Thread: Info needed from Telemark Skiers

Originally Posted by rangerjake

I can understand folks who say there time was wasted on Tuas and Rivas, but do you equate that level of crappy gear to Targas and Kilowatts? In a relative sense the Targa/Kilowatt/T2 combo is what passes for light and neutral these days. But they aren't really that puny in the grand scheme of where things have come from. And I think that is the essence of why I would rather start folks on that type of gear. .

if you read the internet G3's suck and nobody skis them

in real life in Canada anyhow G3 /7TM would be THE most likley binding to see on the hill by a long shot probably due to MEC but IMO all a binding is supposed to do is hold the boot to the ski and I gotta ask if you can't ski without an active binding and that other guy over there can ... why is that?

if someone comes in who is already rocking big alpine gear they can start with & rock big tele gear in pretty short order

Originally Posted by Big Steve

NTN is its own species. NTN is not Nordic gear. NTN is closer to heavy stiff alpine gear w/o a heel binding, a barely flexible bellows and a super active (and very heavy and mechanically complex) binding which is necessary to promote flexing of the barely flexible bellows. I don't begrudge someone for skiing NTN in lift areas but NTN is an absurd choice for touring.

Uh well, the NTN Scarpa Pro TX is a very soft bellowed boot, and the cartidges can be chosen to give the binding a more or less neutral flex so you can get that soft bellows/active binding combo BS speaks of upthread. And the NTN binding isn't really any heavier than, say, the 22 Designs Axl touring binding. Over all the weight and activity of a NTN compares favorably with most touring set ups - mfr's weight for the Scarpa NTN Pro = 7 lb 8 oz vs 8lb 10 for the T1. Axl bindings weigh about the same as NTN. The touring ROM is less, but many people don't notice that.

That said, I would (and in my recent shop rat daze, did) at least have a serious discussion with a noob about going NTN. Getting the NTN system dialed in for some one can be a little complex. but once it's done, it's the best skiing system (IMO/IME). I'll tour in it too if I'm feeling tele (though I haul out the tech bindings for a big, big day). I gave up on 75 mm, and I've been almost exclusively skiing tele since my Chouinard 3-pin bindings on Fischer Europa 77s (<-old-timer dickwave). NTN has many advantages over 75 mm - EZ in/EZ out, brakes, customization, releasable (<-huge in the bc, nice in bounds) and the set-up isn't really heavier. The Switchback is a nice binding, and lighter, no question...also no release.

One reason a lot of people haven't gone to NTN yet is the cost of new boots + bindings purchased together, but a beginner doesn't have that problem, so it's a good time to think real hard about going that way.

my $.02.

Big Steve - you are right - I was agreeing with you that softer bellows was easier to learn. However your assessment of NTN leaves me wondering if you have actually skied it? A TX or TX pro NTN setup is significantly easier to to flex the bellows than any of my previous 75mm setups including my old blue T2s.

I would also point out that contrary to commonly spouted myth they are not superactive - probably a ~2 or 3 on the hammerhead scale depending on the spring that you use.

As for touring - I agree with the points that Meadow Skipper made above - I tour on my NTN exclusivly and would not consider anything else unless I was touring flats.

Okay, yeah, some NTN boot bellows are more flexy. I've tried NTN for a couple days. The setup I tried was like HH#4, i.e., oodles of control. But clunky and heavy. An exploded NTN binding in the field is an ugly sight.

My issue with NTN is about tele being a Nordic technique developed for light flexible Nordic gear. NTN is anything but that.

Originally Posted by gritter

. . . I tour on my NTN exclusivly and would not consider anything else unless I was touring flats.

If you tried TLT5s or Maestrale/Rush with Dynafits, I'd bet you consider something else for touring : )

Meadow Skipper: A meadow skipper on NTN?

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Uh well, the NTN Scarpa Pro TX is a very soft bellowed boot. . . .

Relative to T1, T2X, newer T2 and other NTN. But it's much stiffer than traditional leather tele boots, i.e., real Nordic gear.

