Stuck binding screws? - Use a Hand Impact Driver

[angrysasquatch]

I was in a jam one time, needed to pull a stuck screw to ski the following day, didn't have a soldering iron and shops were all closed.

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

All of these "home remedies" are cracking me up...

... Stop the problem before it starts. Don't use epoxy to mount bindings!

[XXX-er]

thats ^^ rather simplistic to the question asked in this thread, In an imperfect world what if you buy a ski used and the binding screws won't budge? Maybe you don't know what was used to mount the binding or maybe the binding has been mounted several times and the screw is is a little fluffed or it just won't come for whatever reason ... heat and maybe an impact driver

Also what if you need the extra holding power of slowset?

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

thats ^^ rather simplistic to the question asked in this thread, In an imperfect world what if you buy a ski used and the binding screws won't budge? Maybe you don't know what was used to mount the binding or maybe the binding has been mounted several times and the screw is is a little fluffed or it just won't come for whatever reason ... heat and maybe an impact driver

Also what if you need the extra holding power of slowset?

The ONLY reason that a binding screw (that doesn't have a stripped head) would ever get stuck in a ski is if someone used epoxy to mount it.
And no, using epoxy won't gain you any more holding power. That's an urban myth. It's the screw's threads that provide the pull out strength, not the glue. All epoxy does is bond the screw threads to the core material which prevents it from spinning back out. So if your screws are spinning back out, you have a problem with the hole/threads. And epoxy is merely a band-aid fix.

[GeezerSteve]

The epoxy haters come out again. Zeno's pull-out test findings (originally published in TT) suggest that epoxy does indeed add strength to a mount. More to the point, epoxy provides a better seal. Here's one of zeno's pics, typical of what I've seen when Titebond II/III or other allegedly "waterproof" glue (Titebond II in pic) is used for PNW ski mounts:

[gregL]

I love epoxy. Also tapping.

[XXX-er]

The ONLY reason that a binding screw (that doesn't have a stripped head) would ever get stuck in a ski is if someone used epoxy to mount it.
And no, using epoxy won't gain you any more holding power. That's an urban myth. It's the screw's threads that provide the pull out strength, not the glue. All epoxy does is bond the screw threads to the core material which prevents it from spinning back out. So if your screws are spinning back out, you have a problem with the hole/threads. And epoxy is merely a band-aid fix.

A stuck screw for whatever reason is still stuck so use heat/easy out/drill the head off and I see a binding falling off a ski as a much bigger problem than a stuck binding screw

epoxy + FG can also fix stripped threads/core material, yeah I could go thru the hassle of a helicoil or whatever but epoxy is what I have kicking around, an epoxy repaired 4hole tele mount has lasted me 5 yrs which is a pretty permanent fix maybe more than a band aid so it works in fact I have never had epoxy fail , the bonding of the screw to the threads is a just part of the equation to deal with .

like the picts show screws rust & cores rot which doesn't happen with epoxy

[GeezerSteve]

I have never had a problem extracting a screw from a tapped + epoxy mount. The logical inference to draw from Zeno's tests -- which show that tapping + epoxy = greater pullout strength than other combos -- is that the epoxy resin mixes with the ski core material to create a stronger female thread in the core, and tapping seems to help the epoxy mix into the core material and/or requires less torque to get the binding down flat on the ski deck with a good screw/core purchase.

For awhile I switch to the 3M marine adhesive but I switched back to long set epoxy (West System) cuz the 3M stuff is a mess to work with and doesn't seem to soak into the ski core.

[Island Bay]

if you got use of a drill at a BC hut but no heat what you can do is put the drill bit in the chuck BACKWARDS and run the shank of the drill bit at high speed against the screw head which will make enough heat to break the epoxy bond on the screw

+1 on this methode:
3mm bit backward in the chuck; 5 seconds at moderate revs; Bob's your uncle.

I like that extractor tool, NB!

[Gunder]

If a screw is stuck and your starting to strip the head, try a new screw driver. The tips wear out, and worn out tips will strip screws when a new screwdriver will often break the same stripped screw loose.

Fore really stubborn screws I have a set of Wera chisel drives. They are designed so that you can first strike the end of the screwdriver with a hammer to shock loosen a stubborn screw. If that doesn't work, they allow you to attach a ¼ drive ratchet handle to get extra torque.

