Thread: the Wasatch's new worst enemy=TALISKER

Originally Posted by Johnny Deep

And to the Josh charater that posted on Straightshooter...your a fucking moron!

Hah, it wasn't me. I gave up caring about anything years ago .

Originally Posted by JoshP

Hah, it wasn't me. I gave up caring about anything years ago .

Made me laugh!

I saw Talisker owner Jack Bistricer's daughter Tues night at the new kosher restaurant in town. Full on smokin hottie. I think if this thread had nekid pics of her you would all become Talisker supporters.

Everyone I meet that works for them hates this thing too. I wish I knew a way demonstrate the alternatives. It just seems so much more palatable to interconnect through the already developed area of guardsman. I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall on this one. Common sense just doesn't seem to prevail here. Right now we have the movie studio being forced on us by the legislature on one side of town and this crap on the other. I know the Repubs hate all the Park City Libs, but I thought minimizing impact in the Wasatch would be universally unpopular. Funny how out of touch I am.

more reason to support companies like Black Diamond
editorial by BD CEO Peter Metcalf in today's SL tribune:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion...state.html.csp

Originally Posted by Peter Metcalf

Each year the Utah Legislature attacks the magnificent public lands that exemplify the Utah experience. This year several legislators, with Gov. Gary Herbert’s support, have offered bills that would transfer ownership of federal public lands to the state, which would then be free to sell them for development.

Herbert also supports litigating rights to approximately 19,000 miles of dirt roads and faint tracks through our national parks, monuments, and wilderness areas under an old repealed federal law known as R.S.2477. Where we now have iconic Utah landscapes, we’d have roads, fumes, oil and gas fields and coal mines. These are short-sighted, destructive bills that would do lasting harm to our state, our economy and our quality of life and would do permanent damage to Utah’s status as a leader in the active outdoor recreational economy.

Without its awe-inspiring, wide-open spaces, Utah would be just another “flyover” state, with little to set us apart from dozens of other states vying for new businesses in this challenging economic climate.

To date, Utah has balanced economic vitality with a sense of stewardship for protecting the landscapes that make our state unique. But the current bills would rob us of that equilibrium and destroy one of the most vibrant and fastest-growing economic sectors in our state — active outdoor recreation. This is an industry that is dependent on the integrity of our public lands. For that, we’ll be rewarded with the continued vibrancy of our active outdoor recreation economy.

Utah’s remarkable natural beauty gives us an edge when it comes to convincing businesses to relocate. They see the unparalleled opportunities to hike, ski, kayak, camp and spend time with their families as a significant attraction. I know. Drawn by the open spaces to ski, climb and backpack, I moved our business from California to Salt Lake in 1991. Since then, Black Diamond has grown into a $145 million, publicly traded enterprise that employs nearly 300 people in Utah and many more globally.

However, Black Diamond is just a small part of a vigorous, growing outdoor industry in Utah. According to the Outdoor Industry Association, the active outdoor recreation industry contributes $5.8 billion annually to Utah’s economy, supports 65,000 Utah jobs, generates nearly $300 million in annual state tax revenues and produces nearly $4 billion annually in retail sales and services in Utah.

Additionally, our industry hosts the Outdoor Retailer trade show in Salt Lake City twice a year. The show attracts more than 2,000 companies and over 40,000 people from all over the world and amounts to $40 million in direct spending within the city.

Without natural places for our customers to recreate, our businesses would be seriously handicapped, and Utah’s economy would be unnecessarily damaged.

That’s why this Legislature’s attack on federal public lands, with full support from the governor, is so short-sighted. These folks are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. The roads litigation would also negate an explicit promise made by then Gov. Mike Leavitt (and respected by Leavitt’s successors, Olene Walker and Jon Huntsmen) to the Outdoor Industry in 2004 as a means of keeping the Outdoor Tradeshow in Salt Lake City and the outdoor recreation economy vibrant.

Herbert should exercise leadership and inspire all Utahns to see beyond the mindless rhetoric that passes for debate on this issue in the Legislature. It would be wonderful if Utah’s political leaders celebrated the world-renowned beauty of the federal public lands in our state instead of trying to bulldoze them for short-term profit.

