Thread: Info needed from Telemark Skiers

I am going to post this over at teletips too but my acct. there got disabled due to an email change. So any tele skiers here who want to contribute and share their $.02 would be wonderful.

I manage a Backcountry ski shop and there has been a disagreement recently about what gear, specifically boots, to start a beginning tele skier in. One viewpoint states that going with a softer, lighter 3 buckle option (syner-g, t2, seeker, etc) is the best way to go because when paired with a less active binding and an intermediate ski (not too stiff; mid 80s-mid 90s underfoot) it allows for more flex, the ability to feel out the dynamic of the tele turn and to get good form without struggling to flex a stiff boot and an active binding.

Second viewpoint states to start the skier in a beefier 4 buckle boot (T1, Push, Ener-G/Voodoo) because it will allow for better powering of big skis, more edge control. And it is more appropriate in resort terrain where it is likely to be used. Plus the skier will be able to do more terrain faster on the beef equipment.

My own opinion is that anyone who has tele'd for more than 7 years likely started on a 3 buckle boot, a neutral binding, and a narrower ski. As their skill progressed, their gear progressed. So if at all possible (keeping component matching as highest priority) having new skiers follow that progression, will allow them the most room to grow. Note that I am mostly considering folks who have/are making a switch from alpine to tele, not noob skiers all together.

Please, those with experience, share what you know, your opinions, analogies, etc. Tell us how long you have tele'd for, what gear you started on, how long it took you before getting into stiffer, more active stuff (if you have at all).

Thanks TGR mags.

Not much help, but I started on 200cm Arc Angels, Targa red binders and T-1's 6 years ago and I still use them as my Tele daily drivers.
Speed is your friend.

both viewpoints sound like good advice for customers - you need to offer BOTH types of boots for customers to demo so they can figure out what works best for them - they should not buy boots w/o trying SOMETHING

skinny skis suck to learn to tele on

I've been tele skiing for a lotta years, and I have worked in 3 mtn shops. I learned on leather boots and skinny skis. I cannot recommend it. After 2 seasons, I went to (1st generation) Scarpa Terminators and "fat" alpine skis. I'm now replacing my 6th pair (yikes!) of Scarpa boots (T-1 and T-Race) with BD Push.

my $.02

your customers' mileage may vary

I started w/ skinny skis and leathers. It took a very long time to get proficient and break bad habits.

I put my wife on some T1's and mid-fats. She's an expert alpine skier who picked up tele in matter of days.

Search functions sucks on ttips but its been discussed ad nauseum.

I wish I could have all those days back from when I rocked shitty skis and T-2's.

Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I wish I could have all those days back from when I rocked shitty skis and T-2's.

But do you think that those days made you a better skier on you beefier gear, or would you have just slayed regardless? And were you an alpine skier previous?

Thanks all for the insights. Keep em coming.

Originally Posted by rangerjake

My own opinion is that anyone who has tele'd for more than 7 years likely started on a 3 buckle boot, a neutral binding, and a narrower ski.

Buckles? Hell no. I started on Snowpines. There were no such things as buckles on tele boots when I started teleing.

IME, begining tele skiers have the steepest learning curve with a softer bellowed boot (e.g., old T-2, SynerG) and a fairly active binding (e.g., HH in #3 or #4). That combo lets the novice feel the back foot how and where it belongs, i.e., flexed, loaded and close to the ski deck.

I skied T1's for years but I never liked them because the bellows are too stiff. IME, T1's on passive binders suck for novices because they will tend to ski the rear ski with their tippy toes and thus develop bad habits.

Disclaimer: I love teleing on light gear on Nordic terrain but I think big heavy tele gear is stupid. I switched to AT for alpine terrain several years ago and dropped gear weight and gained control. I now tele only on light gear (T3, Switchbacks) on rolling Nordic terrain. My rule: Nordic gear for Nordic terrain. Alpine gear for alpine terrain.

Originally Posted by rangerjake

But do you think that those days made you a better skier on you beefier gear, or would you have just slayed regardless? And were you an alpine skier previous?

Thanks all for the insights. Keep em coming.

