the Wasatch's new worst enemy=TALISKER

[skiski]

You have traversed the Wasatch From Nebo up to Logan? Really? I'd like to see that TR. Although the Wasatch is smaller than the Alps, it is much larger geographically than most people perceive. Even if the resorts were interconnected as has been proposed, there would still be huge majority swaths of the range that are backcountry that never get skied. And thats not even including other nearby mountain ranges such as the Uintas, Oquirs, Stansburys, Tushars etc.

I'm pointing this out because so many people have such a limited view of what the wasatch and the surrounding area is, and are too lazy to venture out to see what is really there.

The backwards thinking in this state is not limited to liquor laws it appears. Interconnect would be awesome for skiing in the Wasatch, both inbounds and backcountry.

Most of the backcountry skiers in the wasatch have jobs, families, etc. The ability to get to the trailhead quickly makes all the difference for most of us regarding whether we get to ski that day. It's why Denver is no comparison to SLC for backcountry skiers.

Those other ranges, and the outer portions of the wasatch, have very limited access points, most of which require bushwacking through scrubbrush hell to get there. If backcountry skiing in the central wasatch were eliminated, I'd backcountry ski probably 75% less than I do now.

There are already probably 80 lifts covering 15,000 acres in the central wasatch (very rough estimate on my part). Why the fuck do we need lifts covering all of the easily accessed terrain in the central wasatch? Or, how many lifts are enough?

Also, you forget that skiing is not the only thing to do up there. There are lots of nice hikes, mountain bike rides, hunting, etc. Look at the picture of the canyons from McLean's website. When you put in a lift, the real eyesore is not the lift, but all the roads and other areas that are disturbed to put the lift in.

Some areas that are easily accessed need to be left for backcountry-style travel, and need to be left in as natural a condition as possible. The quick access from city to near wilderness is the best thing about SLC. It's why I live here. I know tons of other people who live here for the same reason.

As you note, there are plenty of other ranges around. If they are so awesome for skiing, go build some lifts there.

[brutah]

Not me. I've skied Daze Phork enough times, but I'm glad you enjoy it

just proving my point..... that outing you show a picture of took ya'll 10-12 hours, correct??? ok, i shouldn't have said i prefer days to timp, i was just trying to make a point that you can get 10 laps in days, OR you could get one lap on timp/nebo/BF twins/lone peak, etc
again, i don't always have full days to go skiing and while i masturbate to trip reports of skiing the east face off the north summit of timp, i don't always have the time or the balls for such outings......

but its not really about losing backcountry skiing, this is about

The Utah story has more to do with the use of PUBLIC LAND for private enterprise and the current law that bans uphill traffic inside resort boundaries.

Then there is the issue of water quality: Big Cottonwood Canyon is a watershed.

Those are the issues, this is not a "I got mine, FUCK YOU! Fuck Expansion!" attitude.

[bigdude2468]

Help me out here, is the proposed lift only on FS land? I have to think the ewnviromental permitting would be extensive. This is not like Snowbird expanding on property they already own or an additional trail being cut on adjacent FS land next to an existing ski area. Even Alta going up Flagstaff for "control work" is going to be a fight and that is contiguous with land they own. I would also assume this is NOT a part of the master plan that Canyons has on file with the FS so it would require a significant change.

[leroy jenkins]

You are dreaming. People who go to FL. in the winter would rather go to Barbados, or even Aspen, than Utah. Also, I hate to say it, but so long as the LDS church is running the wasatch and liquor sales in these parts, UT will never attract the crowds that justifies the current land rape fest.
While we are on the subject of Talisker, the Canyons will never make the money (real estate sales included) that justifies what they are doing to the land there. Golf, fish, mountain bike, chocolate shops, restaurants, concerts...no matter. UT just does not bring in the crowds (Thank God and the LDS church). Someone (or entity) is going to lose a lot of money, sell for $.20 on the dollar, and someone (entity) is going to buy the Canyons in 5 years in a fire sale.

You do realize that LCC is about 10X more crowded than Aspen ever is right? (excepting x games week). There are different bussiness models. Aspen;s customers throw money around like its nothing and support an awesome town and ski areas with very few skier visits. Altabirds customers get cheap flights into town and do budget vacations. There is no shortage of skiers at altabird, there is instead an math problem of how to make a profit of them because they are mostly cheap. (NTTAWWT, I myself am pretty cheap). Just saying, drawing more crowds isnt the answer.