Can’t the governor and Legislature realize that these federal public lands are a gold mine — as they exist right now?

Herbert represents all the people of the state, including those who value pristine wildlands and the beauty, solitude, and economic benefit they offer. Many Utahns are part of this vibrant, and growing industry, and we wonder why these bills, their sponsors and the governor choose to turn their backs on this economic windfall.

If winning the hearts and minds of the Outdoor Industry Tradeshow participants and the outdoor recreational community is important to Utah, these bills will insure the opposite result. Clearly, the governor has a lot to answer for.

Peter Metcalf is chief executive officer of Salt Lake City-based Black Diamond Inc., an outdoor recreation equipment company.

Originally Posted by Parvo

I saw Talisker owner Jack Bistricer's daughter Tues night at the new kosher restaurant in town. Full on smokin hottie. I think if this thread had nekid pics of her you would all become Talisker supporters.

Get compromising pics of parvo , said daughter and a ham and cheese sandwich, send to Jack , induce heart attack, problem solved.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

Beartrap Fork??? Best BC terrain???!! you are not serious. crap skiing.

CRAP!!! I tell you.

My point is that is SkiLink (one of the most ill-conceived of numerous proposed lifts in the central Wasatch) goes through...then proponents of the several other proposed lifts effectively have a mechanism to get things done and can leverage supporters of development in the central Wasatch more readily.

Take a look at the maps and the projects on the link below and imagine if the Skilink domino falls and then all these others gain momentum. The central wasatch backcountry in LCC and BCC could be starkly different in 5-10 years. Backcountry users will have fewer options, be more crowded and somewhat relegated to wilderness areas and longer approaches or more distant locations.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...94818450534423

Brutah thanks for the post

Alternatively, PCMR seeks damages for Talisker’s delay in disclosing its intent to terminate the parties’ agreements. With knowledge that it intended to evict PCMR, Talisker continued to collect rental fees, allowed PCMR to invest over $7,000,000 in infrastructure improvements, and participated in discussions regarding a possible interconnect between the two resorts. PCMR seeks compensatory damages in the amount of $7,000,000 plus interest as well as punitive damages.

http://www.supportpcmr.com/the-lawsuit/

Saw this on the page that PCMR set up to defend it's decision to sue Talisker. I don't recall "official" discussion of a PCMR/Canyons lift elsewhere, though this would be a funny place to announce that ideation.

the SOC has reported the Rep. Jim Matheson has reintroduced the "Wasatch Wilderness and Watershed Protection Act!!!!!!!!!!"

This time he has included special provisions to special management areas to allow mountain biking, helicopter skiing and backcountry skiing in those areas, while expanding wilderness protection. Snowbird is supporting this act this time around, as is many outdoor recreation businesses and the act has backing from all the municipalities that rely on those areas for water!!!

pretty sweet news if you ask me! hopefully, this will pass this time around. I'm so excited I just called all the utah congressmen and senators to tell them I support this act and they should push it through congress as fast as possible!

more here:
http://matheson.house.gov/news-relea...-water-source/

numbers to call below:

Originally Posted by BRUTAH

Congressman Rob Bishop (call if you are not in his district as he will not accept your email)
(202) 225-0453
http://robbishop.house.gov/ZipAuth.aspx

Congressman Jason Chaffetz (call if you are not in his district as he will not accept your email)
(202) 225-7751
http://chaffetz.house.gov/contact/email-me.shtml

Senator Orrin Hatch
(202) 224-5251
http://hatch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/email-orrin

Senator Mike Lee
(202) 224-5444
http://lee.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact

Congressman Jim Matheson (Encourage him to actively fight this proposal that sells off lands in his district)
(202) 225-3011
https://mathesonforms.house.gov/contact-form#dialog

Governor Gary Herbert
http://www.utah.gov/governor/contact/index.html

Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands.
202-226-7736.

Mountain bikes are banned in wilderness. The bill does not protect anything, is unnecessary, and the ONLY thing it does is ban mountainbikng in the best parts of the Wasatch. DO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. Save the future of mountainbiking in the wasatch and call those numbers above and ask them to OPPOSE it!

