Thread: Solyndra

More Fuctness for Obama...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...STL_print.html

Energy Department officials were warned that their plan to help a failing solar company by restructuring its $535 million federal loan could violate the law and should be cleared with the Justice Department, according to newly obtained e-mails from within the Obama administration.

The e-mails show that Energy Department officials moved ahead anyway with a new deal that would repay company investors before taxpayers if the company defaulted. The e-mails, which were reviewed by The Washington Post, show for the first time concerns within the administration about the legality of the Energy Department’s extraordinary efforts to help Solyndra, the California solar company that went bankrupt Aug. 31.

http://reason.com/archives/2011/11/0...lyndra-silence

A more open government.

Originally Posted by hitek79

http://reason.com/archives/2011/11/0...lyndra-silence

A more open government.

Can we go with - Broken Campaign Promise?

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Jim Cramer just said The Greens are at the heart of the JOBS PROBLEM. He's a leftie.

How long would you like to have jobs ?

One of the hilarious things about this is you don't even know why your against green energy just that popular media tells you liberals are for it so therefore you must be against it.

Exxon Mobil is heavily involved in wind and solar and in their own presentation's outlines in great depth how it will be significantly cheaper than all other forms of electricity generation other than potentially new kinds of nuclear.

The advantage of wind and solar is that your primary resource for the production of electricity comes to you, you have to do none of the things necessary to burn fossil fuels and that shit is very expensive.

Solar and Wind are in the infancy, you are the idiot dismissing the Model T because you feel the horse is a superior form of transportation, worse yet you know absolutely nothing about any of the current existing technologies and the ones currently under development.

Don't let your blinding hate for one mildly important man get in the way of discovering the truth that its all a socialist conspiracy to get you to change your light bulbs and install low flow toilets.

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

How long would you like to have jobs ?

One of the hilarious things about this is you don't even know why your against green energy just that popular media tells you liberals are for it so therefore you must be against it.

Exxon Mobil is heavily involved in wind and solar and in their own presentation's outlines in great depth how it will be significantly cheaper than all other forms of electricity generation other than potentially new kinds of nuclear.

The advantage of wind and solar is that your primary resource for the production of electricity comes to you, you have to do none of the things necessary to burn fossil fuels and that shit is very expensive.

Solar and Wind are in the infancy, you are the idiot dismissing the Model T because you feel the horse is a superior form of transportation, worse yet you know absolutely nothing about any of the current existing technologies and the ones currently under development.

Don't let your blinding hate for one mildly important man get in the way of discovering the truth that its all a socialist conspiracy to get you to change your light bulbs and install low flow toilets.

Did the federal government give Henry Ford Billions to start the Ford Motor Company and heavily subsidize the Model T?

I'm not against "Green Energy". I'm all for it. I'm against the government picking favorites in any industry.

If Exxon thinks they can make a buck with wind and solar GREAT! They will either meet the needs of the market and make $$$ or they won't but it should be their risk and their reward not the tax payers risk and their reward.

I have a feeling they are doing it because Uncle Sam is footing the bill. If that's the case, it's just more crony capitalism that should not be happening.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

Did the federal government give Henry Ford Billions to start the Ford Motor Company and heavily subsidize the Model T?

I'm not against "Green Energy". I'm all for it. I'm against the government picking favorites in any industry.

If Exxon thinks they can make a buck with wind and solar GREAT! They will either meet the needs of the market and make $$$ or they won't but it should be their risk and their reward not the tax payers risk and their reward.

I have a feeling they are doing it because Uncle Sam is footing the bill. If that's the case, it's just more crony capitalism that should not be happening.