The move back towards real Nordic tele gear is afoot -- a development which was inevitable IVO of the new ultralight ultratourable Tech AT systems. BD is bringing back the T4, Voile is making a waxless ski with a mid-90 waist. That's real tele in the Nordic tradition. Nice to see the marketplace finally getting it -- Nordic gear for Nordic terrain; alpine gear for alpine terain. Duh.

Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper

Over all the weight and activity of a NTN compares favorably with most touring set ups - mfr's weight for the Scarpa NTN Pro = 7 lb 8 oz vs 8lb 10 for the T1. Axl bindings weigh about the same as NTN. The touring ROM is less, but many people don't notice that.

You must mean "most tele touring setups," right? "Touring" includes AT, of course. TX Pros + NTN bindings are boat anchors compared to my TLT5/Dynafit Speed combo, yet the latter is more tourable, walkable, skiable, durable and scramble-friendly. That's my point.

If you are limiting weight comparisons to tele (IMO a purely academic exercise because touring is touring): With a T4 or Excursion, a free pivot binding is not necessary. The light (i.e., true Nordic) end of the tele spectrum is T4/Excursion with Voile Hardwires, a combo which works fine for a good tele skier anywhere and for any decent tele skier in Nordic terrain. While T4/Excursion + Hardwires is not as light as TLT5/Rush + Speeds, it's close and certainly far lighter than any NTN combo.

i agree with the general idea that the active bindings (or binding settings) helps beginners "get" the back foot feel, which is important.

To answer the general question of the OP, IME as a former salesperson in a mountain shop, it depends on where the customer is coming from and their objectives. Do they have abackground or previous experience with nordic or XCD? Are they essentially complete beginners to sliding on snow? Are they very confident, athletic, and "aggressive alpine skiers"? etc. Do they want to meadow skip? Do they want to mainly play in the resorts? ski-mountaineer? How are they going to learn: from somebody on xcd gear in the backcountry, friend on head monsters, resort instructor, etc.? All of this information would influence advice and recommendations that I would give to a customer. So there is a lot of dependence on the sales staff. There was typical training after hours, then training on the sales floor, and often encouragement of the newer staff and intermediate/beginner tele skiers that were staff to demo lots gear early in the season to see for themselves.

Having a nice breadth in a demo fleet is a good thing, too.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Okay, yeah, some NTN boot bellows are more flexy. I've tried NTN for a couple days. The setup I tried was like HH#4, i.e., oodles of control. But clunky and heavy. An exploded NTN binding in the field is an ugly sight.

Things have changed a lot in the last three years.

My issue with NTN is about tele being a Nordic technique developed for light flexible Nordic gear. NTN is anything but that.If you tried TLT5s or Maestrale/Rush with Dynafits, I'd bet you consider something else for touring : )

Meadow Skipper: A meadow skipper on NTN?

Yeah, I chose my handle to piss off some guy when I first signed up. I shoulda picked Meadow Faerie.

Relative to T1, T2X, newer T2 and other NTN. But it's much stiffer than traditional leather tele boots, i.e., real Nordic gear.

Hey, no one knows that better'n me. But I thought this discussion was about noob telemarkers which I took to mean T2s v. T1s v. NTN or whatever - the heavier end.

You must mean "most tele touring setups," right? "Touring" includes AT, of course. TX Pros + NTN bindings are boat anchors compared to my TLT5/Dynafit Speed combo, yet the latter is more tourable, walkable, skiable, durable and scramble-friendly. That's my point.

Again, the discussion was tele, and as I mentioned I have a tech set up so I know about the lightness of that stuff.

If you are limiting weight comparisons to tele (IMO a purely academic exercise because touring is touring): With a T4 or Excursion, a free pivot binding is not necessary. The light (i.e., true Nordic) end of the tele spectrum is T4/Excursion with Voile Hardwires, a combo which works fine for a good tele skier anywhere and for any decent tele skier in Nordic terrain. While T4/Excursion + Hardwires is not as light as TLT5/Rush + Speeds, it's close and certainly far lighter than any NTN combo.