You have traversed the Wasatch From Nebo up to Logan? Really? I'd like to see that TR. Although the Wasatch is smaller than the Alps, it is much larger geographically than most people perceive. Even if the resorts were interconnected as has been proposed, there would still be huge majority swaths of the range that are backcountry that never get skied. And thats not even including other nearby mountain ranges such as the Uintas, Oquirs, Stansburys, Tushars etc.

I'm pointing this out because so many people have such a limited view of what the wasatch and the surrounding area is, and are too lazy to venture out to see what is really there.

The backwards thinking in this state is not limited to liquor laws it appears. Interconnect would be awesome for skiing in the Wasatch, both inbounds and backcountry.

No I havent skied every single corner of the wasatch, but your point is irrelevant, this interconnect wouldnt open up any hard to access areas, all it would do is make easy to access areas lift served.

The wasatch is a tiny ass range. Some small corners remain harder to access because of local geographical features, like lone peak, its just not shaped in a way that allows easy access. That doesnt change the fact that the wasatch is a tiny little range.

Go wander around colorado and then compare. Even the hardest to access places in the wasatch are basically all within sight of a ski area or major city. There are some cool peaks and lines in the wasatch for sure, but its best feature is the snow it gets.

The stansburies dont get skied cus they are fucking lame. Sure you can have fun there, and yes I've never skied them, but from all the pics I've seen they are what are called foothills in MT Co or the Canadian Rockies.

The only people that think the wasatch is really that badass of a range (snowfall not considered) are transplanted ice coasters that don't know any better cus its all they've seen of the rockies.

Like Skiski said, the fact that there is that much easily accessible BC in the wasatch that is 'pretty good' terrain with great snow is what makes it awesome. Build lifts all over all the easily accessible stuff and its suddenly very mediocre in bounds terrain.

I'm all for the tram to the top of lone peak.



Regardless, I think the bigger point is that while an interconnect could be really cool THIS plan for an interconnect looks retarded.

[jgb@etree]

Couple of things from an outsiders perspective:

Made my first visit to Utah this April, and basically fell in love with the convenience of the place. Hell, my plane landed @ 10:30 and I was skiing in Park City by noon. Yes, the Canyons sucks. Definitely some decent terrain, but the flat as hell runouts just suck. The skiing was much better on the SLC side, but there are basically no accomodations so you have to deal with the drama of getting thru the gates, etc. It sure would be nice to be able to stay in a decent hotel (not that all of the places on the other side are complete shitholes, there are just a very limited # of rooms available) yet still ski where I want to without driving for 45 minutes & sitting in a line of traffic waiting to get up LCC. Spending an hour traversing and riding lifts would be better than driving around, IMO.

Anyhow, from a booze perspective, I was prepared to be mighty disappointed. Shit, I brought a handle of JW with me because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get my swerve on. Not only did every place I went have booze for me (as well as being able to buy it at the state liquor store) I discovered an awesome high alcohol content beer (Squatters Hop Rising - love that stuff).

Anyhow, that's my $0.02.

[skiski]

Couple of things from an outsiders perspective:

Made my first visit to Utah this April, and basically fell in love with the convenience of the place. Hell, my plane landed @ 10:30 and I was skiing in Park City by noon. Yes, the Canyons sucks. Definitely some decent terrain, but the flat as hell runouts just suck. The skiing was much better on the SLC side, but there are basically no accomodations so you have to deal with the drama of getting thru the gates, etc. It sure would be nice to be able to stay in a decent hotel (not that all of the places on the other side are complete shitholes, there are just a very limited # of rooms available) yet still ski where I want to without driving for 45 minutes & sitting in a line of traffic waiting to get up LCC. Spending an hour traversing and riding lifts would be better than driving around, IMO.

Anyhow, from a booze perspective, I was prepared to be mighty disappointed. Shit, I brought a handle of JW with me because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get my swerve on. Not only did every place I went have booze for me (as well as being able to buy it at the state liquor store) I discovered an awesome high alcohol content beer (Squatters Hop Rising - love that stuff).

Anyhow, that's my $0.02.