I agree, its stupid for the government to pick winners and losers, they arent very good at it (Solyndra is a case in point)

Of course, in addition to stopping the billions in subsidies we give to "green" energy companies, i would also stop the HUNDREDS of billions in direct and indirect subsidies we give to the oil and gas industry, and probably institute some new taxes on fossil fuel use to offset somewhat the TRILLIONS in subsidies that we have given those industries over the last hundred years

Energy is the most artificial, least fair, most government influenced market on the planet. Of course i agree that the answer to that is not to make it even MORE so

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

I agree, its stupid for the government to pick winners and losers, they arent very good at it (Solyndra is a case in point)

Of course, in addition to stopping the billions in subsidies we give to "green" energy companies, i would also stop the HUNDREDS of billions in direct and indirect subsidies we give to the oil and gas industry, and probably institute some new taxes on fossil fuel use to offset somewhat the TRILLIONS in subsidies that we have given those industries over the last hundred years

Energy is the most artificial, least fair, most government influenced market on the planet. Of course i agree that the answer to that is not to make it even MORE so

They aren't picking winners and losers, they are trying to jump start and industry that is necessary for the survival of the human race. Additionally if you think 500 million is a problem best not look at the budget or about a trillion other things.

Hahahah on the fossil fuels subsidies, that right there is proof of your little knowledge of the subject. Most of those subsides are to protect the consumer and society not the drillers. I would agree though that shouldn't be allowed to take the entire equipment deduction in the first year.

You are absolutely right about it being one of the most artificial and controlled markets on the planet. That is because it is directly for the benefit of you, I and every other person on this planet. The god like free market is mostly a concept and it doesn't work in energy production for a number of fundamental reasons.

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

They aren't picking winners and losers, they are trying to jump start and industry that is necessary for the survival of the human race. Additionally if you think 500 million is a problem best not look at the budget or about a trillion other things.

Hahahah on the fossil fuels subsidies, that right there is proof of your little knowledge of the subject. Most of those subsides are to protect the consumer and society not the drillers. I would agree though that shouldn't be allowed to take the entire equipment deduction in the first year.

You are absolutely right about it being one of the most artificial and controlled markets on the planet. That is because it is directly for the benefit of you, I and every other person on this planet. The god like free market is mostly a concept and it doesn't work in energy production for a number of fundamental reasons.

Right, every crappy idea that the govt foists on us is done under the auspices of "peoples benefit". What would benefit people the most is if the price we pay for things was most equal to their true economic cost. The way to do that is NOT by jerry rigging a broken market even more

I dont care who the subsidies are there to protect. I considered end users to be part of the industry in that context - the fact that a gallon of gas is way underpriced is just as wrong to me as the fact that oil companies get tax breaks. It doesnt matter to me where in the chain they are applied, and the biggest subsidies, the trillions we spend on defense ensuring the free flow of oil, and on infrastructure, benefit both providers and users

I disagree fundamentally on whether a free market can work in energy. It would be very simple - get rid of almost all the influences and tweaks that are maybe done with good intentions but all of which only serve to create inefficiency, apply a tax to deal with the inevitable externalities of pollution, infrastructure, etc, and start selling leases, etc at a price that truly reflects opportunity cost and the present value of future revenues. Of course that means that everybody has a voice - the person who doesnt want to use resources is free not to use them, the person who does is free to use them by paying the TRUE economic cost. Its called freedom and I understand why its scary - it means things may not proceed the way you or I want them to, because every voice counts. Truly come to grips with that and youll have a new perspective.

The oil companies have tons of money. If it were economically viable, they would do the R+D. They don't because it's not.

How bout Newts idea. Have a contest. Let the government give $1B/ $10B/ $100B or whatever the right number is, to the company that comes up with breakthrough A,B,C and D. AFTER they develop it and it is viable in the marketplace. That would be dirt cheap and we don't pay a penny for shit ideas that don't work.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

Right, every crappy idea that the govt foists on us is done under the auspices of "peoples benefit". What would benefit people the most is if the price we pay for things was most equal to their true economic cost. The way to do that is NOT by jerry rigging a broken market even more

