked because I already had stitches in my lip.

Somethings wrong. check the boot alignment and especially the toe connection with the boot. You might have excessive vibram rubber in the toe that prevents the toe jaw closing properly.
I had the same issue with my quadrants, had to shave quite a bit off from both sides.

Originally Posted by Meathelmet

Somethings wrong. check the boot alignment and especially the toe connection with the boot. You might have excessive vibram rubber in the toe that prevents the toe jaw closing properly.
I had the same issue with my quadrants, had to shave quite a bit off from both sides.

Thanks, I'll check 'em. I haven't been suspecting the toes because most of the time my toes were still in the bindings when my face hit the snow (or the tip of my skis). The quick pivot about the toes made the transition from horizontal gliding to vertical crashing seem extra abrupt.

I did suspect I didn't have the heel pins engaging deep enough in the boots. But I double checked them and changed from measuring the heel set-back with the ski de-cambered to cambered and only moderately improved the retention.

Or perhaps dial up the vertical release a bit? I've had a couple of heel releases. Once hitting a tree head on with the ski tip (good) and once falling over the handle bars going slow on breakable crust (also good). Mine (Comforts set a 6) get a fair amount of groomer use.

Originally Posted by stradissimo

Thanks, I'll check 'em. I haven't been suspecting the toes because most of the time my toes were still in the bindings when my face hit the snow (or the tip of my skis). The quick pivot about the toes made the transition from horizontal gliding to vertical crashing seem extra abrupt.

How do you know? Shit goes down fast when...eh..eating shit!! Still attached in the toe after the crash?

And while you are at it : Have you checked the rear inserts?.

There has been problems with the heel inserts, the slots not being deep enough,so when ski bends,there is no more space for the pins to go. I had similar issue
way back when I had megarides. kept on releasing and didnt understand why... found out that there was excessive plastic in heel inserts, some mold flaws.
dremeled slots & problem went away.

Originally Posted by Ivan Oder

...The toe holes can easily get clogged with ice, especially in granular / wet corn conditions if you spend some time walking around in them...

...So I got in the habit of clicking the toe up and down a few times on each ski to clear that stuff out before stepping into it.
Once in, I gave it a few back and forth touring motions to rotate the front pins in the boot toe sockets and clear out the ice there and 'set' the pins.

Or you could carry a golf tee or something similar. Right before stepping in, clean the toe holes out.

Originally Posted by pisteoff

Or you could carry a golf tee or something similar. Right before stepping in, clean the toe holes out.

I noticed that the pins on the Radical have a grove in them that is sharp. Supposedly that is what this is for, to remove ice while touring.

FWIW, here's the heel on the Tecnica Bushwacker / Cochise / Cochise Pro:

Originally Posted by Meathelmet

How do you know? Shit goes down fast when...eh..eating shit!! Still attached in the toe after the crash?

Yup, still attached. I wish someone got a video, it would be pretty funny. Luckily for me, all the unwanted releases were at low speeds.

Now I'm going to admit something that is a little painful. I just checked out my skis/binding carefully and found that while I have the lateral release set at 9, the vertical release is only at 7.5. Apparently, I checked everything but the most obvious thing when I was up in Bozeman. I completely forgot I reduced the vertical setting back in December when I had a bruised heel.

On the positive side, I did lots of moderately hard skiing without any problems. In fact, I really tried to see if I could jump turn out of the Dynafits and couldn't do it.

Originally Posted by Ivan Oder

Wait, you're complaining that your foot has a more direct solid connection to the ski? Have you been skiing in over-sized boots all your life?

I'm pretty sure most of us would prefer to nail our bare feet to the skis and skip the whole boot-binding interface garbage, if it were practical.

Me thinks you and I have different expectations from our gear and I bet we ski very very differently. Sorry but I don't agree my g3 bindings have "a more direct solid connection..."
Boot binding interface garbage? Pretty important connection going on there. If more than one person (you) thought we need a "closer" connection bindings would have developed differently.
I love my touring bindings in powder and walking. I couldn't ski touring gear exclusively at the ski hill is all I'm saying. I just tire of listening to folks who insist no performance is lost using tech bindings at the hill. Unless I'm using a lift to escort me into the wild dangerous world of the Slackcountry I will keep using my Salomon 747 and my equipe rear entrys 2 sizes too big.
Maybe if my little mountain had deeper snow I wouldn't mind as much... Man we need some snow

Oh and I'm better than you!

Originally Posted by jetski

Me thinks you and I have different expectations from our gear and I bet we ski very very differently. Sorry but I don't agree my g3 bindings have "a more direct solid connection..."
Boot binding interface garbage? Pretty important connection going on there. If more than one person (you) thought we need a "closer" connection bindings would have developed differently.
I love my touring bindings in powder and walking. I couldn't ski touring gear exclusively at the ski hill is all I'm saying. I just tire of listening to folks who insist no performance is lost using tech bindings at the hill. Unless I'm using a lift to escort me into the wild dangerous world of the Slackcountry I will keep using my Salomon 747 and my equipe rear entrys 2 sizes too big.
Maybe if my little mountain had deeper snow I wouldn't mind as much... Man we need some snow

Oh and I'm better than you!

You said "Way too much energy transmitted to my ankles, knees ,legs to be skiing these at a ski hill."

I interpret that as having a solid, slop free connection to your ski, i.e. more direct edge control, pressure etc...

Now if you meant that was 'too much energy' before release in a fall, well that's something different and not desirable, and yes touring bindings aren't as elastic in that way as regular bindings.

So you do have to be mindful of the conditions in which they will and will not release and ski accordingly. Mostly that means no park skiing, landing on hard flats, or aggressive mogul skiing in touring bindings.

(Those things are for dumb kids anyways, we have powder to get to.)

Ivan, i called you out saying I was better than you... I was expecting an internet fight.
Almost every year some backcountry skier or Patroller around here tears an acl or damages there body somehow always when it hasn't snowed in weeks.
I was very skeptical about tech bindings so I had to go ski them like an idiot... park, moguls and high speed groomers. Glad to say they held me in but I won't be skiing them at the hill again anytime soon.

I really like my Dynafit Radical ST. They have been able to put up with my abuse on the resort and off, not to mention I learned how to ski on them this season too! I did have one of my binding breaks fail on me but they were quickly exchanged at my local ski shop. Other then that they have been amazing to ski. Went from magic carpet all the way to most black diamond runs at my local resort in one season, it does help that I am 21 and skiing 2-3 times a week.

6'3" 185lbs. I'm skiing hard at the resort with Radical Ft's mounted on Dps Wailer 112's and Titan Ultralights. I did have a couple of pre releases early season, but double checked the heel spacing, which was too loose and went up another Din and have had no problems skiing the resort hard since. I have total confidence in these. It is so much nicer to do slack country tours and not lug a Duke around and it is great to be able to use one rig for backcountry and the resort without having to worry about plates and inserts. I had one of the tails of my skis clipped by a passing skier at the resort while I was standing. I was spun around with all my weight twisting on one foot. The binding released exactly when it should have, just before my knee would have, yet I have hammer down mogul runs and taken air off pillows and skied them on ice and groomers and they are not letting go when they shouldn't.