Teachers Unions Explained

[iceclimb]

In this case "Management" would be the School Board, operating with feedback from the PTA and the parents of the Students.

Bwaahh ha haaaaa haaaa. Not sure about your school district, but I've attended a bunch of school board meetings...

1. The people on the board are in the top .5% of the wealthiest people of the community...
2. Attendance from the community is non existent, as in no one attends.
3. PTA? There is one of those.... not in our community.

So while what you say may work in some communities... certainly not all of them. A LARGE percentage of this country just wants the kids educated, and doesn't want to participate in any way.

[johngenx]

I don't get all the hate for teacher's salaries. Any teachers I talked to from the States make peanuts. Is there a bunch of jurisdictions where they're getting wealthy?

If it's so awesome (giant pay cheque, short hours, lots of vacation) then why don't the whiners become teachers?

[Downbound Train]

Bwaahh ha haaaaa haaaa. Not sure about your school district, but I've attended a bunch of school board meetings...

1. The people on the board are in the top .5% of the wealthiest people of the community...
2. Attendance from the community is non existent, as in no one attends.
3. PTA? There is one of those.... not in our community.

So while what you say may work in some communities... certainly not all of them. A LARGE percentage of this country just wants the kids educated, and doesn't want to participate in any way.

People don't attend school board meetings because in the current system they are powerless. Government minions and union bosses look at parents as a pain in the ass to be dismissed.

I really don't know if there is such a thing as the PTA in most places any more. If there isn't, it's because they became powerless in the face of union run schools.

You have to imagine how things would CHANGE when the proper system is put in place.

Once people know thier opinion is being listened to, they will participate. Once the schoolboard knows the voters are back in the meetings, they'll do their jobs better. I really don't care who's on the school board as long as they are elected.

[iceclimb]

Ok.... I'll agree to that.. but let me ask you... because this happens in a bunch of places...

what if no one runs for school board?

[Downbound Train]

Ok.... I'll agree to that.. but let me ask you... because this happens in a bunch of places...

what if no one runs for school board?

ANARCHY!!!!!!!

Or the Mayor, Town Council, School Principal or town drunk is responsible??

I doubt that if there are enough kids to form a school, there wouldn't be a few parents on a power trip. That would stir things up just enough.

[iceclimb]

So what you describe is pretty much how the school I work in does it. The Principal does my reviews, but in the end all of that is board reviewed anyway. In Colorado teacher unions have almost no sway (yes, even when people do pay dues..). And Tenure will cease to have meanings in about 2 years. So.. all of this must make you happy....

However, You've got some good teachers who leave every year because we haven't had raises in about 5 years, and it doesn't look like we will for the next 5. So, we end up with good teachers leaving because either they can't afford it... or they can make better bank for less work in industry. It's not bad teachers underbidding, it's industry is so much more lucrative.... how do we deal with that?

[OSECS]

A LARGE percentage of this country just wants the kids educated, and doesn't want to participate in any way.

And therein lies the largest problem with our education system. If parents are not intimately involved in their childrens educational progress they will not, in most cases succeed as they would with strong parental involvement.

You cannot abdicate the education of your children.

[Downbound Train]

However, You've got some good teachers who leave every year because we haven't had raises in about 5 years, and it doesn't look like we will for the next 5. So, we end up with good teachers leaving because either they can't afford it... or they can make better bank for less work in industry. It's not bad teachers underbidding, it's industry is so much more lucrative.... how do we deal with that?

When individual teachers are allowed to make their case to a school board, at least they have a chance to get more money. Now a faceless union negotiates for them and pay is based on how long their warm body can occupy a class room.

The bad teachers are overpaid leaving less $$$ for the good ones.

Bottom line is, like in any line of work, if someone has talent which exceeds the ability of the employer to pay them what they are worth, they move on. It happens in EVERY business. You may lose some good teachers, but you will have the power to decide at a local level who you want to try and keep. You will also lose the bad teachers because you will have a choice of which teachers to hire and fire.

[Downbound Train]

So what you describe is pretty much how the school I work in does it. The Principal does my reviews, but in the end all of that is board reviewed anyway. In Colorado teacher unions have almost no sway (yes, even when people do pay dues..). And Tenure will cease to have meanings in about 2 years. So.. all of this must make you happy....