Telemarking on leathers/riva II's/ tua cirques was like hitting my thumb with a hammer while driving a nail ... it felt good when I stopped

I never felt or believed any of that " leathers are cool cuz you can feel the ball of yer foot stuff" , T-1's and big skis were way better at least until I spiral fractured my tib/fib

I rediscovered the fixed heel turn and now sport a "telemark skiing is stupid" sticker on my helmet that was presented to me by a group of telewankers from Cali

Riva II's? You're a youngster, eh? Riva side-throws and Riva II's were my 3rd and 4th set of tele bindings.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Riva II's? You're a youngster, eh? Riva side-throws and Riva II's were my 3rd and 4th set of tele bindings.

ya I found a set of those side throws for like 20$ which I then sold off on a tele-board to cut the losses ... but that is another post/adventure eh?

Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark

I wish I could have all those days back from when I rocked shitty skis and T-2's.

+1 on this. I quickly outgrew my starter setup, but didn't have the cash to upgrade, so I kept skiing on shitty gear, and it sucked. My experience is as a strong alpine skier. Most tele'ers poodle the rear ski anyway, why not at least give them a good boot to control the downhill ski with.

Sorry. All you crusty old timers in your leather boots and tiny bindings, forgive my silly plastic boot assumption.

I can understand folks who say there time was wasted on Tuas and Rivas, but do you equate that level of crappy gear to Targas and Kilowatts? In a relative sense the Targa/Kilowatt/T2 combo is what passes for light and neutral these days. But they aren't really that puny in the grand scheme of where things have come from. And I think that is the essence of why I would rather start folks on that type of gear.

FWIW, I don't really tele at all. I got some light nordic BC stuff (Rotte SuperTeles, Karhu Guides), and have used the newer stuff on demos, but I suck. I am an alpine/AT skier and that is my area of expertise. So aside from clinical and logical knowledge of the tele products, I lack the practical experience. There are other tele skiers in the shop, but they are general noobs to shop work so they know their setup (or the two setups they've owned) but can't guide a customer through a decision and a purchase yet. In time we will grow them strong and smart salespeople. But they lack this perspective that you all are helping to provide. So continued gracias.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Buckles? Hell no. I started on Snowpines. There were no such things as buckles on tele boots when I started teleing.

IME, begining tele skiers have the steepest learning curve with a softer bellowed boot (e.g., old T-2, SynerG) and a fairly active binding (e.g., HH in #3 or #4). That combo lets the novice feel the back foot how and where it belongs, i.e., flexed, loaded and close to the ski deck.

I skied T1's for years but I never liked them because the bellows are too stiff. IME, T1's on passive binders suck for novices because they will tend to ski the rear ski with their tippy toes and thus develop bad habits.

Disclaimer: I love teleing on light gear on Nordic terrain but I think big heavy tele gear is stupid. I switched to AT for alpine terrain several years ago and dropped gear weight and gained control. I now tele only on light gear (T3, Switchbacks) on rolling Nordic terrain. My rule: Nordic gear for Nordic terrain. Alpine gear for alpine terrain.

This is good analysis Steve. You mention a "steep learning curve". Does that mean hardest to learn, or fastest to pick up? I think of a steep learning curve meaning hard to pick up, but you seem to connote it positively. Both the sample options you mentioned paired opposite style components (soft boot, active binding; stiffer boot, neutral binding). What about in like pairings (stiff boot, active binding; soft boot, neutral binding) cause I think that is the heart of the debate that spurned this thread.

I started tele in 1981 on 215 Phoenix Torsion Comps, and lace up floppy leathers. It was a good way to learn the basics, which a lot of fakeamarkers don't have. Other than that, bigger boots were a godsend. By bigger I meant Merrill Supercomps and the same boot from Arco, both soft by todays standards. I would say a T2 size plastic boot and a 80-90mm ski would be good for learning, but any solid alpiner will outgrow them. It is hard to assess a person in the shop. A lot of people will never get good, and a fat powder ski and big boots will be lost on them.

Now I am with XXXer in that tele skiing is stupid, but at one time I was a fanatic, and really good. My advice would be to steer those hippies towards the alpine and AT gear

Originally Posted by Jethro

Now I am with XXXer in that tele skiing is stupid, but at one time I was a fanatic, and really good. My advice would be to steer those hippies towards the alpine and AT gear

Here here. But the customer is always right, and we sell a lot (as in volume and options, not necessarily $$) of tele gear. And here in the rolling hills of the N'east tele noodlers still have a haven. But I agree, at some point the weed has got to wear off.