That actually highlights another problem with the interconnect- alta and the bird would probably be twice as crowded as they are now. Think it's hard to get freshies at alta now? Wait until the park city skiers descend on it.
As things are, if you want to ski inbounds and avoid crowds, you can go to solitude. THat will no longer be an option. I guess that, if you want fresh inbounds skiing after the interconnect you can go slay the scrubbrush at the canyons.


Also, I'll add that it's funny to me that you were that concerned about getting a drink in Utah. Admittedly, we have some crappy liquor laws. But they are more along the lines of inconvenience than outright restriction. THe only one that really bothers me is the lack of licenses for new restaurants and bars that is hurting our economy when times are already tough. And, I would have been pissed if they'd closed my neighborhood liquor store with the cuts proposed this summer. The thought of having to risk muggings to get booze at the liqour store on west temple is enough to make someone give it up altogether.

[Trackhead]

just proving my point..... that outing you show a picture of took ya'll 10-12 hours, correct???

Five hours up, but it's the longest approach there is on Timp. Most are 4 hours or less. Took a little over an hour to get back to the car. So about a six to seven hour tour. Not bad for route finding, down climbing, and taking our time.

[Trackhead]

i don't always have full days to go skiing and while i masturbate to trip reports of skiing the east face off the north summit of timp, i don't always have the time or the balls for such outings......

Well, now that I have a four month old in my house, Daze Phorque seems a lot more my style with time commitments, etc. I was just messin' with ya.

[Trackhead]

^^^ barts still around aint he?
5 hours for ubernuts who eat and drink and boil water on the go without loosing skin stride.
you one ski skiin timp first snowfall again?
good season warm up

Yeah, Bart is still around. He's the neighborhood walk dog, not a ski dawg with his tripod issue.

[skiski]

Well, now that I have a four month old in my house, Daze Phorque seems a lot more my style with time commitments, etc. I was just messin' with ya.

You have no idea how happy you will be getting one run into days fork and back over to alta with kids in your life.

[skifishbum]

th could do 4 and still be home time for mini diaper change

[brutah]

th could do 4 and still be home time for mini diaper change

i hear he changes diapers and breast feeds while touring............

[Trackhead]

i hear he changes diapers and breast feeds while touring............

[brutah]

^^^^ damn dude, you've really filled out nicely. I see all that working out has really payed off!!!

and then the local news media got wind of the story. seeing ole ted wilson trying to defend the tram proposal is akin to ghandi wearing an SS uniform

http://www.parkrecord.com/ci_18989190

http://www.parkrecord.com/letters-to...or/ci_18989193

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=17425502

[Trackhead]

and then the local news media got wind of the story. seeing ole ted wilson trying to defend the tram proposal is akin to ghandi wearing an SS uniform

http://www.parkrecord.com/ci_18989190



http://www.parkrecord.com/letters-to...or/ci_18989193


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=17425502

Yeah, the proposed lift will save all those pesky carbon emissions. Every lift ticket you buy is a direct donation to carbon offsets. Feel good about it Ted.

[thedrew55]

That actually highlights another problem with the interconnect- alta and the bird would probably be twice as crowded as they are now. Think it's hard to get freshies at alta now? Wait until the park city skiers descend on it.
As things are, if you want to ski inbounds and avoid crowds, you can go to solitude. THat will no longer be an option. I guess that, if you want fresh inbounds skiing after the interconnect you can go slay the scrubbrush at the canyons.


Also, I'll add that it's funny to me that you were that concerned about getting a drink in Utah. Admittedly, we have some crappy liquor laws. But they are more along the lines of inconvenience than outright restriction. THe only one that really bothers me is the lack of licenses for new restaurants and bars that is hurting our economy when times are already tough. And, I would have been pissed if they'd closed my neighborhood liquor store with the cuts proposed this summer. The thought of having to risk muggings to get booze at the liqour store on west temple is enough to make someone give it up altogether.

DING, DING, DING we have a winner. At least in my opinion. We will all have different points of view on this, but I think we can almost all agree that any increase in traffic to Solitude will totally screw up the one place you can find fresh tracks inbounds in the SLC area.

Five hours up, but it's the longest approach there is on Timp. Most are 4 hours or less. Took a little over an hour to get back to the car. So about a six to seven hour tour. Not bad for route finding, down climbing, and taking our time.

Back before kids and moving away, and then back again, I used to do short tours up Timp (1-2 hours). From Aspen Grove it is possible to do quick trips, but they are not nearly as good as the short tours available up BCC or LCC. It's barely worth a comparison.