Does it make YOU happy? If you are a good teacher, it should right? You no longer have to be held back by the 60 year old douchebag that has sucked as a teacher for 25 years. New blood for the school and MERIT PAY! (Might work out better for the kids too - forgot about them )

Don't assume teacher pay will go down when the unions go away. The market is fair. There will be a lot of cost savings when collective bargaining douchebaggery is gone. Maybe you won't get to retire at 50 with a 90% pension for life but I'll bet the salary will be solid if not increase.

The pool of teaching talent will also shrink. I'll bet fewer entitlment seeking college kids will chose to be teachers if they know they no longer will get ridiculous benefits and will actually have to be good at their job to keep it. That will also drive up the price schools will have to pay for teachers.

[char]

Didn't WI teachers just lose collective bargaining and take an 8% pay cut?

[Hugh Conway]

Didn't WI teachers just lose collective bargaining and take an 8% pay cut?

They didn't lose collective bargaining, they just lost the ability to receive pay higher than the rate of inflation.

Because, you know, that's the way to get more good teachers.

[Downbound Train]

They didn't lose collective bargaining, they just lost the ability to receive pay higher than the rate of inflation.

Because, you know, that's the way to get more good teachers.

Among the changes the bill will make to collective bargaining, unions will be limited to bargaining over base wages and will not be able to negotiate new raises beyond the rate of inflation without a statewide referendum.

In addition, the bill requires that unionized workers re-vote every year on whether to continue allowing their union to represent them.
Under the bill, employers would no longer deduct union members’ dues from their pay checks. Instead, members would file dues separately. Furthermore, non-members do not have to pay agency fees — their version of dues — to receive the same benefits as those who pay the union.

Fair - Union members should have protection from the power of the Union too. Did you hear the one about the union member in Ohio who's husband ran for office? Her union dues were used to smear her and her husband in political ads. Why can a union confiscate your money and use it against you? Doesn't everyone have a right to work in a government job without being forced to give money to your political enemies?

[hafilax]

Among the changes the bill will make to collective bargaining, unions will be limited to bargaining over base wages and will not be able to negotiate new raises beyond the rate of inflation without a statewide referendum.

In addition, the bill requires that unionized workers re-vote every year on whether to continue allowing their union to represent them.
Under the bill, employers would no longer deduct union members’ dues from their pay checks. Instead, members would file dues separately. Furthermore, non-members do not have to pay agency fees — their version of dues — to receive the same benefits as those who pay the union.

Fair - Union members should have protection from the power of the Union too. Did you hear the one about the union member in Ohio who's husband ran for office? Her union dues were used to smear her and her husband in political ads. Why can a union confiscate your money and use it against you? Doesn't everyone have a right to work in a government job without being forced to give money to your political enemies?

Every point you've been trying to make has to do with corruption. All of your counter points take place in some kind of dream world.

What you described in green is a direct attempt to dissolve the union. Let's take away all of the unions bargaining power and then let the members vote on whether they want to be a part of it any more. That should be illegal.

The BC government tried to pull a similar stunt with our last teachers' strike. They declared it an essential service so that they couldn't picket.

The reason why a lot of unions have gone too far is because of the apathy of their members. This has allowed a few zealots to get the reigns. Change in the unions can come from within with a determined voice. Same as any other democratic process.

[farmguy]

Here are a few salaries I picked up on the news last night.
Bus drivers from Wisc.

Several are listed at making more than $100,00@yr
Some listed at $150,00@ yr, with $100,00 of that from overtime
If they receive a phone call while off work, say a notice that school will be late, closed, etc etc
they get 30 minutes of overtime........

And you wonder why people ELECTED someone who said he would try to fix the problem, and now he is doing what he said he would do.

[Downbound Train]

Every point you've been trying to make has to do with corruption. All of your counter points take place in some kind of dream world.

What you described in green is a direct attempt to dissolve the union. Let's take away all of the unions bargaining power and then let the members vote on whether they want to be a part of it any more. That should be illegal.

Actually the thing that should be illegal (and WAS prior to 1959) is the public employee union. Check it...


“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”

That wasn’t Newt Gingrich, or Ron Paul, or Ronald Reagan talking. That was George Meany -- the former president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O -- in 1955. Government unions are unremarkable today, but the labor movement once thought the idea absurd.

Public sector unions insist on laws that serve their interests -- at the expense of the common good.

The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create.

Government workers, however, don’t generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money. When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers. F.D.R. considered this “unthinkable and intolerable.”

