Thread: Wasatch Conditions 11-12

Just fount the ap to translate Kowboy/skifishbum to english. Heres the deal:

We're messing with different avalanche dragons this year & staying alive in the Wasatch is tougher. We are inviting mags to join us at Black Diamond on Thurs Feb 9, 7 pm

Kowboy's going to explain how a thin snowpack w/ hard slabs & PWLs change the game, Grom's going to show control results that pucker us, and StraightChuter is going to talk about how to ski steep & grow old by making smart decisions in strange terrain and snowpack. After, we chat, answer questions, argue, share a beer, whatever.

Thurs night is free. On snow is at the Bird, Mon 2/13. Cost is $85 (includes lifts) Surface Skis, Black Diamond, and Snowbird are on board. Online sign up will be up on the site by monday. Who is in?

^^ How much if you don't need a pass?

$35 if you already have a pass

Originally Posted by brooks_mcclintock

not that my wellness pertains to wasnatch conditions, but i had a accident at b town. ate some wood! just wanted to say hats off to the patrol team up there. and always wear a helmet if you plan riding w/in 10 yds of any tree - lone or in a grove they are still there, and your head isnt stronger than the tree.

"its my season ender, but not my life ender"
i feel very fortunate and definitely makes me realize why i dont need to charge at mach speeds anymore

hang in there buddy, I ate wood Winter 08, be glad you're breathing. I was stoked to have a just a clean femur break. That incident definitely slowed my ass down in the trees though.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using TGR Forums

Would have thought snowbird would give you guys a better deal...

I am interested and will most likely participate in the field day on Saturday. Need skins? Or just beacon shovel probe? How long of a day?

I'm posting this up especially for SFB:

^^^classic overstoker!

SFB's tirade's aside....she is pretty cute. wonder what she looks like with only the flat brim, pigtails, and her beacon on?

Originally Posted by fuac

Who is in?

I'm definitely in.

Originally Posted by sfotex

I'm posting this up especially for SFB:

I could listen to her talk ski shit all day! Oh lordie!

Originally Posted by Mark H

I also put this in the "Death Sucks" thread:

I was one of the guys who toured with Alecs on Argenta just two days before his death. I will share parts of my conversation with him and my insight to his fatal decision.

When I met up with Alecs and his friends they had already decided to ski Argenta. He had hit it the previous day and said it felt stable. I didn't like the idea and suggested we do some tree lines elsewhere. But their minds were made up so I said I'd just go to the base of the headwall with them and dig a pit. I really was curious about how the weak layer was adjusting to the big slab. Alecs was very surprised that I was opposed to skiing the headwall. He kept saying that it felt really stable up there and that somehow it was an exception to the generally weak snowpack. I said I didnt care how it felt to him, the bottom line is there is a persistent weak layer in the snowpack. I began to feel a little disturbed by how he seemed to replace his snow science knowledge with his "intuition". He had taken a very in depth, full semester avy course at the U (essentially a level 2) and knew damn well the unpredictable nature of persistent weak layers. As we got higher up he pointed at the west couloir of Argenta and acknowledged that would be too dangerous to ski. We also discussed the west face of Kessler and how a friend was caught in a hard slab there in similar conditions just two years ago (it turned out Alecs got caught very near where this friend was caught. Luckily this friend grabbed a tree in time or he would have likely been carried full track like Alecs). As we approached the headwall I noticed he began to skin right up the middle of one of the slide paths. This wasn't necessary because there were some safer trees to the side. I told him this but he didn't seem to really care. In his mind, the headwall was a green light. As we were digging a pit at the base of the headwall he asked me if I wanted to ski Tanners on Saturday (the day he got caught) I replied "Not a chance in hell!!! I can't believe I'm even here right now!" I then told him about some of the slides that had been happening on southerly terrain due to facets.

We did an ECT and typical for deep slabs there was no significant result. This was just more confirmation for Alecs so he and his 3 friends began skinning the headwall. He asked "You coming Mark?". In that moment some bullshit excuses began running through my mind: "well the slab is pretty stiff and there's a lot of trees here for anchors and the skinner is already in and........" So I gave in and against all my best judgement began following them up the Argenta headwall with deep slab instability. Ridiculous. One of the guys who was new to touring said "well thankfully they already skied this yesterday so that means it's safe right?" I replied "No it doesn't mean anything".

As the group was transitioning on the ridge I skied down a few feet next to a tree and triggered a 20 ft crack. I mentioned this to Alecs but he didn't seem very interested. Then I dug down and found it to be much more hollow than at the base. I also mentioned this to the group but again it didn't generate much interest.

It was great skiing on the headwall but honestly I didn't really enjoy it cause all I could feel was fear and shame for being there. I knew I had failed myself and did not set a good example for Alecs. It didn't matter that we got away with it, we were still wrong. This helped set the stage for Saturday.