I learned on Ener-G's and BD 01's, and really liked the beefyness having come from a very fast and aggressive alpine background. I am skinny and tall, and had no trouble flexing the bellows and weighting the ball of the foot. I was always wanting more power out of the setup and would keep cranking the tension on the binders until I finally got ahold of a pair of HammerHeads (as a sweet raffle prize!) and skied those at level 5 thereafter. Skis ranged from AK Launchers and Mojo90's at first, to SuperMojos (103's), Megawatts, and ON3P BillyGoats now. Fave was the 103's. Skied two solid seasons tele mostly.

All that being said, I think I tele'd maybe twice last season out of maybe 90 days. I realized that I was just wanting to be able to go as fast as I could on alpine gear and couldn't quite. It's fun with the girlfriend and I still love the feeling of the turn, but it doesn't quite hold my attention. I'll give the BG's another shot this year though.

Hope that was helpful.

For someone who is coming from skiing fixed heal IMO big boots, releasable bindings and the same ski as you would put them on for a fixed heel setup maybe trending towards the shorter size for their weight

i think some people who are coming from the xc background "get it" taking to big boots/gear and some will always be tentative and for them maybe light gear is where its at or maybe they will suck on anything ?

Originally Posted by rangerjake

My own opinion is that anyone who has tele'd for more than 7 years likely started on a 3 buckle boot, a neutral binding, and a narrower ski. As their skill progressed, their gear progressed. So if at all possible (keeping component matching as highest priority) having new skiers follow that progression, will allow them the most room to grow. Note that I am mostly considering folks who have/are making a switch from alpine to tele, not noob skiers all together.

I too wish I could reclaim the years of pulling laces tighter on the cow-skin boots (tighten 'em for the downhill for control!) and shitty riva & superloops. I came from a nordic background and have only experienced locking the heels a couple of times - but the biggest part of "feeling" the turn and becoming centered in the rear ski was active bindings (HH), speed and sidecut.

that said, offering solid advice ("get a lesson / take a clinic, fool!"), choices of boot types and no lame binders seems essential. Most will still poodle their rear leg no matter the equipment as they learn and rag doll anything off piste if they don't have solid alpine skills.

Lemme chime in with my two cents.

I am mostly an alpine skier, but I'm okay on my tele gear. I have some background teaching people how to do it (frightening, I know, considering how much better I am alpine).

I think it depends on the person. For someone who is a really strong, probably physically large, alpine skier (all terrain, all conditions, at mach chicken, etc.), a stiff boot and really active setup is the way to go. For someone who is a modestly accomplished alpine skier but decides nordic is the direction they want to go with the sport, a softer and less demanding setup is probably better.

On anything remotely burly, I tend to go alpine, but I enjoy fucking around in a sort of geek way with my tele form when the snow is lousy. Plus touring in mellow terrain. And I learned on modernish gear. I think my first setup was bumblebee T1s that didn't fit right, with skinny K2 Anti Pistes and Super Loops or something. Yes, it made no sense, but it was dirt cheap at the ski swap and provided a gateway to jerking off tele style on shitty snow days.

I think NTN gives you the opportunity to start with more advanced gear.

The bindings have a lot of torsional stiffness so it's easier to get your skis on edge. In addition the stiffness is in the binding, not in the bellows, so with a boot like the Scarpa tx or tx pro you'll avoid skiing the back ski on your tippy toes.

However, the boots give you the support and leverage of other 4-buckle teleboots, and combined with the torsional stiffness NTN allows you to learn on bigger board.

I learned 5 years ago with no alpine or snowboard background.

Stiff bellows with wimpy bindings = bad (tippy toe and spread stance for beginners)
Soft bellows with active bindings = good (helps develop a tighter stance and gives feedback to the skier)

If I were recommending a beginner setup today I would suggest NTN without hesitation partly because the edge control is better and givees good feedback to the user, but also the lateral release and lack of heelpiece faff is a bonus. I'd suggest orange TX boots or possibly Tx Pros if skis were wider. I would target ~85mm skis for groomers.

