Thread: Trucks vs SUV's & 4x4 vs AWD

Originally Posted by Wooster

I'd just like to point out that many 'real SUVs' do not have ground clearance that is appreciably better than the Outback. 9" is probably equal to or better than my '93 Explorer, which has never had any problems in deep snow.

Yup, my Xterra probably doesn't have a whole lot more clearance than that. But I guarantee you that it'll do a hell of a lot better pulling and pushing a trailer around in the snow. Further, off-road performance be it on logging "roads" or 4wd trails isn't even worth comparing. There's no substitute for a real 4lo in low traction situations. One can only assume that the OP is planning on getting into some of that shit this winter up in Montana.

Finally, this is TGR. Go big or go home is the mentality around here in case you hadn't noticed. You ski 175's with a 65mm waist? Nope. Me neither.

Originally Posted by Cruiser

Yup, my Xterra probably doesn't have a whole lot more clearance than that. But I guarantee you that it'll do a hell of a lot better pulling and pushing a trailer around in the snow.

A tiny snowmobile trailer though? Big deal. My guess is the Subaru would get it to most places and back and burn a hell of a lot gas doing it so if that is the goal I think it works. I agree that if you're pulling the trailer down jeep roads or towing a bigger multi place you'd want the SUV. Funniest shit to me is all the folks that use huge trucks to haul around tiny boats that could be pulled by a Ford Escort or less.

Originally Posted by Cruiser

Further, off-road performance be it on logging "roads" or 4wd trails isn't even worth comparing. There's no substitute for a real 4lo in low traction situations. One can only assume that the OP is planning on getting into some of that shit this winter up in Montana.

Completely agree that 4wd trail performance is not even remotely comparable. I'm less certain that 4lo makes that much difference in low traction situations compared to a manual Subaru with snows and a couple of limited slip diffs - albeit an open front diff. We don't have snows for the 4-Runner but the current Michelin LTX m/s2's are pretty good in the snow but still didn't do that much to impress me in 4-lo. Plus that shit is worthless for driving anywhere at speed. Without snows that thing would absolutely be stuck before the Subaru. With snows I'd really like to find out - I think it'd be close. There comes a certain point where the 'oh shit' factor probably keeps you from venturing into three feet of snow either way.

I don't know. Some of this stuff just comes down to what a guy likes and wants to own. If the dude really wants to go everywhere off road he needs a truck. Otherwise I think he has some more options.

Definitely avoid 2WD pickups, even with chains they're far worse on snowy roads than 4WD SUV's and Jeeps without chains, which have more even weight distribution. I passed several new 2WD Tundras with cables this winter than could barely climb even a slight grade, couldn't believe how much trouble they were having. And a fancy AWD BMW that couldn't get anywhere either, but that was probably due to tire choice.

Something we often don't talk/think about is wheelbase. If you're rockcrawling, a long wheelbase sucks balls. In virtually every other snow-related driving situation, a long wheelbase is $$$$. It's nice when you're pulling a trailer too.

Just throwing that out there.

Originally Posted by Mustonen

Something we often don't talk/think about is wheelbase. If you're rockcrawling, a long wheelbase sucks balls. In virtually every other snow-related driving situation, a long wheelbase is $$$$. It's nice when you're pulling a trailer too.

Just throwing that out there.

Ah. You're right. Definitely something to watch out for, then. I don't intend on doing any rock crawling. So, does that mean a Jeep Wrangler isn't the best for towing, then? I went to Carmax the other day to get a feel for different rides at one place. Carmax wants a freaking fortune for old cars, though, so I prolly won't be buying there. For trucks, I actually really liked the Chevy Colorado Z71 and the Nissan Frontier, but they might be a bit light in the rear being trucks. For SUV's, I liked the FJ Cruiser (hella expensive tho - but then again I was at Carmax), the Pathfinder, and the Xterra. Seems like the Pathfinder has a much nicer interior for not much more money used. I looked at some Tahoe/Yukons, but geez they're huge and way bigger than what I'd ever need. I'm single with no kids, so interior room isn't much of an issue for me. The small trucks seemed plenty big for me. I'm 6'0, and most vehicles I looked at had plenty of head and leg room with the exception of the 4-Runner. I think I like the old 90's ones a lot more than the new one. The new one seemed so much bigger on the outside, yet kinda claustrophobic on the inside.