While at work on Saturday I got two worried messages from friends asking if I was ok cause there had been a death on Kessler. I remembered from the avy forecast that morning Drew stated it would be the exact type of day that was prime for an accident: a sunny Saturday with plenty of pow and concealed danger to catch somebody. I was then told Alecs wasn't answering his phone and that it was a young snowboarder who was caught and carried into Mineral. I burst into tears. I thought about what could lead Alecs to get caught in an area that just two days prior he acknowledged as being too dangerous. Late last season the snowpack was relatively stable and he was able to ski that line and others near it numerous times, right after big storms, without incident. When he stood on that peak, perhaps all the good memories came back and clouded his judgement. No doubt, he fell into a familiarity trap. I am told by one of the investigators that the group acknowledged the danger that day and decided they would head to safer terrain in Mineral. So in Alecs's mind, if they could just get down the west couloir safely they would be ok. The other guys didn't know what they were getting into because from the top it just looks like a moderate tree run. Perhaps he figured if he did get caught he could possibly grab onto a tree like our friend did there two years ago. Whatever the excuses, the risk seemed acceptable and he set off down the west couloir like he had done so many times before. Where there is great passion there is often great error.

If I had held my ground and refused to ski the headwall that day would it have influenced Alecs to choose a different route on Saturday? In a sense, it doesn't matter anymore because it's in the past. But in another sense, it does matter because I hope that question will forever remind me to stick with what I know is right, regardless of the consequences.

Wow Mark. So sad to read this. You know I once heard a wise old guy tell me that the only question that is unhealthy to ask yourself is "What if?", why? because you'll never have the answer. Alecs was a well educated experienced backcountry skier. He knew his the risks and definitely knew the dangers of the sport. Don't hold yourself responsible for this. You will be in our thoughts/prayers bro.

I am in on the BD talk-ski - and lookie at the snowpack!

TheDon, I appreciate what you've said. I really don't hold myself responsible for Alecs' decision. I'm glad I shared that story because it will help me remember all the red flags I saw in his behavior and my own. His partners told me he was using the ECT results from Thursday to justify his decision on Saturday. He clearly had forgotten the fact that pit tests should never be used as evidence that a slope is safe (not to mention the test was done on a different day, aspect, and elevation). He first suggested hitting the west couloir of Argenta but his partners declined because they could clearly see it was a steep slide path. I'm confident that west-north west aspects in general were, and still are, more dangerous because the slab is thinner (weaker bridge) due to wind scouring. Just before he took off down the west couloir one of his partners warned him to be cautious of open areas. Sure enough, the instant he rode out of the trees he triggered the slide.

I recently experimented with the propagation saw test and have found it to be much more effective at demonstrating deep slab instability than the ECT. This test is commonly used in BC and other areas that typically have deep slab problems. Of course, sticking a pole in the snow is often all that's really necessary to know there's a problem but this test could be a great way to scare an over zealous partner. The sound of the column collapsing and sight of it sliding out is always impressive.

Here's a video of my friend Trent doing this test: http://vimeo.com/m/36119535

That IMO is a healthy perspective. This year has been a real learning year, with all these slides. Thanks for sharing, that's a great video.

The sign up for the field day, Monday Feb 13, is up. You don't have to sign up for the evening sesh, just show up. Either might fill to capacity and leave some late comers out.

Deal me in for the bd talk...if I can get the 13th off I'll come play.

Originally Posted by Mark H

Of course, sticking a pole in the snow is all that's really necessary to know there's a problem

^^ says a lot i think. thanks fuac. see you for talk for sure.

I will definitely be at the night session. Thanks FUAC, and everyone involved for helping put this on!

Originally Posted by getoutside

^^ says a lot i think.

I should say: sticking your pole through the snow is *often* all that's needed to know there is a problem - not always. I understand small facets and surface hoar can be undetectable unless there is careful analysis in a pit. Right now it's still pretty obvious when your pole breaks through the slab to the sugary void beneath.

+++vibes++ for Gary. I'm sorry to hear that he got hurt I hope he's able to get back out there in the spring.

Skiing was decent today in the twin lakes area, albeit pretty tracked out. There were ALOT of people out there today.

Originally Posted by Mark H

I should say: sticking your pole through the snow is *often* all that's needed to know there is a problem - not always. I understand small facets and surface hoar can be undetectable unless there is careful analysis in a pit. Right now it's still pretty obvious when your pole breaks through the slab to the sugary void beneath.

comprende. really sorry for your loss and thanks for telling your story mh. will raise a pint in alecs name more than once for certain.

Originally Posted by FUAC

The Wasatch Avy Dragons are bigger & meaner this year - come learn some new skills. No Meadow Skippers.

Hopefully the Avalanche Dragon will forgive UAC for making fun of Meadow Skipping in a season where the best decision making involves staying off the steep stuff.

Originally Posted by sfotex

Gary went down hard on Mount Olympus today. He's going to need some serious vibes + was flying in a Wilderness Area, so fines on top of that. He doen't post here a ton, but he's a great guy and full of stoke and energy. (I hope I'm going as strong as he is at 43!)

Attachment 109553

Thats shitty, sorry to hear that. I've gotten pretty stoked on life watching some of his videos. Hope hes back at it soon.

Hopefully the Avalanche Dragon will forgive UAC for making fun of Meadow Skipping in a season where the best decision making involves staying off the steep stuff.

After studying a little more about the current snowpack, I think we may have some meadow skipper converts

Looks like they lost a snowmobiler in Morgan county yesterday, The dragons are still out there and hungry. Be carefull.

Originally Posted by sfotex

Gary went down hard on Mount Olympus today. He's going to need some serious vibes + was flying in a Wilderness Area, so fines on top of that. He doen't post here a ton, but he's a great guy and full of stoke and energy. (I hope I'm going as strong as he is at 43!)

Attachment 109553

You can get fined for flying a non motorized sail over wilderness?



43 ain't old!