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  1. #1
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    Pronation Issues

    I am excessively duck footed and my feet constantly rub against the chainstay. I also put much of my pressure on the outside of the pedals with very little wear on the inside. This also makes me go through cleats much quicker.

    What are my options for resolving this. I was thinking about using my custom footbeds from my ski boots, but not sure if thats a good idea or not. I heard that either wedges under the cleat or under the footbed also work.

    Anybody with similar issues? What do you suggest for a solution?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrryde View Post
    What do you suggest for a solution?
    Get rid of the xc racer boy clipless setup and go with platforms

  3. #3
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    Superfeet Yellow are The Awesome for road cycling shoes. I've never used 'em, but I've heard Black works for clipless mountain biking shoes.


  4. #4
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    I'm confused.

    Do you pronate (feet "fall inward") like so:



    Or are you duck footed (external rotation), like so:



    Or do you do both at the same time?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikkin View Post
    Superfeet Yellow ...are The Awesome...I've never used 'em, but I've heard...
    I found this funny.
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  6. #6
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    why not try the ski boots footbeds and see how they work for you?


  7. #7
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    Custom footbeds- if of a low volume nature-can work well in cycling shoes.

    The fit of a bike shoe and ski boot are similar enough that the orthotic/footbed/insert may transfer well. But note: putting your fancy ski boot orthotic into your cycling shoe will prematurely age it. It will take a beating. Some materials- like cork and EVA/soft Porons will adsorb crud and dirt. Even orthotic topsheets that claim to be "non adsorbent" hold water and dirt and are difficult to clean.

    That said, for a few years I was taking my ski boot orthotic and transferring to my bike shoe. I eventually made one dedicated for my Sidis.

    If you are going to use you ski boot orthotic in your bike shoe, ask your bootfitter for a "slight medial forefoot varus wedge". This will avert a common forefoot valgus (pronation) that can cause knee pain. Anyway, it will make you a better rider.

    /also awaiting an answer to Monkeywrenchmoose's question
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywrenchMoose View Post






    These are my feet
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrryde View Post
    I am excessively duck footed and my feet constantly rub against the chainstay. I also put much of my pressure on the outside of the pedals with very little wear on the inside. This also makes me go through cleats much quicker.
    If you have severe external rotation, foot beds are not going to solve the problem and I doubt they will do anything to reduce the symptoms. Here is what I can think of to make it so you can ride your bike:
    - Buy flats and good 5.10 shoes (this will still be a very secure connection between feet and pedals.)
    - Move your feet forward on the pedal (this will pull your heel away from the chain stay, so you can pedal with out it hitting. It will be less efficient and may even create other problems up the kinesiological chain if you pedal a lot.)


    Does that make sense?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

  10. #10
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    You can always borrow my flats if you want to try them.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikkin View Post
    Superfeet Yellow are The Awesome for road cycling shoes. I've never used 'em, but I've heard Black works for clipless mountain biking shoes.
    Quote Originally Posted by skiing-in-jackson View Post
    I butchered your quote as follows and found it funny: "Superfeet Yellow ...are The Awesome...I've never used 'em, but I've heard..."
    To clarify, I've used the yellow in my road shoes and think they're the awesome. I've never used the black insoles.

    That said, I definitely defer to the foot docs in the thread.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywrenchMoose View Post
    If you have severe external rotation, foot beds are not going to solve the problem and I doubt they will do anything to reduce the symptoms. Here is what I can think of to make it so you can ride your bike:
    - Buy flats and good 5.10 shoes (this will still be a very secure connection between feet and pedals.)
    - Move your feet forward on the pedal (this will pull your heel away from the chain stay, so you can pedal with out it hitting. It will be less efficient and may even create other problems up the kinesiological chain if you pedal a lot.)


    Does that make sense?
    I've been riding clipless pedals for over a decade and I don't have any pain issues. The only issue I have is the rub on the chainstay and the excessive pedal and cleat wear. The only reason I am addressing the issue is because someone I was riding with yesterday said if I dont address it, it will become a problem.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrryde View Post
    I've been riding clipless pedals for over a decade and I don't have any pain issues. The only issue I have is the rub on the chainstay and the excessive pedal and cleat wear. The only reason I am addressing the issue is because someone I was riding with yesterday said if I dont address it, it will become a problem.
    Got it. You have no pain, just heels hitting chain stay? I replace the word "symptoms" in my above post with "issue" (meaning chain stay rub). That should clarify my post.