It's too bad GM doesn't make a real body-on-frame 4x4 the size of the Blazer/Jimmy anymore. Ford's talking about a future Bronco, which would be badass, but no final word on that yet. All of Ford/GM's small and midsize SUV's seem to be primarily FWD, with AWD but no 4x4 available. Am I missing something?

Glad I have lots of time to think about. Now the BIG question is do I sell my baby (my 2005 CTS-V) or just let it hibernate for the winter? Haha. I've driven it in the snow plenty, and it does great for a high power, RWD car, but it can still get kinda squirrely sometimes. Oh man, big changes are a-coming for me. Really getting stoked about being up there! I may visit the mountains a lot, but I'm still a total Winter jong when it comes to actually living in it.Thanks for all the help and advice.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

Am I missing something?

Our 2003 4-Runner has 140,000 miles on it. We bought it with 20k. I'm going to list the repairs that have been done since new excluding maintenance items like batteries, tires, pads, serpentine belt, oil etx. My guess is you'd have the same luck with an FJ. That is why these things are pricey.

Sunroof Leak at 60k (only repair ever done by anyone other than myself)
Front Rotors at 120k
Front Brake Caliper
Front Axles because of torn cv boots
A/C Relay
Serpentine Belt Tensioner/Pulley

I'm 6'2" and about 205 and I find out 2003 4- Runner to be downright roomy inside in every dimension especially when compared to our Outback.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

Ah. You're right. Definitely something to watch out for, then. I don't intend on doing any rock crawling. So, does that mean a Jeep Wrangler isn't the best for towing, then?

Of course it isn't the best, though it'd probably work fine. I wouldn't base a buying decision solely on that, but it makes a very noticeable difference in stability @ speed on snow covered roads. That wrangler will swap ends pretty quick if things get dicey.

Just for the conversation sake, a '93 Explorer does not qualify as a "Real SUV". I agree with Cruiser. Unless you are just going to be riding paved roads, a subie is NOT the answer.

I routinely go places in the FJ that a Subie could not even think about getting to, and that is just by keeping it in 2WD. When the shit hits the fan, the Locking Rear Diff and the TORQUE is what saves your ass.

I am not talking rock crawling. I am talking about camping spots, etc that we go in the summer that the hippy Lesbos in their Forresters cannot even think of. Add in water crossings, even if only 112" to 15" deep and I feel a lot safer in the heavier, more sure footed FJ than an Outback.

Stock FJ has about 9.7" of clearance, but that is very different than a Subaru when you factor in the other things. Add a cheap spacer lifter, and some bigger tires (ie 33") and you have upwards of 13" of clearance.

No Subaru's around on this mellow logging road day:









If you can't tell, I love my FJ...ha.

You should go test drive a GMC Yucon, Chevy Tahoe, Jeep Grand Cherokee. Ford Expodition

Really you should

I lean towards the Jeep Grand Cherokee with SELECT TRACK / Not Quadra Track

Nice. I'm so glad Toyota came out with the FJ (again). Seems like a real dude's ride. Just learned they're available in a manual too, unlike the 4Runner!

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

Just learned they're available in a manual too, unlike the 4Runner!

Yes, but keep in mind the manual FJ is full time 4WD (at least the 2007 and 2008, not sure on newer ones)...nice, but will cause worse gas mileage. I was getting 21 to 22 MPG before the lift and bigger tires, and now get about 19 to 20 MPG (not bad considering). With the ski racks pushed forward, I drop down to about 18.5 MPG. Damn Yakima...