P.S. And vote that fucker Matheson out of office next time around and kill this horrible bill for good.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

Mountain bikes are banned in wilderness. The bill does not protect anything, is unnecessary, and the ONLY thing it does is ban mountainbikng in the best parts of the Wasatch. DO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. Save the future of mountainbiking in the wasatch and call those numbers above and ask them to OPPOSE it!

P.S. And vote that fucker Matheson out of office next time around and kill this horrible bill for good.

Have you read the bill actually? I can't find it by doing any searches so I would like to see where you found this information that it will ban mountain biking in the best parts of the Wasatch.

Yes I have read the bill. Wilderness designation AUTOMATICALLY bans mountain bikes by it's very nature. In any area that is designated wilderness, it mountainbikes are illegal, which means that you will be fined or put on jail and have a criminal record for the simple act of riding your mountain bike on many of the trails we currently enjoy. Plus it will mean that there will be no new mountainbikes specific trail development in the wasatch which will in effect, kill the sport here.

where can you read a copy of the bill? I have searched and am unable to find it. I see mention of wilderness designation but only in select areas(Lone Peak, Twin Peaks, Grandeur) that aren't big mountain bike areas currently.

Super crest-grizzly to days
Days fork downhill
Silverfork
Pole line to Cardiff
Cardiff downhill
Greens basin
Mineral fork
White pine
Mt Aire area
Jacobs Ladder
And surrounds

All CURRENT rides that will be made ILLEGAL. Not to even mention spur trails from the wasatch crest and other trails that will be impossible to exist once the new wilderness takes effect. The future of mountain biking in the Wasatch will be stunted irreparably by this bill.

People think that just because a ride isn't popular or listed on Utahmountainbiking.com that they don't exist. There are incredible adventurous epic backcountry rides out there that will be made illegal by the bill. STOP IT!

Just because you don't ride there doesn't mean that these areas aren't great rides and worth saving from the misinformed good intention and GREED of Save Our Canyons.

Save our backcountry biking. OPPOSE THE BILL.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

Blah blah blah.

Stuff the hot air.

Lets see the maps before you jerk the knee.

With a twitch like that how do you get down the hill?

Hey messanger,

This is a new bill, it has been rewritten. The maps haven't been released nor has the literature. And from what I have heard and been told this new bill addresses those very concerns by expanding some wildernesses and also designating 10000 acres as "special management areas" to allow for continued use for mtn biking, heli skiing,etc

Originally Posted by BRUTAH

The maps haven't been released nor has the literature.

Maps here. I love the exception for the turds. Funny. I'm hoping to get an exception written for me and my bro's, so we can haul our wall tent in to Hogum via sled. Still working on it. Maybe if I pay one of our elected officials a few grand I can get a bill in Washington.
http://saveourcanyons.org/files/camp...WWPAmap_LG.pdf

Doesn't change a thing in term of mountain bike access.
Lets look at what this bill does.
-Doesn't stop heli-skiing
-Doesn't stop snowbird expansion
-doesn't stop Alta expansion
-doesn't stop Flagstaff lift
-doesn't stop Grizzly Gulch lift
-doesn't stop SkiLink

What does it do then exactly?

It bans mountain biking in the areas I mentioned above (and more). That's the ONLY thing it does. It's total bullshit!
This thing is going to kill backcountry mountain bike access in the central Wasatch. pLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS HORRIBLE BILL!

SOC's response to my inquiry about Mountain Biking

Originally Posted by Carl Fisher, Executive Director of Save Our Canyons

The changes had to do primarily with waterlines in Big Cottonwood. Nothing was added to the bill, only removed.
One thing we did do was expand the buffer on mountain bike trails to make sure they would be able to be rebuilt if something happened to them. The Wasatch Crest, Mill D North, Little Water, and Big Water all remain outside as introduced in 2010. We are hoping to get the official maps back from the forest Service soon. We also worked with the USFS to remove an area in upper millcreek for potential expansion of the trail system between Elbow fork and Big Water to get bikes off the narrow roadway.
I hope this addresses your concern, we will send a map around as soon as it is available. IMBA has again endorsed this Wilderness Proposal.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

Super crest-grizzly to days
Days fork downhill
Silverfork
Pole line to Cardiff
Cardiff downhill
Greens basin
Mineral fork
White pine
Mt Aire area
Jacobs Ladder
And surrounds

Silver fork would not be affected as its private property nor would most of cardiff be affected. plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. they're mostly too steep to pedal up, i usually see people pushing their bikes up and then riding down (and that's very rare to begin with). most mountain bikers don't use those trails for mountain biking for that very reason; they're too steep for good mountain biking.