    The person who said "it" will become a problem, what did they say "it' was?


    Oh and by any chance do you ride a Santa Cruz Heckler? They had a problem with wide chain stays and normal feet hitting them.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

  14. #14
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    I would think that restricting movement would cause more issues than anything. I'm actually pigeon toed, but for some reason, my heals turn in when on the bike. On bikes with wide stays like the Bullit and Heckler, I completely rubbed the paint off...though I never noticed while I was riding. My advice is to wrap your chainstays and don't worry about it. Rubbin's ridin', son.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikkin View Post

    That said, I definitely defer to the foot docs in the thread.
    No need to do that. Riders need to do what is comfortable and works.

    Sorry for butchering your quote.

    Many individuals respond well to off the shelf (as they are known in the foot field) inserts.

    In repeated clinical trials, off the shelf inserts helped in reducing foot pain and healing plantar fasciitis as well as their $300-$500 counterparts. OTS inserts also work well in applications where there is adequate time for the foot to "break in" (accommodate) the inserts. I chose "break in" in the last sentence as the intrinsic foot muscles don't like change and that's how your foot gets used to a new footbed/insert/orthotic- by breaking you.

    I make my living selling the $300+ counterparts. The only real benefit to a custom footbed- besides being 100% custom to your foot- is a vastly reduced break in period as the foot needs to do less "accommodating" to an arch/heel cup/structure that's a foreign shape.

    Superfeet gave me a few pairs of thin low volume samples to evaluate. They were nice. I spread them around and one pal still has them in his hockey skates. Our shop currently sells Sole inserts.

    Your foot is very accommodative. It will conform to almost anything. Off the shelf inserts work well for feet that are flexible. Just be aware of the break time before your foot is happy.

    Break in times for various inserts/orthotics are contingent upon several factors, the most important of which is foot flexibility. If your foot is flexible, you can wear almost anything and after X period of time, your foot will be supported and feel great. If you have a more rigid foot, it will take some time and effort (pain?) to break in an off the shelf insert. Also, for rigid high arched feet, most off the shelf inserts have an arch that is too low & short.

    The chronically low arches in OTS inserts can be somewhat mitigated by choosing an insert that is too long for your foot and making sure the arch is the right length/high enough for you particular anatomy.

    Without actually seeing you on the bike, it is difficult to tell what you need. Did we ever find out what riding situation this is for?

    For all but a few rides, I'm thinking about ditching cleats for flats this year- but that's another topic.
    Last edited by skiing-in-jackson; 04-20-2011 at 07:26 AM. Reason: additional info...
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywrenchMoose View Post
    - Buy flats and good 5.10 shoes (this will still be a very secure connection between feet and pedals.)
    As a lifelong clipless rider who spent 3 seasons riding nothing but flats on every bike, I say the above advice is:

    - Inadequate for people who know how to pedal and aren't afraid of being clipped in.

    - Adequate for those who seek the latest Look Rugged and DHable fad, however!

    Flats & 5.10s do not solve problems. They create problems: you have to buy new shit just to check out whether they work for you, which leads to the typical Justify My Expenditure (a/k/a "review") summary suggesting it's a huge bonus for every riding situation because now I'm not connected to my bike and am not afraid of breaking or spraining an ankle when I crash.

    But at least you won't be susceptible to the jeering of the Toughguy Wannabes who call you a lycra-wearing leg-shaving pussy for riding clipless.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post
    As a lifelong clipless rider who spent 3 seasons riding nothing but flats on every bike, I say the above advice is:

    - Inadequate for people who know how to pedal and aren't afraid of being clipped in.

    - Adequate for those who seek the latest Look Rugged and DHable fad, however!

    Flats & 5.10s do not solve problems. They create problems: you have to buy new shit just to check out whether they work for you, which leads to the typical Justify My Expenditure (a/k/a "review") summary suggesting it's a huge bonus for every riding situation because now I'm not connected to my bike and am not afraid of breaking or spraining an ankle when I crash.

    But at least you won't be susceptible to the jeering of the Toughguy Wannabes who call you a lycra-wearing leg-shaving pussy for riding clipless.
    Yep. You caught me, you old fossil, you. My agenda is to subconsciously push the benefits of flat pedals on unsuspecting forum users by disguising said "benefits" in the form of seemingly sincere and practical advice.