I lucked into a '95 Suburban with a 350, some headers and a decent 4WD system and put some snow tires on it. It's not terribly stylish or decked out with all the creature comforts, but it had no problem cruising up and down Mt. Hood all winter in all conditions with everyone inside feeling plenty safe. They're not that bad on the used market, either ... although I have to admit, pulling over to shift the antiquated system into 4WD wasn't very sexy.

I think it offers 2 things you would really want - it'll do everything you list, and when you want to sell it, you will always find a buyer. Plenty safe, plenty bulletproof, easy to fix/get fixed ... and people are always asking me if I'm done with it.

Those are nice. what kinda gas mileage. I am getting 18 - 22 with my Grand Cherokee. Much below 18 starts getting pricy

your mom's available in manual

Originally Posted by PowTron

Just for the conversation sake, a '93 Explorer does not qualify as a "Real SUV".

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this one, given that the 1st generation Explorer pretty much defined the term "SUV".

And just for the sake of converstion, I too really liked the FJ Cruiser. That is, until I sat in one and found out just how horrible the interior is.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

It's too bad GM doesn't make a real body-on-frame 4x4 the size of the Blazer/Jimmy anymore. Ford's talking about a future Bronco, which would be badass, but no final word on that yet. All of Ford/GM's small and midsize SUV's seem to be primarily FWD, with AWD but no 4x4 available. Am I missing something?

If you hurry, you could probably pick up one of the last of the 2010 Explorers. It's the last year for body-on-frame construction, and also comes as a short bed pickup if you'd prefer that instead. Toyota's 4Runner is also a good option, as is the Chevy Trailblazer is you are willing to buy used. Hard to go wrong with a Grand Cherokee, although reliablility can be questionable.

As someone who's done a fair amount of four-wheeling (Rubicon a bunch of times, Sledgehammer, semi-spooky Moab stuff, Las Cruces, Farmington, etc), don't even consider an Explorer for anything worse than rutted dirt roads...older Toyotas or newer Jeeps are about your only truly serious wheeling options. Get an older Jeep and you'll have to put 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton Chevy running gear under it. Get a Samurai and you'll have to put Toyota pickup running gear under it. Get an IFS Toyota and you'll have to replace the front end with an '85 Toyota solid axle, a Jeep Dana 44 or FJ80 Land Cruiser front axle (steering arms are about to become available). Get an FJ80 and you'll need a lift, big tires, and a big wad of cash for all the gas you'll burn.

Probably the best one "out of the box" is a late-model Jeep Wrangler, though a $2,500 second-generation Toyota 4runner or pickup with about $2,000 of upgrades will eat a stock late-model Wrangler alive.

Someone has to jump in with the Audi allroad suggestion to get the Suby guys panties all wadded up.

Outstanding AWD
Height adjustable suspension
Twin turbo's so you can pass cars on the uphill while pulling a sled on a trailer.

Here's two six speeds selling for <$10k:

http://forums.quattroworld.com/class...sgs/7370.phtml

Originally Posted by jgb@etree

Someone has to jump in with the Audi allroad suggestion to get the Suby guys panties all wadded up.

Outstanding AWD
Height adjustable suspension
Twin turbo's so you can pass cars on the uphill while pulling a sled on a trailer.

Here's two six speeds selling for <$10k:

http://forums.quattroworld.com/class...sgs/7370.phtml

Great suggestion, but as much as I love Audi's, it'd be unwise for me to have a German vehicle in my line of work. Often times I'm working out in the middle of nowhere, or in some podunk town hundreds of miles from the closest German car mechanic, so if I break down, I'm effed. That's why I bought my Caddy, my first American car ever. There's usually a GM dealership or someone who can work on my car no matter where I go, if ever need be. I wouldn't mind a Toyota/Nissan/Sub, though, since I can trust those much more than I could trust an Audi. I know Audi's can be great cars (my brother has had 2), but they can often have very quirky problems. You're right, though, jgb, a used Audi can be had cheap, and can be a great value, but I'd only want one if I was confined to the city more.