Government collective bargaining means voters do not have the final say on public policy. Instead their elected representatives must negotiate spending and policy decisions with unions. That is not exactly democratic – a fact that unions once recognized.

George Meany was not alone. Up through the 1950s, unions widely agreed that collective bargaining had no place in government. But starting with Wisconsin in 1959, states began to allow collective bargaining in government.

The influx of dues and members quickly changed the union movement’s tune, and collective bargaining in government is now widespread. As a result unions can now insist on laws that serve their interests – at the expense of the common good.

Union contracts make it next to impossible to reward excellent teachers or fire failing ones. Union contracts give government employees gold-plated benefits – at the cost of higher taxes and less spending on other priorities. The alternative to Walker's budget was kicking 200,000 children off Medicaid.

Governor Walker’s plan reasserts voter control over government policy. Voters’ elected representatives should decide how the government spends their taxes.

More states should heed the A.F.L.-C.I.O. Executive Council’s 1959 advice: “In terms of accepted collective bargaining procedures, government workers have no right beyond the authority to petition Congress — a right available to every citizen.”[/

[iceclimb]

Does it make YOU happy? If you are a good teacher, it should right? You no longer have to be held back by the 60 year old douchebag that has sucked as a teacher for 25 years. New blood for the school and MERIT PAY! (Might work out better for the kids too - forgot about them )

Don't assume teacher pay will go down when the unions go away. The market is fair. There will be a lot of cost savings when collective bargaining douchebaggery is gone. Maybe you won't get to retire at 50 with a 90% pension for life but I'll bet the salary will be solid if not increase.

The pool of teaching talent will also shrink. I'll bet fewer entitlment seeking college kids will chose to be teachers if they know they no longer will get ridiculous benefits and will actually have to be good at their job to keep it. That will also drive up the price schools will have to pay for teachers.

Does it make ME happy? Yes and no. The BOARD created the salary caps I'm subject to. And despite having strong reviews, several awards, about $30K in grants, and kids who've improved on the standardized tests, I'll be seeing the same $0 raise this year as everyone else. That's not the union.. since we don't have one. That's the board, who voted to give administrators raises, but not teachers raises, this year. That's why I noted the board is made up of the top .5% of earners in our areas.. they're managers and CEOs.. who want to reward managers and CEO type people.. not the people who actually teach the kids.

I am comfortable in a competitive system, I thrived in it in the real world, and thrived in it when teaching at a Univ., and I'll thrive in it here. What I'm seeing though are good teachers who say "fuck this" and leave for industry because the pay and hours are better, plus you don't have to deal with teenagers. That's what leaves the holes for the people who want something cushy.

[Downbound Train]

Does it make ME happy? Yes and no. The BOARD created the salary caps I'm subject to. And despite having strong reviews, several awards, about $30K in grants, and kids who've improved on the standardized tests, I'll be seeing the same $0 raise this year as everyone else. That's not the union.. since we don't have one. That's the board, who voted to give administrators raises, but not teachers raises, this year. That's why I noted the board is made up of the top .5% of earners in our areas.. they're managers and CEOs.. who want to reward managers and CEO type people.. not the people who actually teach the kids.

I am comfortable in a competitive system, I thrived in it in the real world, and thrived in it when teaching at a Univ., and I'll thrive in it here. What I'm seeing though are good teachers who say "fuck this" and leave for industry because the pay and hours are better, plus you don't have to deal with teenagers. That's what leaves the holes for the people who want something cushy.

That sucks. Despite my own stellar performance, (#1 in the company), I took a 10% hit in 2010. It's tough everywhere, keep that in mind.

The bright side is, if your school board is doing a shitty job, you are working with a small enough voter base that you and a few buddies can have an effect on the next election. The bigger the Union or government body you are up against, the less say you have. Is your district out of money because some other city employees ARE union and are milking all the tax dollars? Maybe you should FIGHT the unions too.

In the end, if the majority says you get no raise, that's democracy. This is still America, you may have to move on.

[4matic]

Hero pay.

Highest salaries and other pay in Oakland in 2009:

$251,370: Oakland Police Chief

$246,936: City Administrator

$245,432: Police Officer

$239,300: Police Officer

$238,250: Police Officer

$233,557: Fire Lieutenant

$232,185: Police Officer

$226,708: Police Sergeant

$225,197: Police Lieutenant

$222,457: Police Sergeant



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1GM2Vx3VS

[regct]

Poly ASS please

[stompinlines]

Hero pay.