Well, I'd say that discussion needs to come before the "What do I need to learn to turn on?" question gets addressed.

All fair comments.

As I stated upthread, the other threshold question is "Why do I want to learn to tele?" If the answer is "to tour where tele gear works best," then IMO the noob ought to get and learn on light gear. If the answer is "I want to lift ski with tele gear to look cool" or "I'm an alpine skier and I want to take on the tele challenge but I'll stick to the lifts," then NTN works. But if the answer is "I want to get into touring," then, unless the noob plans to spend all or most of his/her time in low angle terrain, the recommendation should be "get Dynafits."

Anyway, I'm giving you NTN guys some shit because for me it's about getting out there and touring. For too many years, I participated in the big boot>active binding>bigger boot>more active binding>biggest boot>most active binding upward spiral, watched tele metamorphose away from its Nordic roots and, worst of all, watched most (though not all) telemarkers get all hung up on the turn at the expense of getting out there an touring. When, after 15 years of exclusively teleing I switched to Dynafits, I immediately doubled my touring days and more than doubled my touring verts. I've watched others do the same thing.

I'll continue to tele on rolling terrain tours, where tele gear works best. I'm delighted to see the market's move back to light tele gear.

To the Op thanks for asking this question. I wish more shops thought the way you do. To many shops are full of young rippers who think everyone wants to straight line everything.

I teach telemark a lot. I work at A-Basin. I think you should offer a wide range of gear for all types of skier to demo. Having said that my biggest pet peeve by far is when a beginner student show up in stiff 4 buckle boots and stiff skis. It is near impossible to get a beginner to flex the boot and weight the ball of the foot with a stiff boot. As far as skis a beginner is not going to be going fast enough to flex a stiff ski in to any kind of shape to make the ski carve nor will they be able to twist or skid a stiff ski to make short turns. I would prefer a beginner had some moderately active binding. If they are very big with a strong snow sports background I would put them in a T-2 / SynerG with a softer and shorter ski then they are used to. Even the best alpine athlete is not going to overpower a short soft tele ski on his first few days or in a 3 hour lesson.

If they are smaller and or with less experience I would put them in boot a step down from a T-2.

I would also not recommend T-4 boots and older XCD type of gear for a resort lesson. While I will still be able to teach them proper stance and movements this light gear will significantly effect the learning curve and the type of terrain we can go on. With strong alpine skiers boarders it is nice to be able to just make alpine turns to get started and get familiar with the gear and or to just open it up and ski through a section if they get frustrated or we need to move quickly. On super light XCD gear we can't do this.

^ Well, I do agree. This year I'll get a dynafit setup as well, in addition to the duke setups I already have.
But it's not because of the weight of the NTN/boots or the ROM, nor the angle of the terrain, it has more to do with what kind of snow I'll be skiing. Can one tele in crap snow? Yes. Is it any fun? Not so much.

When it comes to what I'd recommend for a customer, I would not recommend tele for beginning skiers planning to ski less than, say, 10-15 days a year. Go alpine instead.

For advanced skiers looking for a new challenge in-bounds/BC, or those looking for a dedicated touring set-up, I mostly agree with Big Steve, NTN/HH for the former, and tech/duke for the last.

Big Steve, while I respect your opinion on why you do what you do I think it has little to do with why people take up tele. I don't think you will ever get this answer to why people take a lesson."to tour where tele gear works best," I ask people why they are trying tele in all my lessons. I almost always get an answer something like I thought it looked cool or grace full and wanted to try something new. I think we should put them on gear that will make that goal the easiest and most fun to accomplish.


I also think it is not either or. I ski on NTN with TX Comps and 120 waist skis and I also ski on leathers, Excursions with XCD type gear and gear in the middle. I like and see a purpose for all of it.