I dont care who the subsidies are there to protect. I considered end users to be part of the industry in that context - the fact that a gallon of gas is way underpriced is just as wrong to me as the fact that oil companies get tax breaks. It doesnt matter to me where in the chain they are applied, and the biggest subsidies, the trillions we spend on defense ensuring the free flow of oil, and on infrastructure, benefit both providers and users

I disagree fundamentally on whether a free market can work in energy. It would be very simple - get rid of almost all the influences and tweaks that are maybe done with good intentions but all of which only serve to create inefficiency, apply a tax to deal with the inevitable externalities of pollution, infrastructure, etc, and start selling leases, etc at a price that truly reflects opportunity cost and the present value of future revenues. Of course that means that everybody has a voice - the person who doesnt want to use resources is free not to use them, the person who does is free to use them by paying the TRUE economic cost. Its called freedom and I understand why its scary - it means things may not proceed the way you or I want them to, because every voice counts. Truly come to grips with that and youll have a new perspective.

The most obviously right thing ever said in the history of words. If you disagree you are more evil than Hitler.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

Right, every crappy idea that the govt foists on us is done under the auspices of "peoples benefit". What would benefit people the most is if the price we pay for things was most equal to their true economic cost. The way to do that is NOT by jerry rigging a broken market even more

I dont care who the subsidies are there to protect. I considered end users to be part of the industry in that context - the fact that a gallon of gas is way underpriced is just as wrong to me as the fact that oil companies get tax breaks. It doesnt matter to me where in the chain they are applied, and the biggest subsidies, the trillions we spend on defense ensuring the free flow of oil, and on infrastructure, benefit both providers and users

I disagree fundamentally on whether a free market can work in energy. It would be very simple - get rid of almost all the influences and tweaks that are maybe done with good intentions but all of which only serve to create inefficiency, apply a tax to deal with the inevitable externalities of pollution, infrastructure, etc, and start selling leases, etc at a price that truly reflects opportunity cost and the present value of future revenues. Of course that means that everybody has a voice - the person who doesnt want to use resources is free not to use them, the person who does is free to use them by paying the TRUE economic cost. Its called freedom and I understand why its scary - it means things may not proceed the way you or I want them to, because every voice counts. Truly come to grips with that and youll have a new perspective.

I'm not sure what that first sentence is supposed to mean. Does the gov't waste money ? Sure but less than people think and they pay for lots of shit everyone likes, for instance the internet and pretty much every nuclear technology under the sun. Without gov't funding you wouldn't have the polywell or the IFR or any number of technologies that are integral to the energy future of not just Americans but humanity. As for the concept that the fossil fuel market is somehow broken is just ridiculous, if you understand 10% of what goes into O&G production or what has to happen for you to turn the computer on that statement is just stupid. There are certainly problems but the system simply in terms of working is pretty fucking excellent, I mean fuck 10-20 super tankers show up in America everyday.

You don't actually know what the subsidies are, which is why you need to speak in such broad terms.

Many of the subsidies are tax breaks that apply to all business not just O&G producers. Those would be percentage depletion allowance, the foreign tax credit, intangible drilling costs which is just writing off the costs of doing business though O&G producers take it in the first year as opposed to over the lifetime of the investment. The passive loss deduction is available to all business though oil producers get to take the a larger deduction as they are exempt from limitation rules. The section 199 deduction is identical in every other business sector.

