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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    I think you completely misunderstood his point, which seemed quite clear to me.
    you sure about that?

    rog

  2. #27
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    or another way to put it is:

    WITHOUT an airbag, 13% of all people in an avalanche DIE and 26% get totally buried.
    WITH an airbag, 1.5% of of all people in an avalanche DIE and 3% get buried with no immediate trace, and 13% get totally buried but with visual clue to location.

    so yeah, according to the Swiss snow institute, who have done without question the most research on avalanches, you are 1/10 as likely to die, and 1/2 as likely to get totally buried. i dunno man. that math makes a lot of sense to me...


    facts from:
    http://www.avivest.com/research/statistics.php
    http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/Airbags.asp
    go for rob

    www.dpsskis.com

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    according to the swiss avalanche institute, without airbag, and completely burried mortality rate is ~50%, and mortality rate is 13% of all folks caught in an avalanche.

    obviously the following has a smaller sample size, but is still meaningful. with an airbag (ABS in this study), mortality rate in an avalanche is sub 1.5%. only 3% of people are totally burried, nothing visible, and 13% were totally buried, but the airbag was visible.

    so to put the numbers meaningfully, if a skier is involved in a slide, with an airbag, they have a 16/100 chance of being buried completely. with out an airbag, statistics show that 8 out of these 16 people would die. statistics show that WITH an airbag, 1 out of these 16 people would die.

    YMMV, but that, well... convinced me to get one, and ski with it basically all the time
    the way i see it is, the more folks that get airbags will push the envelope and get caught in more slides. more confidence, more lines pushed, more cord pulled, more of a chance for folks to live, but more folks may die also. "just in case's" like an avalung or airbag kill by increasing exposure confidence.

    just my .02

    rog

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    I think you completely misunderstood his point, which seemed quite clear to me.
    Yes, he completely missed my point.

  5. #30
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    nope^^^^^^^^^

    rog

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    nope^^^^^^^^^

    rog
    So what is my point genius?

  7. #32
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    rog-

    see my analogy about hitting your head into a rock wall with a helmet on. if your brain works different than that, sweet. but dude, nobody that i know is TRYING to get into an avalanche regardless of the safety gear.

    a 16% chance of total burial still has a VERY high likely hood of massive internal bleeding, severed leg/arm, paralysis, etc. its not like just because you didn't die you won't have a life altering injury, and you will likely have AN INJURY regardless. so if someone is stupid enough to kick slides off, thinking an airbag will save them from any and all potential issues, well... that is not my problem.

    i have a 45 and a bullet proof vest. if you put on the bullet proof vest, do you still want me to shoot you in the leg? police statistics and anatomy show there is a 2% likely hood that i will sever your femoral artery and you will die, so its no big deal, right?

    avalanches are scary stuff, that NOBODY wants to trigger.
    go for rob

    www.dpsskis.com

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post

    avalanches are scary stuff, that NOBODY wants to trigger.
    There is one sure fire way to not ever get caught in an avalanche.......
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfotex View Post
    There is one sure fire way to not ever get caught in an avalanche.......
    stay in town and get run over by a bus?
    go for rob

    www.dpsskis.com

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    you sure about that?

    rog
    Absofugginlutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    stay in town and get run over by a bus?
    I'm more worried about tainted cantaloupes, but a bus works too.
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  12. #37
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    Picked up an ABS vario 18 ul on spring sale this may. With the carbon canister that we get here in europe it weighs in at 2993 grams on my kitchen scale. Not bad compared to the 1490 grams that my covert avalung 30L weighs.

    The extra weight of the abs system is placed against your back as well, and the carrying system is burly (needs to be i guess, to keep your body floating in an avalanche) so i find it stays put and skis well.

    The 18L pack is minimalist but works fine for lift served and I just about managed to get my usual spring touring gear in there as well. Shovel, probe, emergency bivy, first aid/repair kit, light down jacket, skins , hydration bladder and a bit of food. When the skins are on the skis there's room for a shell jacket as well. Helmet and kneepads go in the external clip-on helmet mesh pouch thingy. Diagonal ski carry can be rigged with a pair of voile straps or similar.

    Getting the new 40L vario this year to supplement for bigger tours where rope, crampons, ice axe etc. is needed. No chance to get that into the 18L.