[neck beard]

It is cold weather backcountry binding removal with lightweight small tools that puts me off epoxy. All I want is waterproofing, which could be easily achieved by using silicon in and around the hole. When I removed a binding that had a rusty part and had left stains on a white top sheet, I found that a lamination of glue around the hole between the topsheet and flat base of the binding kept moisture away from the hole.

I might be reading it wrong, but strength benefits aside, this photo shows the waterproofing benefit of glue in a mount. So what ever you do, use waterproof glue. I assume that was obvious anyway.

[Muggydude]

A very large phillips screwdriver (i.e. 2 feet long) does wonders. Course that wouldn't be helpful in the backcountry, nor do most people have one like that. Bought one from a contractor buddy who was selling some old tools.

[GeezerSteve]

Glue that is advertised as "waterproof" often isn't when used on a steel screw. See pic of rusty screws installed with Titebond II in prior post.

If I'm in the backcountry, I'm on tech bindings so I want the extra pullout strength, especially for the toe. FTR, I helicoil all my tech binding mounts for increased pullout strength and ease of field replacement. I've never had, nor heard of, a screw stuck in a helicoil.

[neck beard]

What ever the case, water certainly got to those screws. Very much so. A wider sample set would be nice as they seem extremely rusted. Is that degree of rusting happening to every non-epoxy mount? If yes, then it perhaps isn't much of a problem as wouldn't non-metal topsheet pullouts be a far more common event with that amount of rusting? Since pullouts are not that common, I assume that most skis are mounted with epoxy, or, most skis are mounted with glue that keeps water out better than was used in that photo.

Backcountry: I'm yet to pull any screws out ascending or descending. But I seldom crash, ski mostly gently in soft snow, and don't weigh much. Perhaps something awkward happening with a heavy pack on the ascent may pull out a toe piece.

Shits getting too workshop OCD for me. I just drill, glue, screw, ski.

[galibier_numero_un]

Me ... I'm CDO (I like the letters to be alphabetized). I'll also usually do a quick mount (drill, glue, ski). Over the Summer (after confirming I like the mount point), there's plenty of time to obsess & install threaded inserts when I'm bored.

I saw a pair of skis at my local shop that was destroyed by moisture. It was actually mushy. The mechanic said mildew formed and the core had totally rotted out. No idea what kind of sealant was used (if any) on the original mount.

This thread definitely makes me want to do my Summer thing on a pair of skis I used Titebond on this winter. It's slated for a threaded insert install anyway.

... Thom

[tuco]

I see a binding falling off a ski as a much bigger problem than a stuck binding screw

Pretty much sums it up right there.

[GeezerSteve]

Is that degree of rusting happening to every non-epoxy mount?

I've seen rusted screws on most PNW touring skis in my experience with the exception of a few mounts with 3M 5200 marine adhesive. ("Every" is a high standard. Some skis don't get skied much. Skis skied only in cold weather might not get much exposure to water.) Pretty sure I've seen rusted screws on every PNW touring ski mounted with Titebond II or III. Of course, time would be a factor re the degree of rusting.

If yes, then it perhaps isn't much of a problem as wouldn't non-metal topsheet pullouts be a far more common event with that amount of rusting? Since pullouts are not that common. . . .

Tech toe pullouts and tele binding (non-HH) are fairly common. Numerous times I have removed alpine bindings held on by screws that were nearly falling out. Alpine binding don't have anywhere near the pullout forces of tech toes or some tele bindings.

[XXX-er]

A very large phillips screwdriver (i.e. 2 feet long) does wonders. Course that wouldn't be helpful in the backcountry, nor do most people have one like that. Bought one from a contractor buddy who was selling some old tools.

you want a PZ3 b cuz binding screws are NOT phillips which might be why screw heads strip, i pack an extension and PZ3 bit but i don't see a need for the 2' long bit

as a small AZN man I have never pulled out a binding screw however I did blow up a rad heel piece which was fixed on a pro bono basis by that azn lawyer

[Muggydude]

I know, I use pozi in all other cases. But the giant phillips fits very well (no idea what size the tip is). And it has gotten out screws that I could not get out any other way with a normal, quality pozi tip.

The leverage you get is what does it

[Gunder]

I mount a LOT of skis every season. Both for myself as well as having a who's-who of pro's use my set up. So here is what I have learned over the years.

Using wood glue / binding glue supplied by SVST / Binding manufatures only acts as lube when installing the screws. It does NOTHING to seal the hole from moisture.

