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  1. #51
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    I've never heard of a warped boot, but it's plausible. I have seen a few older (i.e., pre-2005) tech fitted boots with misaligned fittings from the factory. Or were they warped?
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    how does that come about ... from people just zapping the binding to the ski after using a jig , not checking to see if the boot heel is centered in the rear set of pins in the heel piece ?
    Yes. I've seen two bad Dynafit mounts where the toe sometimes prereleased, always to one side. Both mounts were awful, i.e., heel was 5mm+ off-center.
    Last edited by Big Steve; 11-08-2011 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #52
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    jackass. Sounds like you'd fit right into a place that'll give you due respect and the answer you want. After all you are a Knight of the Garter, never swear, a former pro, ski with guides, and can tear bindings out of skis with one-legged squats.

  3. #53
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    Steve, greg, tone. My wife's old boots were off-centre. The right boot was perfectly aligned. The left boot was about 1mm off-centre. I mounted with measurements. But the alignment was off by the 1mm because the left boot wasn't aligned. Turned out that 1mm didn't mess up release but it was still a good headsup.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by tone capone View Post
    I Warped boots.

    He was mounting a brand new pair of Radical FTs and a brand new pair of Titans. He demonstrated the integrity of the mount and then how each boot was lined up differently with the heel pins. I bet that guy wasn't too happy with the explanation, but it sure looked like the case to me. Shop tech said it's not the first time he's seen it. I definetly saw it with my own eyes but never considered this possibility before.
    I don't own dynafits (yet) but on my freerides I quizzed Brian Hall who did many mounts as a shop owner, he said mount the heel deadcenter in the ski and the toe by one screw, after you see how the heel drops into the rear latch mark & drill the rest...the heel will drop in deadcenter

  5. #55
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    Knut - sorry I missed the post and you had good points.



    Quote Originally Posted by Knut View Post
    Strong post.

    However, there are a few things I disagree on.

    People that say this:

    will never get this
    -- Not sure what you meant about this??


    What's the point of a releasing binding system if you have to deactivate release capability on default? And I can't believe, that I'm somewhat defending the Onyx here.
    I don't deactivate release capability on default. I lock out the toes only on you fall you die terrain; and ski with toes unlocked in powder and on groomers for both Dynafits and Onyx. But then I'm speaking for myself and am light, do not pre-release Dynafits or Onyx. Like many others if I'm skiing touring bindings on groomers I will tend to adjust skiing aggressiveness accordingly to compensate for the fact that it is a touring binding.

    Really? And go bootpacking when the conditions are bad? The most hard, clattery conditions I normally find while touring, especially late season. I always start to do serious touring, when there are few pow options. Don't forget: it's Europe conditions the TO was talking about.
    Point taken

    Isn't that exactly what the Radical is? A mere update of an existing binding? Where we discuss here, whether the minor changes really make a difference at all?
    I tend to agree with you on first glance. But I don't know for sure. Personally i would tend to defer to Dynafit that it is a good binding because of Dynafit's stellar reputation and because they have so much experience but then admit that I am also a Dynafit fanboy so try to temper my enthusiasm with some caution

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Turned out that 1mm didn't mess up release but it was still a good headsup.
    Yeah, I'm guessing that <2mm (if you can step into ski mode smoothly without trimming any rubber from the heel slots) probably doesn't affect release, and certainly won't interfere with skinning, but I told my friend to ski with the skis on the indicated side if possible - no need to pre-load the toes if you can help it. They lined up perfectly when you had them on the correct side.

  7. #57
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    Lee, you mentioned something very interesting. Although you do not prerelease, you still lock in a dangerous situation. Does this mean you don't fully trust the (toe) binding ? The other element of the Dynafits (or any binding for that matter) which is puzzling to me is this DIN12 stuff. I don't understand how Dynafit gets away with DIN12 (I assume for the complete binding) whereas under certain (not DIN ?) conditions the binding will release at DIN6. Today, I spoke to a compliance manager at Oberalp, the parent company of Dynafit and he could not explain how they obtained the DIN12 rating for the Vertical FT12. He promised he will get back to me.
    As for skiing with guides in Europe: has many advantages, among others it lowers the cost of life insurance...
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  8. #58
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    By dangerous situation I mean steep slopes with exposure. I could hit rocks. I could cross a tip. I could get hit by sluff. I could encounter variable snow. If these things happen then my preference is for my skis to stay on no matter what.

    These are things that don't typically occur or are less likely to occur on "normal" touring days where I'm touring for pow.