Originally Posted by TheMessenger

Doesn't change a thing in term of mountain bike access.
Lets look at what this bill does.
-Doesn't stop heli-skiing
-Doesn't stop snowbird expansion
-doesn't stop Alta expansion
-doesn't stop Flagstaff lift
-doesn't stop Grizzly Gulch lift
-doesn't stop SkiLink

What does it do then exactly?

It bans mountain biking in the areas I mentioned above (and more). That's the ONLY thing it does. It's total bullshit!
This thing is going to kill backcountry mountain bike access in the central Wasatch. pLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS HORRIBLE BILL!

that map would designate the area where skilink is proposed as wilderness hence blocking the development of that land.
the government can't just go in and take private property from its owners to designate it as wilderness, which the areas where snowbird and alta have proposed expanding into are privately owned......

Originally Posted by BRUTAH

Silver fork would not be affected as its private property nor would most of cardiff be affected. plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. they're mostly too steep to pedal up, i usually see people pushing their bikes up and then riding down (and that's very rare to begin with). most mountain bikers don't use those trails for mountain biking for that very reason; they're too steep for good mountain biking.

Speak for yourself. I like riding Mineral, Days, and White Pine.

Originally Posted by BRUTAH

plus none of those areas you listed are really mountain bike trails, they're hiking trails that people illegally ride. ...........


that map would designate the area where skilink is proposed as wilderness hence blocking the development of that land.
......

You are misinformed. Those are multi use trails LEGAL for mountainbikes. To imply that people use them illegally is spreading lies and misinformation. Just because a trail isn't listed on Utahmountianbiking.com doesn't mean that is is not a mountainbike trail, and that its is not a good mountainbike trail.

All of the trails I listed are LEGAL mounatinbike trails and they are under appreciated and they are AWESOME!
Just because you don't use, or it doesn't fit your idea of mountain biking, it doesn't mean other people want to ride them or might want to in the future.

The central Wasatch is one of the secret gems of backcountry style mountainbiking IN THE WORLD and this bill would KILL IT!

And...
The wilderness bill will not stop SkiLink. They can move it fifty feet to the side, or angle station outside the wilderness boundary. Stop spreading lies and misinformation.

^^^that silver fork trail is most definitely not a legal biking trail there, bub.

and you're saying we should not protect those lands so very FEW mountain bikers (the amount that actually use those trails is probably well under 100 people) won't be able to use them. boo hooo. those trails will be gone anyways if tha land gets developed. you're spreading misinformation. help protect land for the masses and future generations, not the FEW mountain bikers that actually use those trails.

50 feet to the side of proposed wilderness puts skilink into private property, you know the bear trap fork development........ and the dude that owns the house closest to where skilink is proposed to go is vehemently against the idea of putting a lift in there, that's why he's donated so much money to SOC recently........

I'm on the fence on this one:

1-It definitely looks like it restricts Mountain Biking (which is part of the definition of Wilderness Area), the language specifically allows Heli Skiing and "sustainable recreation infrastructure". Nowhere does it say mountain biking will be permitted. Backcountry skiing is always allowed in Wilderness. However if IMBA supports it, Messenger should write them and ask why they support it and post their response.

2-It does not look like it does anything to stop SkiLink. The wilderness area is North of Square Top. There is plenty of room for a Ski Link South of the boundary, most of the Canyons is South of the boundary and they own plenty of the land, hence PC being closed down.

3-I am a huge fan of more Wilderness Designations in Southern Utah, some of the most insane country down there, San Rafael, etc, way cooler than the parks has no protection at all and Shale Gas is absolutely going off down off.

So I guess more wilderness is good, but that Summit Crest Trail from PC Ridgeline down into Mill Creek is a very popular trail, that looks to be in the designation, will that be closed?