    My suggestion of flat pedals had nothing to do with the "DH look" fad. It was suggested as a solution to his heels hitting the chain stay. With flat pedals he will be able to position his foot so the pedal is resting more under the midfoot, thereby pulling his heel forward and away from the stays while still allowing him to rest his foot in his natural externally rotated position. While you can move the cleats on clipless shoes fore and aft, you can not do it to such a great extent as with flats.

    Please don't turn this into a flats vs clipless drivel debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrryde View Post
    I am excessively duck footed and my feet constantly rub against the chainstay. I also put much of my pressure on the outside of the pedals with very little wear on the inside. This also makes me go through cleats much quicker.

    Anybody with similar issues? What do you suggest for a solution?
    I'm pretty duck-footed myself, and noticed a lot of the same things in the past couple years. I never really put much thought into it, and really I couldn't tell I was doing it, but the evidence was always there. I just chalked it up to my weird feet and the fact that I'm a total hack on my bike.

    That being said, I switch between clipless and flats with 5.10's at least a couple of times a year, depending on how I feel that day about being connected to my bike, or the level of terrifiedness I'm feeling about breaking or spraining my ankle when I crash. And I will crash. But it doesn't seem to matter what shoes I'm wearing, or pedals I'm clipped or not clipped into - I still hit the frickin' chainstay. But goddamn, I love riding bikes...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeywrenchMoose View Post
    Yep. You caught me, you old fossil, you. My agenda is to subconsciously push the benefits of flat pedals on unsuspecting forum users by disguising said "benefits" in the form of seemingly sincere and practical advice.

    My suggestion of flat pedals had nothing to do with the "DH look" fad. It was suggested as a solution to his heels hitting the chain stay. With flat pedals he will be able to position his foot so the pedal is resting more under the midfoot, thereby pulling his heel forward and away from the stays while still allowing him to rest his foot in his natural externally rotated position. While you can move the cleats on clipless shoes fore and aft, you can not do it to such a great extent as with flats.

    Please don't turn this into a flats vs clipless drivel debate.
    You can achieve the same with where/how you fasten your cleat to your shoe. What you said there is pretty well irrelevant in my experience, which is why I mentioned my experience. You have a theoretical larger platform with flats, but not many of those extreme locations (i.e. outside the realm of where you can adjust a cleat on a clipped-in setup) are functional for pedaling or for standing while descending. They're theoretical locations that can work when the bike and you are sitting still.

    This is my experience: inboard heel/duckfoot stance is a matter of rotation at the ball of the foot, which is accommodated equally by being clipped-in or by riding flats.

    But you're the one telling him to buy $50-150 worth of pedal and $100-150 worth of shoe for an experiment, eh?

  20. #20
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    When I said go flat it had nothing to do with cost. Spend $85 on a pair of Specialized LoPro Mags and grab your light hikers and go have fun. I have a pair of Time DH shoes and 5 10's and prefer my Keen Targhee Mid. This doesn't have to be so expensive if you don't want it to be. Since I bailed on clipless a few years ago my ankles and knees are much happier parts of me when I ride more than 30 minutes.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post
    But you're the one telling him to buy $50-150 worth of pedal and $100-150 worth of shoe for an experiment, eh?
    Yep. All in the hope that he doesn't know how to pedal and decides to sell said lightly used experimental gear for cheap on TGR, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post
    You can achieve the same with where/how you fasten your cleat to your shoe. What you said there is pretty well irrelevant in my experience, which is why I mentioned my experience. You have a theoretical larger platform with flats, but not many of those extreme locations (i.e. outside the realm of where you can adjust a cleat on a clipped-in setup) are functional for pedaling or for standing while descending. They're theoretical locations that can work when the bike and you are sitting still.
    I never said it was ideal and did admit that hit wouldn't be efficient and may cause more problems else where in the body. My solution was posed in response to the OP saying he had extreme external rotation. (However, the actual wording was "excessively duck footed". He then went on to say that his feet closely mimicked the picture posted.) I took all this into account and deduced that cleat positioning and degree of float of clipless pedals could not compensate for the amount of external rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post
    This is my experience: inboard heel/duckfoot stance is a matter of rotation at the ball of the foot, which is accommodated equally by being clipped-in or by riding flats.
    Perhaps some external rotation can be dealt with by cleat placement. However, if the OP has the degree of external rotation as the picture posted, forcing the foot via cleat placement into a position (more internally rotated/pigeon toed) that will clear the chain stays and pedaling like that will cause problems up the kinematic chain.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingleberry View Post
    pissing in a sink? fucking rookies. Shit in an oven, then you'll be pro.

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