    New 40L with A-frame carry:

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #38
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    The airbag is legit regardless of which one you buy. Like with anything, you get what you pay for. More money usually means better shit, not always, but usually. In this case the more expensive ABS and Snowpulse product offer some things that the others don't.

  14. #39
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    My helmet doesn't make me ski/bike...
    My seatbelt doesn't make me drive...
    My avy gear doesn't make me choose my ski lines...

    ...recklessly.
    Putting the "core" in corporate, one turn at a time.

    Metalmücil 2010 - 2013 "Go Home" album is now a free download

    The Bonin Petrels

  15. #40
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    Interesting topic. For me it is easy to see both the argument of absolutely why not have one on at all times, versus having some skepticism about the true utility.

    I think that the euro stats probably don't transfer over here completely because the typical terrain there is ideal for airbag usage. That is, alpine terrain without a lot of obstacles and runout zones that fan out or end in a flat spot/roll as opposed to dense forrest. But the fact is that if you can stay near the top and swim more effectively, you should be better off. The story from a Jones Pass local last year escaping a rag doll over cliffy terrain due to being able to swim to the side after pulling was pretty convincing for me.

    I am getting the blackjack and hope to never need it. I can think of one time I would have pulled in the last 10 years of bc skiing, which is the only time I've been slid. I wasn't buried, but the bottom line for me is that the marginal cost of $500 is peanuts in retrospect if I need the floatation and have to use it. The ski industry is going to look back at the times when patrollers didn't wear these and wonder what the delay was for. I can't imagine guiding or patrolling or being out and exposed day-in-day-out without having the best mitigation tools available. Whether the average joe bc skier, or the trustafarian high school berthoud tourers start wearing them, and whether their boldness increases, will be interesting to see.

  16. #41
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    rog-

    see my analogy about hitting your head into a rock wall with a helmet on. if your brain works different than that, sweet. but dude, nobody that i know is TRYING to get into an avalanche regardless of the safety gear.

    a 16% chance of total burial still has a VERY high likely hood of massive internal bleeding, severed leg/arm, paralysis, etc. its not like just because you didn't die you won't have a life altering injury, and you will likely have AN INJURY regardless. so if someone is stupid enough to kick slides off, thinking an airbag will save them from any and all potential issues, well... that is not my problem.
    N
    i have a 45 and a bullet proof vest. if you put on the bullet proof vest, do you still want me to shoot you in the leg? police statistics and anatomy show there is a 2% likely hood that i will sever your femoral artery and you will die, so its no big deal, right?

    avalanches are scary stuff, that NOBODY wants to trigger.
    I'm not the right person to talk helmets with as I don't wear one, but to each their own. My point is that folks put too much emphasis on safety gear and not enough on knowing what surrounds them in the mountains. Yes a helmet may help you out if you hit rocks with yer head. My point is, don't hit yer head in the 1st place. Learn to ski In control in all snow types and pitches. Yes an airbag saves lives, but why maybe put yerself in a position where you'd need it. All this talk about pulling cord and air refills is rediculous. Like a whole new sport of ripping in from the top and pulling cord for fun. Not everyone would do that of course, but enough probably will. Time will tell.

    Rog

  17. #42
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    roger, do you ski with out beacon/shove/probe? same argument there.
    go for rob

    www.dpsskis.com

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    My point is, don't hit yer head in the 1st place.

    Yes an airbag saves lives, but why maybe put yerself in a position where you'd need it.
    You know the best skiers in the world crash too, right? But thanks for the advise.

    The backcountry = a position where you may need it. As mentioned above, if you don't want to be in that position, eat poisoned cantaloupe while getting run over by a bus.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    roger, do you ski with out beacon/shove/probe? same argument there.
    Yes those are the basics and things you should have for yours and other parties that might fuck up in the bc. I don't consider those the same argument really.

    Rog

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkendrenchman View Post
    You know the best skiers in the world crash too, right? But thanks for the advise.
    best skiers fall when they are not paying attention to what they are doing, or are skiing lines above their ability for the speed they are carrying, or that the conditions allow.

    Since I don't fall does that mean I'm better? ok I dragged a hand a few years back. Pissed me off.

    Rog

  21. #46
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    Sfotex. Yo give me a call. I have a snowpulse 40 you can comenover and check out. I ordered up a 30 since I'm to weak to haul the 40 around and keep up.

