Din setting Question...

[Cordova Kid]

So I consider myself fairly educated on bindings and ski stuff in general having worked in a ski shop or two in the past and hanging around here. So I was a little surprised when in the lift house in SLC when I overheard the sales guy talking to a couple about not setting your din to within two of the max din setting. So if your max is 12 you shouldn't go past 10.

Have I just been in the dark all these years (completely possible) or was he just trying to get them to buy a more expensive binding

[arild]

Bullshit. DIN means if the bindings are certified to release at, say, 12, they can be skied at 12. Same for 16 and 18 DIN bindings. DIN testing is a necessary evil for the binding companies. Expensive for them, great for us.

[rasi]

Easy answer: yes, if your binding ranges from 4-12 a setting of 12 is just fine. Why shouldn't it be?

Complex answer: The release settings basically are adjusted by tensioning a steel spring. A more compressed spring means a higher force is required to release the binding, a relaxed spring obviously means less force is necessary to pop you out.
Now ze Germans like to have things measurable and comparable, that's why they have an institute called DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) that norms all kind of stuff. These guys took up on the task of putting a measurement to these release values to make sure any binding from any manufacturer when set to the same value would release when exposed to the same force.
When your bindings are fresh the scale on the binding is accurate set to match that normed scale. But springs, when compressed to the max for a long period (read: set to the highest release "DIN" setting) won't return to their original relaxed length and therefore become shorter over time. When that happens, the indication on the binding's scale will no longer match the true normed DIN value and the binding will release at a lesser force. That's why shops have special machines to check the actual release values. So cranking your binding to the max will increase wear on the springs and especially older bindings should be regularly checked.

In addition there is a foundation called SIS (Security in ski sports) that regularly does security studies on bindings and has found that in repeated tests bindings did release more consistently when set to the middle of the possible settings, e.g. 8 for a 4-12 binding.

[skimaxpower]

^^excellent answer.

[neufox47]

What about travel? Ive heard people on this board who seem to know their stuff say that when you max out your DINs the compressed spring takes more force to release but it will have less travel. Therefore for sudden impacts a Din of 12 may hold you in where a Din of 1(edit 14); (say the binding macs at 14) may have you pop out. I was told this first when racing with 1018 metal bindings. But I have heard others on this board say the same.

[Tunco]

A sales guy up-selling you say?

[Kim Jong-un]

On the other hand, I've been told a screaming orange FKS180 set at 8.5 gives you a whole lot more street cred than a FKS140 set at the same DIN.

[Seabass]

Easy answer: yes, if your binding ranges from 4-12 a setting of 12 is just fine. Why shouldn't it be?

Complex answer: The release settings basically are adjusted by tensioning a steel spring. A more relaxed spring means a higher force is required to release the binding, a relaxed spring obviously means less force is necessary to pop you out.
Now ze Germans like to have things measurable and comparable, that's why they have an institute called DIN (Deutsches Institut für Normung) that norms all kind of stuff. These guys took up on the task of putting a measurement to these release values to make sure any binding from any manufacturer when set to the same value would release when exposed to the same force.
When your bindings are fresh the scale on the binding is accurate set to match that normed scale. But springs, when compressed to the max for a long period (read: set to the highest release "DIN" setting) won't return to their original relaxed length and therefore become shorter over time. When that happens, the indication on the binding's scale will no longer match the true normed DIN value and the binding will release at a lesser force. That's why shops have special machines to check the actual release values. So cranking your binding to the max will increase wear on the springs and especially older bindings should be regularly checked.

In addition there is a foundation called SIS (Security in ski sports) that regularly does security studies on bindings and has found that in repeated tests bindings did release more consistently when set to the middle of the possible settings, e.g. 8 for a 4-12 binding.

What qualifies as an older "older binding"...5 years? 7 years???