  9. #59
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    I don't believe any tech bindings, Dynafit included, are currently DIN or TUV certified; the "12" is an approximate "release value" but as anyone who's used the bindings for long knows, the real-world retention isn't the same as alpine bindings set at the same number. It's entirely possible that the peak force required to generate a release is the same, but the binding's ability to snap back in time to prevent a pre-release is limited.

  10. #60
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    gregL, There is no uncertified DIN, at least not in Europe. Maybe Dynafit got the heel unit DIN certified, but not the toe.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  11. #61
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    That's what I'm saying, I don't believe they are certified. I vaguely remember a TUV stamp on the underside of my old TLT low-techs, but nothing on newer models.

  12. #62
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    Lee, I agree. In the same conditions I prefer to lock as well. Then again, it could get complicated if you find yourself in higher risk avy terrain where unlocking would be wiser....

    P.S. you're right, laying sloppy planks with tech bindings on their sides on groomers is not very intelligent.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  13. #63
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    Just because a manufacture uses the term "DIN" to denote a release value does not mean that the binding is actually TUV certified to the DIN ISO standard. Furthermore the DIN ISO release standard only goes up to 10, any binding with a release value over 10 is not being certified to any actual standard.

    There is no DIN ISO standard for tech bindings or tech fittings. There has been mumblings about one in the works.

  14. #64
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    They lined up perfectly when you had them on the correct side.
    Yeah, that's what the tech did in this case, a left and right designated ski and things lined up. I guess it could very well be that it was a tech fitting out of alignment as well. I guess that seems to validate Lou Dawson's opinion that the inconsistencies with boots are usually the cause of problems in the tech binding system.

    Jackass, enough already, stop harrassing Lou Dawson as well. Just get the Onyx or the Plums. I read here somewhere Marshal Olson saying that he has had far better luck with the Plums retaining his considerable mass, not to mention in his experience durablility was better than FT 12. Main reason I got the Radicals is wider support plate underneath and "power towers" which at this point there is just not enough field testing to know how well they work. I will deal accordingly with these issues if they present themselves, but considering you haven't made a purchase yet, just get the Plums and if not, the Onyx and be done with it. There is no doubt that both products seem to have firmer toe retention spings. Good luck, I hope you can solve your problem, no one likes to prerelease.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  15. #65
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    sorry, but posting three questions is not harassing. one question was about fitting a radical ft toe to a vertica ftl heel. one of the few people who could know the answer, is lou dawson. the plums are indeed a fine choice but lack brakes, they wil come out with brakes for the 2012/2013 season. the onyxes are probably the best bet. and about this 'prerelease' subject, if it was a non-issue there weren't thousands of posts on this over the last years. and interesting enough, the manufacturers of tech bindings are reacting (power towers for instance) to the internet discussion about the 'new' use of tech bindings.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  16. #66
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    I doubt Lou minds - he gets asked questions all the time. I think the tech binding manufacturers are in a tough spot and perhaps they've put themselves there. They're marketing the stuff for freeride and big mountain - whatever the hell that means. Yet at the heart its a touring binding which by necessity demands compromises. Which means consumers get mixed messages.

    I only had three weeks on the newer Onyx's and was skiing powder on them so it wasn't exactly demanding terrain. I didn't pre-release out of them and their brakes worked great. But like I said, I don't pre-release out of Dynafits so honestly can't consider this to be anything but a datapoint for a light skier who isn't super - aggressive.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Knut - sorry I missed the post ...
    Thanks for getting back to it. I thought you recommended locking the toes out per default. Regardless of the situation.
    On which I strongly disagree. The only reason then to use binders at all, would be, that getting drinks at the bar becomes difficult with 2 meter skis on.

    But the way you put it now, is exactly, like I do. I lock both onyx and dynafit out in steep terrain, where I really prefer to keep my skis on. But for that kind of skiing I also crank up my DIN bindings. So that's fine for me.
    For normal skiing and touring I prefer to have a release option on my bindings. Without the risk of getting thrown off too easily.
    And in my hands the onyx does the job here, while the dynafit doesn't under all circumstances. Of course it's an n=1 and no statistics.
    But if that's what I get and for that have to pay the price of a more complicated entry, I'm more than willing to pay and push the lever down for step-in. Actually, I got quite used to it and meanwhile also fix the dynafit-equipped ski with my pole when stepping in. That's what I wanted to express with the citations.