They essentially take 4 tax deductions that are not available to other businesses those are the domestic manufacturing deduction, marginal well production credit, EOR and gov't R&D. The first promotes and insures domestic production and tries to counteract the ELM issue, if I have to explain to you why producing the most important resource on earth domestically is a good idea nobody is going to help you. The marginal well credit is for stripper wells, which are an important domestic oil source, the credit is for millions not billions and also helps ensure producers don't dump a well without it being properly capped and sealed. Without this credit you would have to find a million more barrels a day from economically viable rigs. Good luck with that. EOR essentially offsets the increased costs when using new or advanced recovery methods. So something like the use of nitrogen in bumping daily rates which frankly is what props up the Saudi's Ghawar rate which is the singles most important play in the world. Lastly is the Gov't R&D which is various DOE projects including the strategic reserve, they look into kerogen methods in shale plays and shit like that. If you dumped everything but the strategic reserve you would save maybe 400 million a year. Basically half of one day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Energy by definition cannot be a free market, first the barriers to market are extremely high. Drilling or building a new power plant is very complex and expensive. Gov't rightly realized how this particular market lends itself to extreme monopolies both by necessity (you can't build 19 different distribution systems) and by simple metrics and thus regulated the prices paid so as to not rip you and everyone else a new asshole. This is the most important problem in a "free" market energy system, you have no choice in whether or not you purchase energy you simply have to. Additionally for most of this stuff there is no alternative, you cannot power your car on carrots or plutonium. Supply and demand is the basic element of a free market and is simply not applicable to 90% of energy production. Lastly everything you see around you, everything you and I take for granted a million times a day requires oil. It is the basis for all other economic activity and 99% of all activities in society in general. One has to be sure about what they are doing and that last paragraph while interesting and somewhat admirable in its intention shows a basic lack of knowledge of energy in general. Everything you don't like is what gives you the freedom to do the bitching about your perceived lack of freedom in energy markets.

energy = national security

cannot let it go unwatched.

edit: we'd likely be having similar arguments about water if it wasn't so plentiful here in the USA.

Originally Posted by ArmadaBC

I'm not sure what that first sentence is supposed to mean. Does the gov't waste money ? Sure but less than people think and they pay for lots of shit everyone likes, for instance the internet and pretty much every nuclear technology under the sun. Without gov't funding you wouldn't have the polywell or the IFR or any number of technologies that are integral to the energy future of not just Americans but humanity. As for the concept that the fossil fuel market is somehow broken is just ridiculous, if you understand 10% of what goes into O&G production or what has to happen for you to turn the computer on that statement is just stupid. There are certainly problems but the system simply in terms of working is pretty fucking excellent, I mean fuck 10-20 super tankers show up in America everyday.

You don't actually know what the subsidies are, which is why you need to speak in such broad terms.

Many of the subsidies are tax breaks that apply to all business not just O&G producers. Those would be percentage depletion allowance, the foreign tax credit, intangible drilling costs which is just writing off the costs of doing business though O&G producers take it in the first year as opposed to over the lifetime of the investment. The passive loss deduction is available to all business though oil producers get to take the a larger deduction as they are exempt from limitation rules. The section 199 deduction is identical in every other business sector.

They essentially take 4 tax deductions that are not available to other businesses those are the domestic manufacturing deduction, marginal well production credit, EOR and gov't R&D. The first promotes and insures domestic production and tries to counteract the ELM issue, if I have to explain to you why producing the most important resource on earth domestically is a good idea nobody is going to help you. The marginal well credit is for stripper wells, which are an important domestic oil source, the credit is for millions not billions and also helps ensure producers don't dump a well without it being properly capped and sealed. Without this credit you would have to find a million more barrels a day from economically viable rigs. Good luck with that. EOR essentially offsets the increased costs when using new or advanced recovery methods. So something like the use of nitrogen in bumping daily rates which frankly is what props up the Saudi's Ghawar rate which is the singles most important play in the world. Lastly is the Gov't R&D which is various DOE projects including the strategic reserve, they look into kerogen methods in shale plays and shit like that. If you dumped everything but the strategic reserve you would save maybe 400 million a year. Basically half of one day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Energy by definition cannot be a free market, first the barriers to market are extremely high. Drilling or building a new power plant is very complex and expensive. Gov't rightly realized how this particular market lends itself to extreme monopolies both by necessity (you can't build 19 different distribution systems) and by simple metrics and thus regulated the prices paid so as to not rip you and everyone else a new asshole. This is the most important problem in a "free" market energy system, you have no choice in whether or not you purchase energy you simply have to. Additionally for most of this stuff there is no alternative, you cannot power your car on carrots or plutonium. Supply and demand is the basic element of a free market and is simply not applicable to 90% of energy production. Lastly everything you see around you, everything you and I take for granted a million times a day requires oil. It is the basis for all other economic activity and 99% of all activities in society in general. One has to be sure about what they are doing and that last paragraph while interesting and somewhat admirable in its intention shows a basic lack of knowledge of energy in general. Everything you don't like is what gives you the freedom to do the bitching about your perceived lack of freedom in energy markets.