Expoxy does nothing to increase the holding power of the screw in the ski. Using the proper size drill bit has way more effect on the screws holding power. Generally a hard wood core, with lots of metal will require a large diameter bit where as a foam core ski will require a narrow diameter bit to give the same holding power. Check the specs from your skis mfg.

Only tap skis with with metal or very hard wood cores, or if installying inserts. Tapping a foam core, or a ski with a soft wood core actually decreases holding strength.

It's impossible to keep mositure away from the screw threads. Even with expoxy, you will see rusted screws after a lot of days on the skis. As you ski, the ski flexes, and causes the binding holes to expand / contract and mositure will eventually make its way in. Best remedy is to make sure you use the proper drill bit and periodically check that the screws have proper torque.

Counterskinking the screw holes, makes a big difference. It allows for a flusher binding mount, and a flusher binding mount = tighter.

All of the pros only use the typical binding / wood glue when mounting. They are changing out skis fast enough, where moisture really is not going to be an issue. Rarely do any of them have any issues with a screw pulling out. As a ski ages, it looses holding strenght on the screws.

Personally, I mount all of my skis with inserts, mostly because it is way more effecient for me to travel with 2 pairs of skis and one pair of bindings that way. As far as inserts go, I found its way better to use a slow-set marine grade expoy than JB Weld. We all know JB weld is strong as shit, but its too thick to use for a binding mount, as it will actually cause the top sheet to get pushed up when installing the inserts or screws.

Finally make sure you always use the proper drill bit, as well as screwdriver; posi-drive for binding screws, or the proper philips if using inserts, and use a torque limiting screwdriver so you dont over torque- thus reducing holding power when installing. Also, not all screwdrivers are equal. Ditch your cheap no-name screw drivers, or your more recent chinese made craftsman. A high-end American made, or High-quality Euro screwdriver will make a big difference. I.E. Wera, PBSwiss, Felo, White, Williams all make really really good screwdrivers.

Hope this is usefull for some of you.

[Chickenfish]

For backcountry removal of epoxied screws; add a blow torch style lighter to your repair kit, insert screwdriver into screw then use lighter to heat shaft of screwdriver.

[tuco]

I know, I use pozi in all other cases. But the giant phillips fits very well (no idea what size the tip is). And it has gotten out screws that I could not get out any other way with a normal, quality pozi tip.

The leverage you get is what does it

Snap- on makes a pozi tres that has positive tip engagement(doesn't want to cam out of screwhead) and also has a nut at the top of the shaft/bottom of handle that you can put a wrench on.

[GeezerSteve]

Expoxy does nothing to increase the holding power of the screw in the ski.

* * *

Tapping a foam core, or a ski with a soft wood core actually decreases holding strength.

FTR, Zeno's pullout test suggests otherwise on both points.

[Gunder]

FTR, Zeno's pullout test suggests otherwise on both points.

Gota link? I'd love to see that... As experience says otherwise.

[GeezerSteve]

Does your experience include controlled pullout tests?

Zeno's full test results were on the original TT. I believe he did a second batch of tests. He occasionally posts on TGR so maybe he'll see this and chime in. I can't find a link now that the original TT has been dead for awhile. Zeno had a pretty good sampling in this tests, numerous skis w/ different cores (including foam [Atomic], I recall), tapped vs. untapped, "waterproof" wood glue vs. epoxy. Of all the combos tested, tapped + epoxy required the highest pullout forces to achieve failure.

As I said above, my theory re tapping + epoxy = stronger is that cutting threads into the core with a tap enhances the opportunity for the epoxy to penetrate the core material, thus forming a female threaded core/resin plug. Tapping also allows the installer to use less torsional force to screw the binding down flat on the ski deck.

When I read Zeno's tests I was skeptical and performed my own, less formal, bench tests in a half dozen skis, some wood core, some foam core and even a hemlock 2x4. Although it my tests did not have the controls of Zeno's, my testing persuaded me that tapped holes resulted in a stronger connection in both wood and Atomic foam cores.

Re rust: I have seen a bit of rust on some epoxied screws, but nothing like the extent of rust I've seen on screws installed with alleged "waterproof" glue, e.g., Titebond II or III. Again, I'm talking about PNW touring skis, which are frequently exposed to moisture. Maybe this doesn't matter much for alpine mounts used only in cold weather when there's not much ambient moisture.