Highest salaries and other pay in Oakland in 2009:

$251,370: Oakland Police Chief

$246,936: City Administrator

$245,432: Police Officer

$239,300: Police Officer

$238,250: Police Officer

$233,557: Fire Lieutenant

$232,185: Police Officer

$226,708: Police Sergeant

$225,197: Police Lieutenant

$222,457: Police Sergeant

Wowza. Those pensions aren't going to be too shabby.

[smthgfshy]

WOW!! This community is disappointing. I don't understand all the teacher hate. Yes, I'm a teacher, so there's some bias here. I'm not sure where all you guys are getting your salary info, but teachers get paid jack shit compared to most any other job in the country. Most teachers (K-12, public) start at ~$30K. The most teachers get paid is about ~$70K and that's with 20+ years, a masters degree, and in a wealthy state. Really it varies by state.....oil rich states like WY and AK, where I have experience, are in the black and as such their teacher salaries are comparatively higher. Yeah, we time off in the summer and during school breaks, but we still put in an 8 hour day. In fact most teachers stay late and get there early. Then there's the grading and planning done at home at night. An average day is more like 10 hours. Did I mention all the supplies teachers use for their own classrooms?? All that comes out of pocket. Has anyone had to chaperone a group of 20-30 teens, or 9 year olds, or 6 year olds?? Not many people I know can handle huge groups of kids, let alone teach them things....things they should learn AND the state standards. If their students don't make the grade, NCLB removes funds from their classrooms and the teacher is deemed ineffective. Teachers have just as much stress and responsibility in their professions as any lawyer or business exec or anyone else. Oh yeah, and here's the kicker....the most important thing.....they are involved in your communities. They contribute to a/your child's life contributing to their development and creation of a responsible and aware member of our world.

Teachers are underrated. They use unions to ensure their voices are being heard and to have some semblance of recognition.....at least until they regain widespread respect.

Instead of hating on teachers, volunteer, get involved. Chapperone a fieldtrip, tutor a student, substitute teach, start a PTA. Can you do it?? Go get learned.

[Crass3000]

So while what you say may work in some communities... certainly not all of them. A LARGE percentage of this country just wants the kids educated, and doesn't want to participate in any way.

Well I sure hope they don't have kids cause parents need to do LOTS of homework with their kids (at least the young ones) or they'll fall behind. Homework is manditory.

Edit: Alot more is expected of both teachers and kids since I went to school. They learn things at least a grade ahead of what I did when I went to school. That being said, they are expected to have went to pre-school and go into kindergarten knowing ALOT more than long ago.

[regct]

Unless you work at a private school then you are a public employee. Public employees don't get paid jack. You were well aware of this going in and since you have a Masters degree you should be smart enough to understand the concept of public service. Deal with it or go to work in the private sector.

POLY ASS PLEASE

[boarddad]

You know, the headlines that have come out of Wisconsin only show how important it is for the governor to do what he did. The PUBLIC Unions wield WAY too much political power nation wide. The headlines don't talk about PUBLIC Unions though, they talk about Unions, as if these are the same unions that fought for workplace safety and a 40 hour workweek - they are far from it. Also, you can see it in this thread, the talking points have gone from "unions" to "teachers" - also not the same thing. Public unions are also the DMV workers, janitors, and thousands of cubicle dwelling desk jockeys that do God knows what all day. It would be tough to defend platinum, no cost benefits and pensions for those union members though, so the unions turn it around like we're ONLY talking about teachers - far from true. One other fallicy; the talking point that the union members are losing their collective bargaining "rights". The fact that you have to be a card-carrying member of a public employee union to participate in collective bargaining proves that it is not a "Right".

Try really hard to put all of that aside though and try and focus on the real problem. I don't care how much you like teachers, firefighters, police officers, or any of the thousands of other public union member jobs, the public employee pension system is imploding and is not sustainable at any tax rate. Period, end of discussion. the union bosses conveniently ignore this fact, and the media just doesn't seem to hear it. Any responsible governor would be doing the same thing Governors Walker and Christie are doing. The media should be demanding to know why they aren't, not blindly repeating Public Union BS talking points.

And no, I don't think this part of the discussion belongs in Poly Asshat because it really isn't a partisan issue. We all pay taxes and we are all getting scammed by the public employee unions.

[Downbound Train]

Nice work Boarddad ^^^^^^^^^^