Sleeping bag quiver

[GeezerSteve]

Anybody getting random drafts with a quilt system is doing it wrong, e.g., poor strapping system and/or quilt that is too narrow. You should have no drafts with a sleeping quilt of a proper width and with a proper strap system. (This assumes that the quilt has a foot box.) Unfortunately, most quilts do not come with a proper strapping system -- see Katabatic Gear strapping system re what works -- but it's pretty easy to DIY if you do your research and can use a sewing machine. The key is to have quilt edges connect to straps on top of the sleeping pad so that the quilt edges tuck under your body. For reasons I can't figure most quilt makers do not do that.

EE's strapping system utterly sucks and one of the two EE quilts I've seen was too narrow for its owner. If in doubt, order the wider quilt and plan to make DIY straps if you buy EE. Otherwise, EE is a nice product -- just be certain to order a wide enough quilt and plan to make your own strapping system.

ETA: Since my original contributions to this thread I have 60+ nights in a sleeping quilt. First few nights were drafty, then I figured out a DIY strapping system that eliminated all drafts. I have not yet converted my winter bag (FF -10F) to a quilt, but I plan to do so.

[auvgeek]

Anybody getting random drafts with a quilt system is doing it wrong, e.g., poor strapping system and/or quilt that is too narrow. You should have no drafts with a sleeping quilt of a proper width and with a proper strap system. (This assumes that the quilt has a foot box.) Unfortunately, most quilts do not come with a proper strapping system -- see Katabatic Gear strapping system re what works -- but it's pretty easy to DIY if you do your research and can use a sewing machine. The key is to have quilt edges connect to straps on top of the sleeping pad so that the quilt edges tuck under your body. For reasons I can't figure most quilt makers do not do that.

Good stuff here! I agree—the EE strap system sucks. I do like their quilts though, especially for the price.

But whoever decides to make a sub-0 F quilt in a PTFE fabric will get my money next.

[Lindahl]

Eliminating drafts is the ideal, but they still happen even with a 'perfect' system. The neck hole being the big one. So is shifting around wrong in the middle of the night. So easy to accidentally let these random drafts in, even with a 'bomber' system. With Zpacks as an option for a zip bag, weight isn't a factor. These are my experiences after trying quilts for a while in teens to low 20s.

[GeezerSteve]

The neck hole being the big one.

That's kinda like saying that a mummy bag is inherently drafty because warm air can leak out the face hole. A sleeping quilt of a proper width with a proper strapping system (a rare thing, unfortunately) is as draft-free as a hoodless traditional sleeping bag.

Eliminating drafts is the ideal, but they still happen even with a 'perfect' system.

My system has zero side drafts. See above re neck hole, which is not an issue if you use an elastic draw cord.

With Zpacks as an option for a zip bag, weight isn't a factor. These are my experiences after trying quilts for a while in teens to low 20s.

Zipper always adds weight vs. a no-zipper quilt. FF and EE are also marketing "quilts" with zippers.

I'm not suggesting that sleeping quilts are for everyone because some people will always prefer a hood, but it's too bad that people are writing off quilts because manufacturers haven't figured out a no-leak strapping system, which isn't that difficult. Anyone who is interested in improving their quilts via DIY modding, feel free to PM me.

[auvgeek]

Eliminating drafts is the ideal, but they still happen even with a 'perfect' system. The neck hole being the big one. So is shifting around wrong in the middle of the night. So easy to accidentally let these random drafts in, even with a 'bomber' system. With Zpacks as an option for a zip bag, weight isn't a factor. These are my experiences after trying quilts for a while in teens to low 20s.

You've tried it with a VBL that cinches at the neck?

[Lindahl]

Zipper always adds weight vs. a no-zipper quilt. FF and EE are also marketing "quilts" with zippers.

The Zpacks zipper weighs 0.5oz. And there isn't a single quilt on the market that weighs less for the temp ranges. Well worth it to get rid of the bellowing dead air space drafting of quilts, in my opinion.

You've tried it with a VBL that cinches at the neck?

Haven't been able to sleep well in a VBL. Maybe that works? Still, the cold air gets in, even if it doesn't directly hit your skin?

[GeezerSteve]

Temp ratings are whatever the manufacturer wants them to be. A 3/.4 length #3 zipper -- lightest possible for the use -- weighs about 0.8 oz., so somebody is making up shit. #3 zipper is very fragile, will break. Add that honest 0.8 oz. in down for more warmth. There are no free lunches.