I dont need to know what the specific subsidies are, I'm sure they are all well intentioned, just as I am also sure that they have plenty of unintended consequences. Thats how it works, thats always how it works. Its a universal truth - central planning ultimately doesnt work, and the reasons are well studied - basically it takes decisions away from those with the most expertise. I certainly dont claim to know as much about policy as you do, my knowledge of energy is on a thermodynamic level, but I think your opinion of economics is flawed.

Nobody has suggested a totally free market. What I am suggesting is a fair market, one where the cost of a gallon reflects the true economic cost. I think you know we dont have anything close to that, which is the VERY CAUSE of many of the things that you say make a free market impossible. I never proposed total deregulation, but its not like its the only sector with large barriers to entry or some of these other issues.

Edit to add: Part of the reason you "have" to plug into the grid is central planning has worked to nullify viable DG tech. Of course there are other energy uses that are harder to avoid

MORE Hundreds of Millions down the shitter...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/as-a...es-more-loans/

“The company, Ener1, received a $118 million grant from DOE [Department of Energy] in 2010 as part of the president’s stimulus package,”. “The money, which went to Ener1 subsidiary EnerDel, aimed to promote renewable energy storage battery technology for electrical grid use.”

Today, Ener1 announced it was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Dumping on the federal government for taking chances while trying to find alternative sources of energy is all well and good, until you stop and realize why they're doing it...

Get ready for a roller coaster ride...
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...volatility.ars

Originally Posted by Arty50

Dumping on the federal government for taking chances while trying to find alternative sources of energy is all well and good, until you stop and realize why they're doing it...

Get ready for a roller coaster ride...
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...volatility.ars

I can't open your link but the market will determine when alternates make sense. We don't need government funded crony capitalists to raping us in the mean time.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

I can't open your link but the market will determine when alternates make sense. We don't need government funded crony capitalists to raping us in the mean time.

We need privately funded crony capitalists raping us instead.

Right?

BTW hows your Mom?

Originally Posted by Bunion

We need privately funded crony capitalists raping us instead.

Right?

Definition of 'Crony Capitalism'
A description of capitalist society as being based on the close relationships between businessmen and the state. Instead of success being determined by a free market and the rule of law, the success of a business is dependent on the favoritism that is shown to it by the ruling government in the form of tax breaks, government grants and other incentives.

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/...#ixzz1kiyaR4bT

See, I am FOR Capitalism (In #5 font) Not Crony Capitalism.

Originally Posted by ilikecandy

I dont need to know what the specific subsidies are, I'm sure they are all well intentioned, just as I am also sure that they have plenty of unintended consequences. Thats how it works, thats always how it works. Its a universal truth - central planning ultimately doesnt work, and the reasons are well studied - basically it takes decisions away from those with the most expertise. I certainly dont claim to know as much about policy as you do, my knowledge of energy is on a thermodynamic level, but I think your opinion of economics is flawed.

You just got schooled by Armada and your comeback is, "I don't know what I am talking about but I believe in the magic invisible hand of the free market always".

That was just plain stupid.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

MORE Hundreds of Millions down the shitter...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/as-a...es-more-loans/

“The company, Ener1, received a $118 million grant from DOE [Department of Energy] in 2010 as part of the president’s stimulus package,”. “The money, which went to Ener1 subsidiary EnerDel, aimed to promote renewable energy storage battery technology for electrical grid use.”