The two suggestions for NTN as a starter tele setup are interesting to me. In previous years (before the boot companies softened the bellows up a bit) I would call it unthinkable as it would take more aggression and weight to flex the boot and binding together. But as the bellows have become more reasonable I can see how it can be viewed as a pretty nice combo of features. Releaseablility and free pivot included.

I also hear a lot of support for a softer boot/bellow with a bit of a more active binding. So one is not getting resistance from the boot, but from the binding. This seems to make some logical sense to me, and I think pairings of T2s and Syner-Gs with a hammerhead/bombshell would be a nice option. The activity control is a big advantage there so the skier can feel where they want their binding to be.

Originally Posted by rangerjake

Here here. But the customer is always right, and we sell a lot (as in volume and options, not necessarily $$) of tele gear. And here in the rolling hills of the N'east tele noodlers still have a haven. But I agree, at some point the weed has got to wear off.

I should temper my go big or go home assertion with the caveat that I have never skied back east & I don't know where you are flogging ski gear, possibly light gear may make sense for walking around in the woods, T-race and pontoons might be overkill for a small local hill with a rope tow but if you are flogging gear to people who wana ski at a more substantial area where all the alpiners are hanging out go big ... or get more $$$ selling them bigger gear later

I do still own the floppy purple t3's and rivas which we might take out early season to walk around and flail a few low angle turns in the high alpine but only cuz we don't wana wreck our AT gear

What I found most helpful personally was a tall, relatively soft boot with a soft bellows paired with HHs. Taller cuff gives more control, softer bellows allows more feel, great combination for me. The HHs helped train my muscle memory as to where my back foot should be in relation to my body. The father of the HH used to ski them with Excursions, as the HHs give so much additional control.

Originally Posted by rangerjake

I can understand folks who say there time was wasted on Tuas and Rivas, but do you equate that level of crappy gear to Targas and Kilowatts?

Targas are floppy bindings, no more active than Riva II's. I didn't say my years on leather boots and old bindings was wasted. I came from a Nordic background and Snowpines on cable bindings was a big step up in control for me.

Originally Posted by rangerjake

You mention a "steep learning curve". Does that mean hardest to learn, or fastest to pick up?

Soft bellows and active binding = quicker and easier to learn, i.a., steeper means getting high on the learning curve more quickly. That's the classic definition. Why people twisted the definition upside down is beyond me.

hopelessly and gritter are agreeing with me re softish bellows and active bindings as the best combo for a beginner. BTW, BD O2 skis sorta like like BD #3.

Whenever someone talks about getting into tele, I feel compelled to offer my views from a tourist's perspective, i.e. rave for light flexible tele gear in the Nordic tradition and rant against big heavy stiff tele boots and bindings which weigh 2X the lightest Dynafit setup (which offers far more control and better touring).

Tele evolved as a Nordic technique for Nordic terrain on light flexible Nordic gear. The tele turn remains an essential technique on real Nordic gear.

NTN is its own species. NTN is not Nordic gear. NTN is closer to heavy stiff alpine gear w/o a heel binding, a barely flexible bellows and a super active (and very heavy and mechanically complex) binding which is necessary to promote flexing of the barely flexible bellows. I don't begrudge someone for skiing NTN in lift areas but NTN is an absurd choice for touring.

The threshold question for any tele noobie is: Why do I want to learn to tele? When I started teleing, there was only one answer: "So I can tour on light gear." Today there are two answers: (a) I want ski lift areas in heavy stiff gear for whatever reason (i.e., posing, athletic challenge) and, if I want to tour I'm sufficiently strong, young and stupid to schlep the absurdly heavy and heavy clunky stuff on a few tours; or (b) I want to learn a Nordic turn technique for use on light Nordic gear which I will eventually use for touring. If the answer is (a) then, yeah, NTN or HH and stiff boots is fine for lift areas (but, gawd, get some Dynafits for touring on alpine terrain!). If the answer is (b), then get T3s, T4s, Excursions or old 2-buckle T2s (equivalent to today's T3's and available used) and a light binding (e.g., Voile Switchback), although it makes some sense for the (b) skier to learn on HH or O2s.

I'll be getting Voile Switchback X2 to put on a waxless rig for Nordic terrain. Word is that it's as active as a HH #2-1/2, which should be just right for my T3s.