[smuggs]

[brutah]

DING, DING, DING we have a winner. At least in my opinion. We will all have different points of view on this, but I think we can almost all agree that any increase in traffic to Solitude will totally screw up the one place you can find fresh tracks inbounds in the SLC area.

they're all going to get more crowded, its not like people are going to stop reproducing anytime soon. the world's population has doubled in my lifetime and I'm relatively young, and it continues to increase at an exponential rate. which means there will probably be an increase in skiers.....

the way i see it is that the interconnect is inevitable, but the fight is to make it as low impact as possible and force ski areas to use their existing land/intrastructure to accomplish this NOT award them with public lands for private enterprise.

face it people the interconnect is coming!!! do i like it? not one bit. but i don't want to lose more than i have to and allowing a tram from the canyons over bear trap fork and upper mill d north fork is a large chunk of public lands that the people of utah can not afford to lose to privatization.

[thedrew55]

Very well put BRUTAH. We just have to make the best of a crappy situation. As for me... I'm more and more leaning towards driving an extra hour north to PowMow on busy days.

Total crap to let private companies use public land to pad their pockets and provide a venue for fur coats and Bogner fag bags to get their jollies.

[leroy jenkins]

Yeah, the proposed lift will save all those pesky carbon emissions. Every lift ticket you buy is a direct donation to carbon offsets. Feel good about it Ted.

I don't see how his claim of reducing traffic up BCC has any credibility. Does he really think all those people are driving from the park city side? They're coming from SLC and this tram won't do anything to stop them driving up BCC.

Stupid.

So is there any public action on this yet? A petition perhaps, or something else just as useless that will at least let me feel like I've done something.
?

[skiski]

You know what, if it is inevitable, this is one of the worst possible ways to do it. One complaint about BCC/LCC from the tourists' point of view, is that there are no hotels/restaurants/nightlife. But, if you are going to connect them, connect them to PCMR, where at least, after you ride lifts for hours, you are in a touristy town that is somewhat walkable. If you connect to the canyons, the PC tourists still have to drive to the canyons. And, the BCC tourist who wants to go to PC for food, bars, etc. lands out there, a mile of the highway near kimball junction, surrounded by hiddeous architecture (even by utah standards).

If you really want to connect BCC and PC, put a lift from Brighton through guardsman, which is already disturbed by the road.

[My Pet Powder Goat]

You know what, if it is inevitable, this is one of the worst possible ways to do it. One complaint about BCC/LCC from the tourists' point of view, is that there are no hotels/restaurants/nightlife. But, if you are going to connect them, connect them to PCMR, where at least, after you ride lifts for hours, you are in a touristy town that is somewhat walkable. If you connect to the canyons, the PC tourists still have to drive to the canyons. And, the BCC tourist who wants to go to PC for food, bars, etc. lands out there, a mile of the highway near kimball junction, surrounded by hiddeous architecture (even by utah standards).
f you really want to connect BCC and PC, put a lift from Brighton through guardsman, which is already disturbed by the road.

all good points. I always assumed the interconnect would one day happen and most likely at PCMR, since (I believe?) most that land behind PCMR is owned by the mining company, making negotiations easier. I think Talisker is just trying to get a jump on PCMR and trying to drive up bussiness for their real estate shit show. I'm hoping it's just a bullshit pipedream

[StraightChuter]

the way i see it is that the interconnect is inevitable, but the fight is to make it as low impact as possible and force ski areas to use their existing land/intrastructure to accomplish this NOT award them with public lands for private enterprise.

Ahmen Brutah.

[blowupthemoon]

all good points. I always assumed the interconnect would one day happen and most likely at PCMR, since (I believe?) most that land behind PCMR is owned by the mining company, making negotiations easier.

Talikser acquired United Park City Mining Company, and their land holdings, in 2003.

[yabyum]

Any one with any knowledge of history knows that park west is a black hole where money goes and corporations go to die!. The place is not that well thought out, that said, in the current economy Talisker will be long gone before the lift(s) are built. Upper BCC is a great place for a mellow meadow skip, this will do nothing to help that scene. BCC is THE go to canyon when the dark clouds of the LCC shit show stain the horizon. I have a cubit of PBR that this will not go down in my lifetime. Wanna bet Ted?