WUWT - Tahoeans are stoked on expansion, Wasatchers Angry.

[nbt]

I'm not a fan of all expansion in the Wasatch. I used to ski from PC to Alta and back every week in High School when I had a pass at both. Just a few easy skins between. Luckily Brighton was slack on checking passes too. 2 lifts (already planned) would connect every resort in the Wasatch: The Canyons gondola to Brighton and the Solitude into Silver Fork lift. With Alta planning the Flagstaff lift it's really all connected.

Tahoans seem really stoked with Squaw-Alpine connection. Why are the Utahns angry about expansion plans here? Is it just the legacy of the Crusty Old Wasatch Skiers? It seems like there is a similar amount of BC terrain around each place but I guess the Wasatch is more limited overall compared to the Sierra's. Both are equally limited in easy access stuff.

It's strange the Squaw thread is "Dreams come true" and the Utah thread is "Wasatch's worst enemy". Seems like Utah needs to lose a little crustiness.

[Buster Highmen]

It seems like that's comparing apples and orange.

The (edit) Cottonwood Canyons/PC/DV (/edit) Wasatch is saturated with lifts. With UT laws regarding uphill travel "within bounds", that network of lifts all but eclipses touring.

The Sierras are a lot bigger range with much less overall development density. Skiing between AM and SV, while potentially homogenizing the different vibes, won't impact bc skiing that much around Tahoe.

[powdork]

the talisker situation is very different. at this point in tahoe it is just two resorts now operating under the same umbrella. i'm sure they will connect eventually, but when they do it will likely mean more skiable inbounds terrain without affecting the bc at all. the utah situation is completely different.

logistically, the squalpenwolf thing makes a lot of sense compared to the talisker thing.

[brutah]

2 lifts (already planned) would connect every resort in the Wasatch: The Canyons gondola to Brighton and the Solitude into Silver Fork lift. With Alta planning the Flagstaff lift it's really all connected.

Alta will put a lift up grizzly first before flagstaff. I hear soli has plans for a lift up to twin lakes pass as well (though i've only heard rumors on this one) and for right now the silver fork lift is off the tables having lost forest service approval last year.

the infrastructure is mostly already there. the interconnect is coming; hearing the talk, the motivation and the dollar signs in the GM's eyes makes me certain that it will happen. the GMs and ski utah are frothing at the mouth to do this and I think their foresight is limited and the connection will cost some resorts in the wasatch greatly. lots of money comes from food sales, ski lessons, etc, and with the resorts interconnected a ski area won't have a monopoly on the choices for food etc.

the goal isn't to prevent the interconnect from happening but to limit the impact and i think that starts by limiting the park city developers hand in the matters. Talisker and the canyons has already proven that they are environmentally irresponsible, are not concerned about the skiing experience and lack the foresight to actually put lifts that will enhance the skiing experience instead of providing access to more ski in/ski out homes. they announced the tram proposal because the canyons is likely to not be in the heart of the interconnect and i think they fear that their corner won't be visited too much. I actually think the interconnect will hurt the PC resorts the most, I mean if its all interconnect, who really wants to ski the canyons and PCMR??? even if you start in PC, you'll probably end up in big or little for lunch, cutting PC out of food sales and food sales will be huge income once they're all interconnected because lift ticket sales will most likely be split amongst all the resorts........

the interconnect is coming within the next ten years that is for sure. not so sure, how it will look or work out, but i'm sure a few years after its in place, some resorts won't be stoked.

[#######]

The Utah story has more to do with the use of PUBLIC LAND for private enterprise and the current law that bans uphill traffic inside resort boundaries.

Then there is the issue of water quality: Big Cottonwood Canyon is a watershed.

Those are the issues, this is not a "I got mine, FUCK YOU! Fuck Expansion!" attitude.

[Buster Highmen]

Alta will put a lift up grizzly first before flagstaff..

Did Onno tell you that?

[brutah]

not onno himself, but that's the talk within the ranks at alta. it makes more sense to expand into grizzly first before flagstaff.
though i hear they don't have the funds to make it happen right now and alta likes to stay in the black and not dip into the red.

[Slaag Master]

i love the wasatch!

[Buster Highmen]

Hmmm.
The represented rationale for the Flagstaff lift was slide control for the road. It seems that would be higher priority than GG access.

But hey, what does Crepescule For Nellie natter vector blingle spats.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Don't ask, Ruby, My Dear.

[powski3]

How the hell is the Squaw/Alpine pass only 440 bucks (per adventurejournal)??? I want my $500 Altabird.

[brutah]

How the hell is the Squaw/Alpine pass only 440 bucks (per adventurejournal)??? I want my $500 Altabird.

me too!!! i can't even afford a seasons pass to ONE ski area in utah!!!

i know the argument/reasoning behind colorado's cheap passes, what's the tahoe argument?