    Regarding the toe release values: It's rumoured to be around somewhere of 7ish, while the G3 guys claim, their toe is a little stronger and you can click it up with the lever in some -rather vague- steps.
    But there were rumours last year, that Dynafit hat the FT's, that were sold with the widest breaks, were equipped with stronger springs (Still couldn't figure out, whether it was true. One sales-rep denied, one agreed, that I was talking to.).
    In my eyes, that could be a solution for the heavy user with big boots. Have a tune-up set with stronger springs.

  18. #68
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    sorry, but posting three questions is not harassing.
    I should have put a next to that, sorry. I really do wish you luck, I hope you figure out what works best for you. It hasn't been an easy decision for me. Sick of lugging Dukes around, sure as hell never gonna set foot in Fritchies though.

    Not too stoked after reading this by a commenter at wildsnow, but I'm really not all that surprised considering what the heel lifter assembly consists of. Oh well, maybe I'll be reincarnated as a 135 pound German Mountain Elf in my next lifetime. Until then I'll be treading lightly.

    upon receiving our first shipment of radical bindings, at our ski shop, the boys and I immediately ripped em out of the box and began to scrutinize them,, the toe looks great, with improved functionality across the board. But the heel risers seemed to be really flimsy and not very durable. enter boot and demo board, after some stomping around with a similar force as setting a icy step on a traverse, the new and improved heel risers failed. and by failed i mean broke off the heel piece. not so sweet.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  19. #69
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    Tone, no need to say sorry, my mistake I didn't read between the lines. And this is TGR, where posters grow a spine :-), right ?
    I still have three options: Onyx or Radical toes to go with my almost unbreakable Vertical heels or Plum Guides if the Plum brothers accept my offer they can't refuse for testing their new brakes. Cost-effective option is Dynafit, nice option is Plum and most probable option is Onyx.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  20. #70
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    Read this blog and subsequent comments regarding option 1:

    http://www.tetonat.com/2011/10/30/dy...f-both-worlds/
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  21. #71
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    Interesting. I may even consider Plum toes to go with Vertical heels. But my Zeuss boots will probably benefit more from the Radical Power Towers. I started this thread to get answers, but it seems I'm harvesting questions. Option 4 is to wait several months and get yelled at for prereleasing.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tone capone View Post
    Not too stoked after reading this by a commenter at wildsnow, but I'm really not all that surprised considering what the heel lifter assembly consists of.
    I played with a Radical in shop yesterday (inTokyoImsomuchbetterthanyou). That first heel-riser flip over platform just screamed weakness. My gut said it would fail fast. That comment from wildsnow supports it, though is only one data point. I kind of giggled out loud when I saw it first time and after mumbling WTF I assumed that surely Dynafit Corp tested the crap out of such an obvious possible point of failure?? The heel assembly also rotated in both directions, which I understood to be not the new design concept they have introduced - hence the big red arrow on it.

    I'm sure as hell not buying Radicals first season of release.
    Life is not lift served.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hohes View Post
    The heel assembly also rotated in both directions, which I understood to be not the new design concept they have introduced - hence the big red arrow on it.
    the radical heel assembly will rotate in both directions while in ski mode. (it's gotta rotate to release...right?) BUT, once they are put into tour mode, they will not rotate the 1/4 counter-clockwise turn back to ski mode. nope...won't happen.

    edit: i'm willing to be the guinea pig testing the radicals out. i tried some of the original click-clack lifters about 6 years ago and broke them quite easily. i think the radical lifters will probably hold up for most people and i bet the "carpet demo board test" produced some pretty weird forces on the bindings...much different from what happens when they are on a 180cm long ski. time will tell, but i do know some folks are already working out some mods and aftermarket parts for the radicals, so they will probably be better overall in the long run regardless.
    Teton AT
    Live to Ski!

  24. #74
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    Sweeeet! I was hoping something like that was the case.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  25. #75
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    Epic post incoming

    Quote Originally Posted by jackass View Post
    I totally agree. Dynafit sold the Vertical FT 12 as a DIN12. Not single warning for heavy or tall skiers that don't ski like elfs. Or a warning for chatter or icy snow. So the product was flawed. I emailed Dynafit (Salewa) and asked for a (paid or free) upgrade of my 'flawed' toe bindings that won't even reach DIN6 under certain conditions. But they didn't even bother to answer. Imagine a car manufacturer selling a car that does 150 mph, but the wheels come off at 60mph when you hit a bump, I'd spell that R E C A L L. But for bindings, Dynafit assumes (right or wrong ?) it is my responsibility to brake my neck using their DIN6 toe binding. Ofcourse I can lock the toe to avoid breaking my neck, instead breaking my knee.
    Don't get me wrong, I love Dynafit, but I paid topdollar for a flawed toe binding and I honestly think they should compensate the Vertical buyers with some sort of upgrade policy.
    Jack, your analogy is flawed. To modify your analogy, the wheels are supposed to come off at 80mph and instead they're coming off at 60. That's not a design failure, that's a discrepancy.