Anyway, there seems to be a market for 'tweener quilts with zippers which makes no sense to me (but that's because I figured out a DIY draft-free strap system). A zipped up bag brings back in the inherent major weakness of a traditional bag: sleeping on top of squished down, which has no insulating value is is nothing more than dead weight. Again, there are no free lunches.

A proper quilt strap system mocks the other iteration of the pad-as-bottom-insulation design is the pad sleeve, e.g., Big Agnes, which solve the squished-down-as-dead-weight problem of traditional bags, weigh significantly more than strapped quilts. But PS designs are draft-free even for those who don't get the proper quilt strap system thing (i.e., nearly everybody, it seems). I have a heavily modified eVent-shelled FF Great Auk (discontinued), FF's only foray into a pad-sleeve design, stock design poorly executed thus requiring significant modding to make it work.

Still, the cold air gets in

No, there's no, i.e., zero drafting with a proper width quilt and proper strap system, i.e., attachment point is on the top of the sleeping pad, tucked under the body. See above. EE, Nunatak and most other quilt manufacturers do it wrong (unless the user is a 100% back sleeper). EE flimsy POS elastic straps are the worst. If that's what you've been using, it's no surprise that your quilt is drafty.

Following up auvgeek: VBL adds at least 10F, often 20F, very efficient way to add warmth for little weight, but only if you have the patience to learn how to use a VB, e.g., venting. A quilt could be made VB inside fabric, e.g., cuben fiber, for the most weight-efficient sleeping system ever, but it'll only work for those who have the VB knack. The obstacle with VB liners and VB garments becoming mainstream is that they, like proper quilt strapping, are thinking man's gear, and the consuming mob will lack the patience or acumen or time in the mountains to fully figure them out.

[auvgeek]

A quilt could be made VB inside fabric, e.g., cuben fiber, for the most weight-efficient sleeping system ever, but it'll only work for those who have the VB knack.

EE actually made these for a short while, but they were discontinued before I saved the money.

[rod9301]

Steve, do you have a photo of your strap system? I don't quite get it from your description.
Thanks

[Lindahl]

Anyway, there seems to be a market for 'tweener quilts with zippers which makes no sense to me (but that's because I figured out a DIY draft-free strap system). A zipped up bag brings back in the inherent major weakness of a traditional bag: sleeping on top of squished down, which has no insulating value is is nothing more than dead weight. Again, there are no free lunches.

A proper quilt strap system mocks the other iteration of the pad-as-bottom-insulation design is the pad sleeve, e.g., Big Agnes, which solve the squished-down-as-dead-weight problem of traditional bags, weigh significantly more than strapped quilts. But PS designs are draft-free even for those who don't get the proper quilt strap system thing (i.e., nearly everybody, it seems).

Drafts most often came for me when I turned in my bag and was unable to turn inside it (turn without the quilt turning). When you're half-asleep, the technique you can use to avoid this is much more difficult. It's shit I don't need to deal with when I'm in the middle of sleeping.

Even with technique dialed, these systems really only work well for full length pads. I ditched a full length pad long ago. Its hard to do a no-draft quilt system without a full length pad. You generally save more weight if you can sleep just fine on a ~48" pad, than you would, by saving 1-2oz on a quilt. Look it up... a Zpacks 20 degree bag is under 17oz. The girth of their bags is pretty damn close to most quilt manufacturers (56"). That's why they don't weigh much more than a quilt. The slim cut doesn't work for everyone though - but they have the larger sizes for that. Their large selection of sizes helps.

For me, the biggest drawback to a traditional sleeping bag is the fixed hood. A hoodless bag is the perfect solution to my needs.

I'd totally agree that quilts make more sense than your typical sleeping bags, but the ZPacks bags become real contenders because of the attention to detail in trimming weight and fine-tuning sizes. The MHW Speed 32 does a pretty good job too.

[bodywhomper]

i'm glad the quilt system is back in style. marmot used to make a really deluxe quilt system, twas synthetic semi-rectangular bags with zippers and foam mattresses, also with zippers. if memory serves right, you could connect as many mattresses as you wanted side by side with the zippers, creating a ridiculously wide mattress for all your kinky car camping needs.