[Johnny Deep]

Alta will put a lift up grizzly first before flagstaff. I hear soli has plans for a lift up to twin lakes pass as well (though i've only heard rumors on this one) and for right now the silver fork lift is off the tables having lost forest service approval last year.

the infrastructure is mostly already there. the interconnect is coming; hearing the talk, the motivation and the dollar signs in the GM's eyes makes me certain that it will happen. the GMs and ski utah are frothing at the mouth to do this and I think their foresight is limited and the connection will cost some resorts in the wasatch greatly. lots of money comes from food sales, ski lessons, etc, and with the resorts interconnected a ski area won't have a monopoly on the choices for food etc.

the goal isn't to prevent the interconnect from happening but to limit the impact and i think that starts by limiting the park city developers hand in the matters. Talisker and the canyons has already proven that they are environmentally irresponsible, are not concerned about the skiing experience and lack the foresight to actually put lifts that will enhance the skiing experience instead of providing access to more ski in/ski out homes. they announced the tram proposal because the canyons is likely to not be in the heart of the interconnect and i think they fear that their corner won't be visited too much. I actually think the interconnect will hurt the PC resorts the most, I mean if its all interconnect, who really wants to ski the canyons and PCMR??? even if you start in PC, you'll probably end up in big or little for lunch, cutting PC out of food sales and food sales will be huge income once they're all interconnected because lift ticket sales will most likely be split amongst all the resorts........

the interconnect is coming within the next ten years that is for sure. not so sure, how it will look or work out, but i'm sure a few years after its in place, some resorts won't be stoked.

I think the USFS granted them approval for the Sol-Bright lift they never constrcuted about ten years ago.

[Johnny Deep]

Did Onno tell you that?

I beleive there is a letter of intent out to the USFS. So basically, yes.

[Buster Highmen]

I beleive there is a letter of intent out to the USFS. So basically, yes.

The same for the Flagstaff lift though.

Does the letter actually specify the order in which these are to be built? GG seems kind of stupid since it's so easy to access from Catherines.

[Johnny Deep]

The Grizzly Lift is totally on private property (my understanding) making the go a given at some point. Alta has also been doing Cat Skiing operations in the same area for about 10 years, so it's already being impacted by mechanical means. Flagstaff has to wait on Wilderness designation and USFS/public comment input, so it's a wait and see. I think most are waiting to see how far the flood gates open for Snowbird. If that one goes without much of fight, then look out.

[brutah]

The Grizzly Lift is totally on private property (my understanding) making the go a given at some point. Alta has also been doing Cat Skiing operations in the same area for about 10 years, so it's already being impacted by mechanical means. Flagstaff has to wait on Wilderness designation and USFS/public comment input, so it's a wait and see. I think most are waiting to see how far the flood gates open for Snowbird. If that one goes without much of fight, then look out.

this is all correct........

i hear the grizzly lift will probably go in next summer. alta already owns that land (grizzly gulch) and i thought they owned the south face of flagstaff too.

the rest of it is waiting on snowbird's expansion into mary ellen gulch and whether or not the white/red/maybird/hogum forks get wilderness designation. it looks like snowbird gets its expansion, the environmentalists get their wilderness and then the flood gates open for the rest of em......

[Johnny Deep]

They do have property on Flag, but only a quiltwork. The proposed Widlerness extention messes with some of it, like how far up they can go.

Isn't Red, Maybird and Hogum already wilderness? I was understanding that most of the new expansion will occur in BCC/upper Millcreek.

[Buster Highmen]

Aside from all this threadrift, I'd say the Tahoe expansion and the Cottonwoods expansions are really, really different based on user density as well as development density.

It's not just a function of Wasatch crustiness.

[skifishbum]

WASATCH DRAMA BITCHES UNTITE FOR THE SAKE OF STOKE

[brutah]

They do have property on Flag, but only a quiltwork. The proposed Widlerness extention messes with some of it, like how far up they can go.

Isn't Red, Maybird and Hogum already wilderness? I was understanding that most of the new expansion will occur in BCC/upper Millcreek.

I've just been hearing talks of protecting white pine all summer, so I just lumped all those forks in there in my on mind. but you are correct that red pine, maybird and hogum are all part of the lone peak wilderness area. i'm an idiot........


the wilderness proposal info is here:

http://saveourcanyons.org/campaigns/...rness_campaign

http://saveourcanyons.org/files/camp...WWPAmap_LG.pdf

[beaterdit]

How the hell is the Squaw/Alpine pass only 440 bucks (per adventurejournal)??? I want my $500 Altabird.

me too!!! i can't even afford a seasons pass to ONE ski area in utah!!!

i know the argument/reasoning behind colorado's cheap passes, what's the tahoe argument?

Actually this would be really bad for the skiing at the resorts. I don't get up to Alta much anymore but I know Snowbird got a lot more crowded when they implemented the 'under 25' pass. Maybe a dual pass deal would help spread it out a little but we don't need any more people skiing LCC resorts IMO. I'd say raise pass prices if anything. I know that's economic discrimination but, well, but nothing, it's too crowded in LCC.

For the record I can barely afford afford a Bird pass as it is as well.

I think the Wasatch interconnect will be bad for the skiing too. Not necessarily ON the runs but in terms of lift capacity if everyone filters into the cottonwoods from the 'back'. It might help alleviate the traffic and parking issue a bit though.

As far as Squalpine goes, I don't really ski there enough to have a very strong opinion but in the few pow days I've had at each, Squaw was WAY more crowded than Alpine so that'll likely get worse. Conversely though, if it is too crowded at Squaw you can just bug out to Alpine. Likewise when Squaw gets skied out. Can't imagine the diehard Alpine folks are too stoked about it because it'll bring the Squawliwood scene there and inevitably their mountain will get skied out faster.

[skifishbum]

buy american bro
or give your $$$ to Onno & Bassturd
they're amuricans