[xtrmjoe]

I got into the habbit back in my shop rat days of lowering the dins when I put on summer wax. Have several sets of sollys that are still going strong. Have no idea if it matters but I do it anyway.
When I scrape the summer wax I always check the boot to binding fit, vertical toe height and foward pressure. I also get me and the lady on the scale to make sure were still in the same bracket.
Is it ever a good idea to completely max out any mechanical/electrical device? I usually try to have at least a 10% margin of safety weather its towing capacity, a cpu, or binder. If you overbuild/engineer something it rarely under performs.

[ill-advised strategy]

I used to worry about all the tension on my springs...then one day I found myself walking out to my 1978 ford thinking "hmmm....there sure are a lot of 30 year old springs in this 30 year old Ford, and none of them seem to mind being compressed all the time."

[sr9070]

You have to consider your binding as well personally id feel more comfortable with an sth 16 cranked to 16 then a z10 at 10 ( just an example). Having tested more bindings then i care to count i would still recommend trying to stay within the middle of your bindings din range... more then once I have refused to test a binding that is max out ( a reserved right for a certified tech) its just not something i am comfortable signing off on. Bottom line have your binding calibrated yearly its cheaper then a new knee.

[Knut]

Bottom line have your binding calibrated yearly its cheaper then a new knee.

Honestly, that often heard argument I never got. Why should a binding that due to potential spring softening might pre-release be a danger for the knee?
Not that wrong release values are desired or harmless, but knee injuries are mostly due to non-releases.

[skimaxpower]

Bottom line have your binding calibrated yearly its cheaper then a new knee.

Word. QFT.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I used to worry about all the tension on my springs...then one day I found myself walking out to my 1978 ford thinking "hmmm....there sure are a lot of 30 year old springs in this 30 year old Ford, and none of them seem to mind being compressed all the time."

Suspension not being the same in your truck doesn't fuck your shit up.

And I've also heard the +/- 2 DIN thing. Aside from upselling, you're getting outside the optimal operating range of the binding. Do you buy a half ton truck to haul 1,000lbs in the bed all day, every day? No you don't.

[Alaskan Rover]

So I consider myself fairly educated on bindings and ski stuff in general having worked in a ski shop or two in the past and hanging around here. So I was a little surprised when in the lift house in SLC when I overheard the sales guy talking to a couple about not setting your din to within two of the max din setting. So if your max is 12 you shouldn't go past 10.

Have I just been in the dark all these years (completely possible) or was he just trying to get them to buy a more expensive binding

For the most part, most good binding manufacturers use springs heavy-duty springs that in theory would be able to take much more stress than a skiing accident would generate. The problem is not so much the spring-rating, but the componentry in the bindings to which the springs are attached...it is that componentry that can fail...all the little aluminum bits and plastic bits have an aggregate failure yield.

Given that, I think the salesman you'd overheard was just being cautious...some may say OVERLY-cautious.

When I was racing, I was mostly on Markers...and I'd max those suckers out on din. I never had a problem with the Markers. I DID overstress some tyrolias, but they were a crap mid-range model, so it wasn't the binding's fault.

The bottom line is to keep your bindings well-maintened. Most folks barely look at them until they put them on take them off. Keep them well-lubricated and grit-free...clean them after every day or at least every other day...just like the deraileurs after a long muddy single-track session, and they should last a LONG time.

[cat in january]

What about travel? Ive heard people on this board who seem to know their stuff say that when you max out your DINs the compressed spring takes more force to release but it will have less travel. Therefore for sudden impacts a Din of 12 may hold you in where a Din of 1(edit 14); (say the binding macs at 14) may have you pop out. I was told this first when racing with 1018 metal bindings. But I have heard others on this board say the same.

Maybe this is the thread to answer a question that has been bouncing around in my head. My sense is that when I used to set my bindings at high din when I competed that my knees hurt more because there was less travel than when they were set at more reasonable din levels. Was this in my head or is travel reduced and more stress transmitted to the knee at higher din?

[sr9070]

To my knowledge the only way to adjust the "travel" of your binding release is the adjustable wings on the salomon driver style toe piece or the heel of the rossi fks style turn table and its " vertical elasticity". The din should not affect the amount of distance needed to release the binding just the force required. My guess is that the sore feelings in your knee was a result of the extra force that you where allowed to exert on the binding before it released. Im not a binding engineer by any means just an experianced tech but as far as I understand thats my diagnosis.