[GeezerSteve]

A quilt with a footbox works fine with a 3/4 length pad.

Steve, do you have a photo of your strap system? I don't quite get it from your description.
Thanks

I will endeavor to post some pics and description. For now, check out these schematics from Katabatic Gear's site:

Strap attachments on top of pad, quilt edges tucked under body, preventing drafts and cold spots:


Pad attachments on side or underneath pad, creating drafts and cold spots:


Then imagine something worse than the second pic: Flimsy POS EE elastic straps that stretch when you roll, opening up huge draft channels. Again, except for the awful strap system, I like EE's products, good price, good stitching, well made. Easy enough to fix per a DIY strapping system.

[shafty85]

Following up auvgeek: VBL adds at least 10F, often 20F, very efficient way to add warmth for little weight, but only if you have the patience to learn how to use a VB, e.g., venting. A quilt could be made VB inside fabric, e.g., cuben fiber, for the most weight-efficient sleeping system ever, but it'll only work for those who have the VB knack. The obstacle with VB liners and VB garments becoming mainstream is that they, like proper quilt strapping, are thinking man's gear, and the consuming mob will lack the patience or acumen or time in the mountains to fully figure them out.

Probably got lost in the shuffle, but does anyone have any recommendations/techniques/etc, from yourself or anyone else who cares to chime in, for how to achieve said venting? Ordered a VBL with a new bag (still awaiting delivery) and was hoping to have some pre-conceived ideas of how to deal with this prior to taking it out.

[GeezerSteve]

FF VB liner is a good design for a traditional (mummy or rectangular) bag. It's silnylon, designed to button via snaps into loops standard on all FF mummy bags, which is really nice to avoid twisting the liner when rolling. It has 3/4 side zip for venting and is up/down symmetrical so it works with L or R side zipper. Top has an elastic drawstring and snap to create a snug neck hole. Condensation can form at the hole, but not a big problem with FF winter bags which have WP/B shell fabric "breathing tunnel."

With my quilt I've used the FF VBL with the zipper oriented to one side for venting, but it'd be nice to have vents on both sides and that'd be a relatively easy DIY project (silnylon). I've also slept in VB clothing many times, which is always an option.

I've been pondering making a DIY synthetic quilt with VB inside fabric, maybe cuben fiber.

[shafty85]

Looking at picking up a summer quilt - thinking the Katabatic Flex 40 or EE Revelation; I like the idea of being able to vent at my feet on hot summer nights, though I understand Big Steve's gripe with zippers. If this was to be a winter bag, I'd look at eliminating it, but already have a 3 season bag (WM alpinlite) and will look at a true winter bag later on. Is the additional weight 15.2oz (430g) for a size regular Flex 50 compared to the EE Revelation (10.6oz or 300g) and additional cost ($90US less for the EE, which is a lot of Canadian pesos) worth the improved strapping system? Anyone have any success improving the EE strapping system?

[auvgeek]

FWIW, I find the EE Revelation footbox zipper pretty annoying. Not sure the same is true of the Katabatic Flex, but I wouldn't buy another Revelation. Good idea in theory, and I do like having the footbox open when it's warm, but the zipper just annoys me when I'm sleeping with it closed. If I were to do it again, I'd probably just get a light Enigma (40 deg? 50 deg?), and if it's too hot for that, just forgo the quilt entirely.

YMMV and all that. Just my experience.

[GeezerSteve]

Could you rip out the zipper, sew a seam in lieu thereof but leave the draw string? That would result in a foot box that would not open wide, but would allow you to vent with the drawstring.

I have never wished I had anything other than a closed foot box on my quilt, but I don't recall using it to sleep in temps >50F.

Improving the EE strap system by replacing it with a top-of-pad attachment akin to Katabatic is easy if you have a sewing machine, get a set of fasteners that will work for your design and you have the knack. Back to Lindahl's gripes, if the you cannot roll inside the quilt without creating drafts, something is wrong: Either you've got poor strap system or the quilt is not wide enough for your body or both.

[ThreeRidges]

Enigma is great. With the right width, and in the summer/shoulder season, strap system is a non issue for me.

[shafty85]

Leaning more and more towards an EE Enigma, from reviews/research and what you all are saying. But, do the EE bags really take 10-12 weeks to ship? I mean, that's just a REALLY long time to wait for a bag, isn't it? Or am I crazy? Wouldn't mind being able to use it PRIOR to August...