Originally Posted by Wooster

Toyota's 4Runner is also a good option, as is the Chevy Trailblazer is you are willing to buy used. Hard to go wrong with a Grand Cherokee, although reliablility can be questionable.

A Trailblazer. That's not a bad idea! I just learned that there were actually a few available with traditional 4hi/4lo, while others had full time 4wd, and a locking diff was an option, too. They have pretty decent interiors, too.

I just saw this video, and while impressed, I do question it's objectivity since it's probably made by GM or Eaton. I guess it does show how much worse open differentials can be, though!

Not sure what your price range is, so hard to make a recommendation that would be perfect for you, but something you should look into is a used VW Touareg - huge depreciation. Full time 4WD with 4hi and 4lo, locking center diff, optional locking rear diff, amazing 4WD system, optional adjustable air suspension, optional heated steering wheel (once you have it, can't live without it). I can't get the thing stuck with some good tires. Engine options on used ones include V6, V8, V10 TDI (don't get if you don't want really expensive repairs), or V6 TDI (probably the best choice if you can find one you like/can afford).

I really like the Toureg, but barely EVER see em on the road. I saw three in one day last summer - in Palm Beach, FL, no less.

That said, I'm assuming that the same reliabilty concerns the OP mentioned re: Audi's pretty much excludes any VAG car.

Solid suggestion though.

I agree. The Toureg could be a hugely capable vehicle and a great handling SUV, but just like the Audi, I'd have concerns about breaking down out in BFE with one. I went ahead and looked 'em up anyway, because the right deal could entice me. I did a nationwide search on autotrader.com and carmax for a 4x4 with a diesel. Not even one available. There's a handful with a V8, but they're really far away and actually pricey. It seems like the 4x4's retained their value much better than their 2-wheel drive counterparts. Several V10's available, but the potential maintenance of that things scare me. Great suggestion, anyway. Yours looks great!

2nd the advice to skip the manual FJ. Full time 4WD is not desirable for several reasons, wear and tear, mileage, etc. Plus the mileage difference between the manual and auto is not nearly what it used to be.

If i didn't prefer a pickup bed i'd be all over the FJ automatic...

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

I did a nationwide search on autotrader.com and carmax for a 4x4 with a diesel. Not even one available.

AWD, diesel, V6 yields 270 some odd results. Mostly newer.

Originally Posted by AustinFromSA

I did a nationwide search on autotrader.com and carmax for a 4x4 with a diesel. Not even one available. There's a handful with a V8, but they're really far away and actually pricey. It seems like the 4x4's retained their value much better than their 2-wheel drive counterparts. Several V10's available, but the potential maintenance of that things scare me.

Do not walk, but RUN from the V10 if you look @ Toureg's seriously. They're problematic, and it's VERY hard to find someone who understands the engine & knows how to maintain it properly.

Maybe an 05+ Grand Cherokee CRD if you want a decent sized SUV w/ a diesel?

Sounds like you know this. But, I'd stay away from german cars. I LOVE GERMAN CARS. I've owned an old audi, and when it worked, it was the tits, quattro, five speed, amazing. However, the comparable cost of maintenance after the vehicle is out of warranty is insane. You might get lucky and find a reliable one, you might not, but if you don't the costs of maintaining are just so much higher than american cars or even most japanese costs.

I'm a wrangler owner. It's a manual. Selectable 2 / 4hi / 4lo. Simply put. It's a beast. Its bone stock and yet it can handle some seriously dicey shit off road, spent a lot of time down in left hand canyon in boulder, again no mods, and it was flawless. Snow is flawless (again stock crappy tires too) Four doors, plenty of room in the back. Will tow pretty well (obviously not what a big pick up will) but a sled, boat, no problem. It has a million upgrade available. Anyone can fix em.

It was between an fj and a wrangler for me. Back doors and better pricing incentives sold me on the wrangler.