James

Regarding NTN. I think you could put a smaller person on NTN with TX Pros or TX and dial the cartridge settings so they could learn to tele. On a 200 pound person you will have to dial the cartridges so high for release it will be very uncomfortable and to much work to flex the boot and get in a tele position for a beginner.

James

Originally Posted by JONG Q Public

Big Steve, while I respect your opinion on why you do what you do I think it has little to do with why people take up tele.

Sounds like you are dealing with a subset of tele noobies. If that's the answer you are getting from everyone, then we agree on the best gear for those people. If you, as I sometimes do, hung around XC skiers, you'd get the other answer. There are plenty of people who ski XC tracks and/or logging roads and/or meadow skip, and who want to learn how to tele for those conditions and don't have much interest in lift skiing other than to develop their technique. Those people may not be in the subset coming to you for lessons, but those people do exist. Indeed, I was one of those people when I first got into telemarking decades ago. My SO, a very good athlete, pretty good AT tourist and XC skier, is one of the people in the subset I'm talking about. She bought used T2's (like new T3's) and she wants to learn to tele for low angle rolling tours. I'll put her on HHs to learn but after she's got the skills she'll be on Switchbacks and waxless skis, i.e., a real Nordic setup. She has no interest in using tele gear where one of her Dyna rigs are the better tool.

Originally Posted by sf

Can one tele in crap snow? Yes. Is it any fun? Not so much.

just like with alpine binders or a snowboard, it depends on the driver....


and Mr. jong-q, isn't "dial the cartridge" a multi-day event?

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

just like with alpine binders or a snowboard, it depends on the driver....

Just like the question of what a newby should learn on ... it depends on the pilot

I have a long time tentative terminal intermediate telemarker aqaintence who only meadow skips the BC in BC to whom I suggested she do some practise on the hill ,she promptly broke her wrist ... I felt kinda responsible

well you definitely didn't get her over the fear of falling, assuming this is one of the things that kept her in the intermediate rut.....

I think she was intermediate cuz she was tentative

I kinda think if you are going slow enough to feel anything you are tentative so its better to just jump on that rear ski and hope you got it pointed in the right direction and if you don't ... better figure it out quick

Which is probably why I am a big gear fan cuz I don't want to feel how much tele gear sucks I can do a tele turn on skate gear maybe 8 out of 10 times but its only for being all hollywood in front of the xc center and isnt that much fun

X2 on everything Big Steve is preaching. Everything is going full circle. Telemark gear has evolved into alpine gear, what is the point? Put the noobs on the lightest gear possible and they'll either figure it out for its intended purposes or move on to (or back to), alpine that much quicker, because telemarking on light gear is in fact hard and dumb.

Full disclosure: started on leather lace ups and finally sold all my tele shit except for some waxless metal edged skis w/ 3 pins and T3s. Rock the tele turn screwing around on the skate and classic gear sometimes, otherwise it was just a silly 20 year fad I did.

Originally Posted by hick

...Telemark gear has evolved into alpine gear, what is the point? ... because telemarking on light gear is in fact hard and dumb.

You answered your own question.

how about folks who wana have a free heel but not too free so they can't ski without an active binding and will discuss adnauseum the merits of each one

if you want active you really can't get much more active than an alpine binding, all that other stuff is akin to trying to be just a little bit pregnant

Big Steve - I get what you say about light weight tele gear for rolling terrain and flats. If I did any of that then I'd be on leathers and 3pins in an instant.

But here is a serious question: I ski 50% of my time in resorts doing sidecountry and the other 50% 'touring for turns'. NTN is great for sidecountry - I can ski it harder than dynafits, I don't have to tit around with leashes and it allows me to tour just fine. On pure touring days I do sometimes wish I could shed a little weight from the binding, but to be honest I am normally rocking 112 - 120 underfoot skis and so I'm never going to be racing up the hills. For these applications would you really give up the feel of the teleturn in soft snow? When stood at the top of a huge powder run would you not miss it?... just a little?... just a nagging little thought - oh I which I had my tele gear on now?