[DeepHelmet]

To my knowledge the only way to adjust the "travel" of your binding release is the adjustable wings on the salomon driver style toe piece or the heel of the rossi fks style turn table and its " vertical elasticity".

HUH?????

[jerr]

If anybody bothered to search for this you'd find it has been discussed at leeeeeenght.

It boggles my mind that people think that the engineers who; spent all that research & development money, over all those tens of years, with so much profit to capitalise on (if only they could just get it right), and who are ultimately liable, would build bindings that wouldn't work to the ends of the designed DIN range?

Think about it people? Particularly when binding manufacturers issue a list each year of those bindings they still consider to be 'of-standard' which often stretches back 15+ years.

And to add to the 'test your binding every year' gig; in NZ there are zero binding testing machines and no-body has even thought about bringing one in. This is either because; knees in NZ are naturally more robust (all the rugby I suspect), or the litigation system in NZ isn't mad - who can tell?

[DerekPersson]

On the other hand, I've been told a screaming orange FKS180 set at 8.5 gives you a whole lot more street cred than a FKS140 set at the same DIN.

pshh....obviously.

[JayBruce]

The bottom line is to keep your bindings well-maintened. Most folks barely look at them until they put them on take them off. Keep them well-lubricated and grit-free...clean them after every day or at least every other day...just like the deraileurs after a long muddy single-track session, and they should last a LONG time.

errr you actually clean your bindings after day skiing on them? Maybe I've been a tard for all these years, but that seems pretty extreme to me.

[Rasputin]

To my knowledge the only way to adjust the "travel" of your binding release is the adjustable wings on the salomon driver style toe piece or the heel of the rossi fks style turn table and its " vertical elasticity". The din should not affect the amount of distance needed to release the binding just the force required. My guess is that the sore feelings in your knee was a result of the extra force that you where allowed to exert on the binding before it released. Im not a binding engineer by any means just an experianced tech but as far as I understand thats my diagnosis.

He said ELASTIC travel, which is lateral movement of the toe under tension before the boot releases. Loose toe wings (improperly adjusted) has nothing to do with elastic travel. JONG!

Incidentally, if the bindings in question were Salomons, or Look/Rossis, then the higher the DIN setting, the more resistance to elastic travel (which goes with cat in january's surmise), however, with Marker twin cam toes, once the toe moves laterally they release, as there is a tipping point where lateral resistance lessens. This is why many people hate Markers, they don't absorb lateral shocks with elastic travel.

errr you actually clean your bindings after day skiing on them? Maybe I've been a tard for all these years, but that seems pretty extreme to me.

Many people carry them in open ski racks on top of their cars , where road grit gets sprayed all over them, JONG!

[neufox47]

If anybody bothered to search for this you'd find it has been discussed at leeeeeenght.

It boggles my mind that people think that the engineers who; spent all that research & development money, over all those tens of years, with so much profit to capitalise on (if only they could just get it right), and who are ultimately liable, would build bindings that wouldn't work to the ends of the designed DIN range?

Think about it people? Particularly when binding manufacturers issue a list each year of those bindings they still consider to be 'of-standard' which often stretches back 15+ years.

If they were that thorough, why are there so many shit bindings on the market (atomic 914s). If companies gave engineers free reign and blank paychecks to design the bindings - sure. But most companies are going to build a binding until its "good enough" for the average joe. There are wayyy too many shitty bindings out there.

[XXX-er]

errr you actually clean your bindings after day skiing on them? Maybe I've been a tard for all these years, but that seems pretty extreme to me.

well if you carry them uncovered on yer car which i never do they get pretty dirty but IMO more people should be checking for loose mounting screws

[shafty85]

On the other hand, I've been told a screaming orange FKS180 set at 8.5 gives you a whole lot more street cred than a FKS140 set at the same DIN.

That's me. I use the pretense of a killer deal on Look 18s, but really, I just wanted to look cool (like the cool kids) and hardcore (like the hardcore kids).