Today, Ener1 announced it was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Not too surprising. I just stepped away from an opportunity as a director of engineering at a utility scale photovoltaic manufacturer. In one of the interviews, I got to the straight story. "Basically we're venture capital funded and if we don't get below the price of chinese PV in a year, were done. Close the doors, turn off the lights". Very much like Solyndra.

Sounded a little risky to me, a little too stressful for this point in my life. And the drive sucked. Emailed back and said, no thanks, let's keep in touch.

Originally Posted by Rip'nStick

Not too surprising. I just stepped away from an opportunity as a director of engineering at a utility scale photovoltaic manufacturer. In one of the interviews, I got to the straight story. "Basically we're venture capital funded and if we don't get below the price of chinese PV in a year, were done. Close the doors, turn off the lights". Very much like Solyndra.

Sounded a little risky to me, a little too stressful for this point in my life. And the drive sucked. Emailed back and said, no thanks, let's keep in touch.

And that's the exact kind of company that Obama will throw $100,000,000 at. Kiss it goodbye.

Originally Posted by Rip'nStick

You just got schooled by Armada and your comeback is, "I don't know what I am talking about but I believe in the magic invisible hand of the free market always".

That was just plain stupid.

That's the problem with the left. They think they are smart enough to overcome the laws of nature. candy is smart enough to know what he doesn't know. The invisible hand is 1,000,000 times smarter than evey liberal who thinks they can change the rules of the free market.

The arrogance and incompetence of people who think they are smarter than they are is destroying America.

AWESOME!

Laying American people off...
To get MORE tax dollars...
To support a foreign company....
To build cars for the 1%...

Makes sense - Gooo Barack!!!!


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/yet-...ts-in-layoffs/

“In another setback for President Obama’s clean energy loan programs, the recipient of more than a half-billion dollars in federal loans is laying off workers at their Delaware and California operations [emphasis added],” Bryan Tau of Politico reports.

Fisker Automotive, a California-based electric car company, is laying off an “undisclosed number” of staff to try to reserve enough capital in order to qualify for more federal help from the Department of Energy, according to a Delaware state development official.

Wait a minute. The Fisker Automotive?

That’s right, that Fisker Automotive: a company backed by an Al Gore-associated venture capital firm that was awarded a $529 million federal loan guarantee in April, 2010.

This is the same government-assisted automaker that outsourced manufacturing jobs to Finland because, “There was no contract manufacturer in the U.S. that could actually produce our vehicle,” the car company’s founder and namesake told ABC News. ”They don’t exist here.”

Now they are laying off workers in both Delaware and California.

Losing Count: Yet Another Govt-Backed ‘Clean Energy’ Initiative Begins Laying off its Workforce


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/losi...its-workforce/



How many billons in crony capitalist campaign pay offs will it take for you lefties to finally turn on Obama? here's another $400,000,000.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-electric-cars

With a $4 million grant from ARPA–e, the Envia technology builds on work done at Argonne National Laboratory

Brought to you by the same FEDRUL GUBBERMENT organization that brought you the internet - probably the single largest driver of ecnonomic growth in history.

As Armada said above, nuclear energy is probably the best example of why pure free market zealotry is stupid. It would have been completely impossible to develop nuclear energy as a private business - and even if it were possible, would you really want that?

Dumbdumb Tard, there is no list of failures that you can present that would change my mind. Just like in pure research, 99/100 ideas fail. You still fund all 100 because you don't know which are going to be succesful. But that 1 idea that succeeds can easily pay for all the failures. Now that this field is approaching the commercialization phase, the ideas are more expensive, but the same principle applies.

A very similar thing happened in nuclear energy at the beginning - many (government) organizations had separate nuclear reactor development programs (US Army, US Navy, national labs, ...) and there were many reactor designs that were shelved. It would be foolish to claim those shelved programs were wasted money though.