    B
    No matter where you go, there you are. - BB

  22. #47
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    In my part of the world reckon many people already over estimate their understanding of how avalanche conditions and terrain characteristics work in concert, or at a minimum, they subconsciously refuse to admit how much they don't actually know, or they pay lip service to any admission. Even if no one would admit it, airbags will be used as a substitute for both being conservative as a default approach, and also for gaining knowledge from 100's and 100's of days decision making experience front and center in avalanche terrain.

    Then when airbags start saving more burials, it will hit the internet with "thank god I had an av airbag!!!". And then the absolutely uninformed occasional backcountry skiers will rush to buy them. Pretty soon avalanche problem solving will become a function of your backpack and a ripcord, rather than using terrain and keeping your human emotional biases under control.

    Of course, there is always risk and everything in your favor of living helps. I expose myself perhaps 200-300 times every year to Size 2 avalanche paths (or larger) and would happily get a 40L pack if it was suitable. However refilling them in Japan is a major PITA. As far as I have heard, you can't even get a scuba tank re-filled unless you hold a scuba license/or license to own the tank in the first place. Obviously that is not relevant to this particular discussion.
    Last edited by neck beard; 10-31-2011 at 09:20 PM.
    Life is not lift served.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    but why maybe put yerself in a position where you'd need it.
    I knew this guy that was the safest driver in the world, so he never wore a seatbelt because he knew that he would never make a driving mistake. Died a few years ago when he got hit by a drunk driver. Turns out the only way to not die in a moving vehicle is never go in one......
    When life gives you haters, make haterade.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshalolson View Post
    would you rather beater your head into a rock with a helmet on, and only be with someone with no medical training... or would you rather get crash head first into a rock wall, wearing a beanie, and have a surgeon there?

    either way, you are probably not LOOKING to smash your head into rock with a helmet on, but if it happens, why would you prefer to NOT have one on? because the helmet is 4x the price of a beanie? because it weights twice as much? really?
    Smart analogy.

    They have been testing airbag technology for over 10 years now. The systems have been improving every year. I bought mine this year seeing that the packs offered the features I desired in the BC. I opted for the BCA float 30 but have no affiliation with them.

    Here is one study that support an airbag:

    Avalanche Balloons – Preliminary Test Results: http://www.slf.ch/ueber/mitarbeiter/...n_ISSW1996.pdf

    and more can be found here: http://www.wildsnow.com/3736/airbag-overview/
    Last edited by TheDon; 10-31-2011 at 10:49 PM. Reason: add link
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinalTap View Post
    I'm really troubled by whatever pictures the Don had to search through to arrive at that one...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by hop View Post
    My helmet doesn't make me ski/bike...
    My seatbelt doesn't make me drive...
    My avy gear doesn't make me choose my ski lines...

    ...recklessly.
    Truth^^^

    I'm also most convinced by the type of stats that Marshal is quoting. makes it seem like the best investment you can make in terms of snow safety gear...though garuda's thoughts on whether those stats are terrain or continent specific is interesting. Given that top of the line beacons are pushing $500 and most AT boots will set you back $500-700 these days it really doesn't seem like that big an expense if considered as part of a kit though. And, having been buried in training scenarios a few times, I'll give my left nut to improve my odds of staying on top of the snow.

    I haven't tested or tried on ANY of the models out there, but followed the various reviews on this board and Wildsnow. My perspective on investing in new safety gear was mostly informed by experience w/ the avalanug as the "state of the art" a few years ago. I started w/ a covert or anarchist (whatever the ~36L pack was called), but was never all that thrilled w/ the pack itself and found that I didn't really believe in the merits of the technology (avalung) enough to want multiple packs that would fit all of my most common uses (day trips, hut trips, a bit of sidecountry) so I went w/ a standard avalung after two years and just swap it around 2 osprey packs that are time tested.

    Given that history, with the airbag I've been most focused on the utility of the pack itself. I like the idea of the swap-able vario system, but the mystery ranch option seemed like a single pack that is a good option for hut trips and most of my day trips and the price point is low enough to jump in. Fact that system is removable and the pack becomes a really nice mid volume pack suitable for other seasons is certainly another consideration.

    early adopters are most likely to be older (more income, more attuned to risk) and have a higher level of snow safety education in the first place, so it might take quite a few years and a continual drop in price point before we get the equivalent of the stud-finder-as-beacon user of airbag packs. Nothing that demographic may do has any bearing on the merits of the product to those with some training and a sober approach to this risky pursuit.

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