    It's a safety release binding. That means that it's supposed to hold you in until a certain point, and then kick you out, but that point is really a range (+/- 2 DIN in-use, a potential variance of 200+ newton-meters for a vertical heel release for example, assuming that tech bindings are certified, which they're not even though they're built to release at the same ranges), and it's not a guarantee that real life conditions will ever live up to simulated release functions. I'm a 6'4" 230lb 25 year old and I've yet to have a problem on hard chattery snow with Dynafits. I don't ski them like race bindings, I acknowledge their limitations and they treat me well because of it, as they do for thousands of other people.

    I don't say this to discount your experience, but rather to temper your conviction that you are in a superior position to make claims as if everyone else was backing you. They are not. Whether your experience is due to human error (your own or others) or faulty products, you are not entitled to an upgrade; at best, a replacement in kind. If you think you've got a defective set of toes, call up Dynafit and ask for an RA, but be prepared to to convince them that they truly are defective. If you think you've got a bad mount, take it to a shop and have them fix it. If you can't adapt your skiing to the bindings, lock the toe or go buy a different kind. If you don't like those options, it's probably time to pick up snowboarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by tone capone View Post
    These things were invented for skis with less than 80 millimeter waists and haven't adapted to ever increasing ski widths till now.

    I bet most of the issues are from people trying to mount these things on 110+ waist skis. Asking for trouble in my opinion.
    I have nothing to compare it to but (despite the internet's circle-jerk magnification effect) there don't seem to be a whole lot of complaints out there. Add in the fact that everybody in the US is skiing on 95+ waisted skis and throw in the extra mass and aggressiveness of your average BC skier in North America and you end up way off the "European" bell curve, so I think the problem is pretty minimal.

    That said, go read Lou's blog about binding mount widths and realize that plenty of other AT/alpine bindings seem to get by just fine with similar mounting widths, notably:

    "- Marker Titanium alpine, base 45 mm, 4 screws at 34 mm width.
    - Marker F12 Tour, base 66, 4 screws at 34mm width.
    - Fritschi Freeride Pro, base 73 mm, screws at 34 mm width."

    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Just because a manufacture uses the term "DIN" to denote a release value does not mean that the binding is actually TUV certified to the DIN ISO standard. Furthermore the DIN ISO release standard only goes up to 10, any binding with a release value over 10 is not being certified to any actual standard.

    There is no DIN ISO standard for tech bindings or tech fittings. There has been mumblings about one in the works.
    I actually remember hearing that Plum is TUV certified, but I would go to them for confirmation. Dynafit bindings are not currently certified (though they've been trying for years), and when I talk to customers I will generally use release value instead of saying DIN, but that's the only thing most customers recognize so sometimes I have to revert to using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tone capone View Post
    Not too stoked after reading this by a commenter at wildsnow, but I'm really not all that surprised considering what the heel lifter assembly consists of. Oh well, maybe I'll be reincarnated as a 135 pound German Mountain Elf in my next lifetime. Until then I'll be treading lightly.
    Quote Originally Posted by randosteve View Post
    the radical heel assembly will rotate in both directions while in ski mode. (it's gotta rotate to release...right?) BUT, once they are put into tour mode, they will not rotate the 1/4 counter-clockwise turn back to ski mode. nope...won't happen.

    edit: i'm willing to be the guinea pig testing the radicals out. i tried some of the original click-clack lifters about 6 years ago and broke them quite easily. i think the radical lifters will probably hold up for most people and i bet the "carpet demo board test" produced some pretty weird forces on the bindings...much different from what happens when they are on a 180cm long ski. time will tell, but i do know some folks are already working out some mods and aftermarket parts for the radicals, so they will probably be better overall in the long run regardless.
    The top plate of the new Radicals is all metal underneath a bit of plastic that houses the "position retention" spring things. To break off the lifters would require that you either a) break the solid aluminum alloy? lifter piece itself or b) rip a thick steel pin out of the two steel brackets holding it in place. To take the the whole top plate off would require ripping out all 4 torx screws from the heel unity body. As Steve said, stomping on it in the shop is not indicative of real world use so until I start seeing warranties I'll keep selling the kool-aid.

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