[sgiachetti]

I have a 30 degree EE enigma in a wide and a 15 degree katabatic in a regular width. Both are excellent quilts, but I'd recommend going with a wide if you do decide on a quilt because of the mentioned drafts. I do occasionally get drafts in my katabatic, but it hasn't bothered me much in winter when I'm wearing down pants, booties and a parka. Speaking of which, if you do much cold weather camping, I would definitely recommend some ultralight down pants. I got some from borah gear with side zips that go to the waist, for use with ski boots, that only weigh 6 oz. They add a world of comfort around camp and they increase the warmth of any bag considerably. As for a sleeping bag/quilt quiver, I think a two bag/quilt system makes a lot of sense. A 0-15 degree bag or quilt for cold weather, and a 30 degree wide quilt for warmer weather or layering over the other bag in extreme cold.

[shafty85]

So, I think I have it figured out. A 40f Enigma with 900 down. That, combined with my WM alpinlite in winter, should get me through most conditions year round. 2 questions:
1- should I go with the 20 denier at the foot and head? I know Big Steve is a big proponent of having a fabric that is waterproof/water resistant at the head to reduce the affects of condensation from your breath on the insulation, but not sure how the 20 denier fabric compares to the 10 denier fabric and is worth the additional weight (1oz additional weight).
2- should I get a wide model so as to be able to layer with my alpinlite in the winter? Shoulder girth on the alpinlite is 63", I measure my shoulder girth at 51"-52" when lying down.

Anyone have any recommendations for either way, or experience with their widths?

[auvgeek]

My recommendation is to get the wide with 20 denier stripes (and waterproof down). For my winter bags, I go 20D everywhere, but that's probably overkill for such a light quilt.

The 900 fp is super expensive for the warmer models, but it's pretty cheap on the 40F so I understand the appeal. But you might consider 850 fp for the durability, but that's your call. Only adds half an oz and saves you $30. Maybe someone with more experience with down will chime in and comment on a real-world durability advantage with 850 over 900. I've always heard 850 is the sweet spot between weight and durability, but that may be wrong.

[GeezerSteve]

I know Big Steve is a big proponent of having a fabric that is waterproof/water resistant at the head to reduce the affects of condensation from your breath on the insulation

That's a minor issue with a quilt, which cinches at the neck in cold mode. I prefer (allegedly) WPB fabric shells on my sleeping bags and quilt because I usually camp in a 'mid in PNW mountain conditions. If I lived in the Rockies I might well have gone with stock fabric shell.

not sure how the 20 denier fabric compares to the 10 denier fabric and is worth the additional weight (1oz additional weight).

Not enough info. 10D and 20D refers to the thread fiber. There are various kinds of fabrics (with different qualities) made of 10D and 20D fibers. I recall reading a BPL thread where some people were talking about a 10D fabric that lacked permeability vs. a 20D fabric but EE suggests that its 10D is more permeable. My bud has an EE quilt with 10D fabric. I'd likely go 20D outside for the better abrasion resistance, maybe 10D inside for the silky feeling.

2- should I get a wide model so as to be able to layer with my alpinlite in the winter? Shoulder girth on the alpinlite is 63", I measure my shoulder girth at 51"-52" when lying down.

If in doubt, go wider. AFAICT, wide is c. 1 oz. heavier than regular. Do I have that right?

[shafty85]

^^^
Wide vs regular width, in a regular length model, is a difference of 2/3 of an oz.
20D vs 10D is a 2oz difference to have the entire outer fabric 20D, 1oz to have just the stripes as 20D on the exterior. Interior fabric is only available as 10D.

For the weight, obviously the 10D is the way to go. I'd love the 'extra' durability of the 20D, just not sure how must 'more' durable it is, so can't really judge if the 2oz, or 1oz, is worth it. I mean, every 1oz is ~7.5% increase from the base weight with 850 or 900 fill, as well as extra cost. Also, anyone have any comment on the benefits of 900 fill VS 850 fill? Weight is 1/2oz different.

[Bronco]

Also, anyone have any comment on the benefits of 900 fill VS 850 fill? Weight is 1/2oz different.

How about compressibility? Does the 900 compress noticeably more than the 850? I can't imagine there's a huge difference but if there is enough, you'd possibly be able to take a smaller pack, thereby reducing weight.