It's a serious question - I have never skied alpine, but assume that the transition would not be too difficult if I tried. I just feel that I'd miss the teleturn, and now that I'm on NTN I'm not sure that I want to go to the fiddle factor of dynafits in the resort so that mean that I'd have to get a dynafit and a duke setup...

Originally Posted by gritter

NTN is great for sidecountry - I can ski it harder than dynafits. . .

I have no idea what you trying to say here.

For these applications would you really give up the feel of the teleturn in soft snow?

Yes. I already have. 5 years ago. Not one moment of regret.

When stood at the top of a huge powder run would you not miss it?... just a little?... just a nagging little thought - oh I which I had my tele gear on now?

Nope. I get out the big heavy tele gear every now and then for fun on the lifts -- and each time confirm why I switched to ultralight AT for alpine terrain tours. I've never wished I had tele on an alpine terrain tour since I switched 200+ touring days ago. Dynafits => lighter, more control +> more verts => more fun.

I'm not one of the mob saying "tele is stupid." I'm just one of many former exclusive tele guys my age saying Nordic gear for Nordic terrain; alpine gear for alpine terrain.

I started out on tele, switched to alpine ~8 years in and skied 50/50 tele/alpine that first season. Now, it's probably 95/5 tele alpine. Dynafits only come out on big long tour days, and even then only sometimes. Otherwise, it's NTN.

Main reason: with NTN I can ski everything I can ski on Dynafits, but I can also make tele turns when I want to. If I make one tele turn a day it justifies being on free heel gear. YMMV.

Also, considering I'm generally touring on Pon2oons or obSETHed, the weight issue is a non-issue.

Wait .... I thought I logged on to TGR, but it sure feels like an unusually tight, focused TTips discussion .... Wow!

Incredibly good info here - truly impressed guys! Nothing really new to add, except to emphasize starting with the skiing background of the starting free heeler e.g. if they have a strong skiing background and are aggressive, don't put them on lighter gear, unless they specifically ask for light weight touring gear for true meadow skipping .... and stay away from any of the super stiff boots initially.

Along the nostalgia/geezer line of thought: any body use a pre-Riva I/1st gen. superloop (when the loop not only went around the heel but over the toe) binding called the "tele-extreme? Kind of a transition from 3-pin to the above mentioned bindings, using a three-pin toe piece (with or without the pins) and a Riva I style heel spring cable with a side throw, that attached to the toe piece with removable hooks? Kind of a PIA, but combined with Merrel SCs and 70 mm waisted, soft, single cambered skis were what hooked me on free heeling.

I am (was) an expert alpine skier, and switched to telemark skiing two seasons ago. Without ever (ever!) trying telemark skiing, I bought T1s, Hammerheads, and put them on Dynastar Legend Sultan 85s. I'm now a near expert telemark skier and can ski nearly any terrain, drop cliffs, rail on the hardpack, and shred the powpow. I now have a quiver with race room LPRs with Hammerhead and stiffy springs, LPR 115 with stiffy springed Axls, and still ski the Legend 85s early season/for groomers. I wish I had T-Races.

I think with a strong alpine background, you want boots that feel similar to your alpine boots (stiff, 4 buckle), and active bindings. As an alpine skier I never skied soft skis, so why would I want to start now? Stiff skis=big boots and active bindings.

Originally Posted by spyderracer393

. . . I bought T1s, Hammerheads. . . . I'm now a near expert telemark skier and can ski nearly any terrain, drop cliffs, rail on the hardpack, and shred the powpow. I now have a quiver with. . . Hammerhead and stiffy springs. . . stiffy springed Axls. . . .

I don't doubt your prowess, but with all due respect one cannot be a "near expert telemark skier" without first mastering telemarking on passive bindings and soft boots, which is what separates the experts from the non-experts. I was an early adopter of Terminators (before the T1/T2 designations) and skied HHs from the moment they hit the market, and was a big proponent of both, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that big boots and active bindings are telemark training wheels.