Avalanche fataly incident report - Smithers, BC - 02-26-11

[time2clmb]

I didn't realize old Comforts came with leashes. Maybe someone more insightful can elaborate on whether they are supposed to tear away or not. I know some after-market leashes (e.g., B&D leashes) are designed to break-away after a certain amount of force (i.e., using zip ties of varying strengths).

The straps that my Comforts came with...well they certainly don't look like they are designed to break. I only use them while skinning on glaciers.

[Shorty_J]

Thanks for the feedback, Jonathan. Everything your friend said sounds reasonable. If anyone reading this has the ability to do the physical testing described, I'd be interested in a third party doing said tests rather than sending it to the manufacturer.

There are a lot of unknowns here, for sure, but I still feel like it is unlikely to be a battery contact issue because I would suspect I would have had some strange behaviour before this incident to clue me in to such a problem... but maybe it is a fallacy to think so. I feel that the explanations of strange battery behaviour, temperature, etc., are more likely... and maybe this is enough of a justification to change batteries long before reaching 50%.

[johngenx]

The straps that my Comforts came with...well they certainly don't look like they are designed to break. I only use them while skinning on glaciers.

I haven't seen an OE Dynafit leash that was designed to give way. They're for keeping your skis attached to you, which is not always a good thing. I know skis and bindings are $$$, but if I'm caught in an avalanche, I want my skis and poles gone. As Kev said, the exception is when skiing in crevassed terrain on a glacier where losing a ski during a crevasse fall would be a serious event. I cut the straps off my ski poles, as I never use them anyway. Just a good habit...

[Shorty_J]

The straps that my Comforts came with...well they certainly don't look like they are designed to break. I only use them while skinning on glaciers.

The person using the leashes in this case was because we were on very firm snow and if he lost a ski it would quickly find it's way to the very bottom of the valley. They were definitely not designed to break away.

[Crystal_Mt_Dreamin]

Glad you are OK and condolences to all others affected my this tragedy. I cannot imagine what you are going through.

In any event, thanks very much for taking the time to write this up, as it can serve as an educational and learning experience for others, as is the case in avalanche fatalities.

And despite whatever thoughts you may be thinking, you did a great job staying calm and collective in a very complex and difficult rescue scenario with three burials and one malfunctioning beacon. At the end, you saved someone's life - resulting from your eduction, experience and putting it in practice in a stressful situtation. Never forget that someone else is still with us because of your efforts.

Vibes to the victims....

^^What he said. Wow. Thanks for sharing.

[grrrr]

Thanks for sharing this. Definitely sobering.

I always carry spare batteries in my pack, and highly recommend others do too.

[Shorty_J]

I always carry spare batteries in my pack, and highly recommend others do too.

Not a bad idea, but I would hate to have had to fiddle with finding those batteries, getting the beacon compartment open, and change the batteries in the middle of a rescue situation where every second counts.

[time2clmb]

Something to do with poor contact on the battery connector...pretty much same thing as some of the info online.

[Huckin eh?]

Thanks Shorty J. for sharing. Definitely a sobering story and one that we can all learn from. I know I have!

Another thought: How does this potential battery issue affect a beacon like the 3+ that only uses 1 battery? Is it now more susceptible to this battery problem, or is my case a freak occurance or a bad battery connection?

I'm testing my 3+ as I write this. My battery will be changed tomorrow morning. It is at 69% right now. Ok, 61% because it has been outside in the cold on my deck for 25 minutes. (lost 8% in 25 mins).
Its still out there searching and I'll see what the battery life is like in another 1.5 hours when I hit the sack.
Edit: so after another 1.5 hours my battery meter is at 46%
23% in 2 hours!


Sleep well.

[bodywhomper]

My condolences to you, shorty j, and other friends and family of the deceased. Thanks for sharing your story. As others have said, Shorty j, you really kept your shit together and saved a life. I hope you are able to feel proud of that fact in light of the situation, and I hope time heals your wounds.

Have people read the post on the concurrent thread on ttips by “CSG”, who was a member of the party staying at the hut? If not, folks might want to pop over and read the post. It’s well written and respectful. One thing worth noting is that CSG mentions “apparently the slab pulled back many meters to the shallow angle "safe" spot above”. To me this sounds like the crown was on a relatively shallow slope angle. Maybe I’m misreading or CSG is incorrect, regardless, this does not seem to be an unusual characteristic of HS and, IMO, it is something worth noting and mentioning as a general lesson piece and reminder about some hard slabs.

cheers

[XXX-er]

Yesturday I was touring with one of the SAR guys from the incident SO of course we talked and among other things he said "one thing this incident shows me is I gotta get a digtal beacon" he said finding the last victim with his F1 in a no pressure situation was confusing even tho he knows how to use an analog ... heroic effort & great job shorty J

SO I went straight to the store but they are out of beacons cuz with the 3 fatalities (sledder at a popular sled spot last month) in one month ...there has been a run on beacons

re the battery : electrical contacts CAN corrode and fail even tho they don't LOOK corroded ,I seen it lots in computer HW, even the TV remote will quit working until you whack it on yer knee which jars/reseats the contacts ,we used a contact enhancer to ensure a good contact

[smitchell333]

Thanks for posting. Heavy reality of backcountry skiing.

[Shorty_J]

My condolences to you, shorty j, and other friends and family of the deceased. Thanks for sharing your story. As others have said, Shorty j, you really kept your shit together and saved a life. I hope you are able to feel proud of that fact in light of the situation, and I hope time heals your wounds.

Have people read the post on the concurrent thread on ttips by “CSG”, who was a member of the party staying at the hut? If not, folks might want to pop over and read the post. It’s well written and respectful. One thing worth noting is that CSG mentions “apparently the slab pulled back many meters to the shallow angle "safe" spot above”. To me this sounds like the crown was on a relatively shallow slope angle. Maybe I’m misreading or CSG is incorrect, regardless, this does not seem to be an unusual characteristic of HS and, IMO, it is something worth noting and mentioning as a general lesson piece and reminder about some hard slabs.

cheers

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't following that discussion, but I'm glad to read that. Maybe it's easier for the members of that forum to slam us since I'm not participating in that conversation... who knows.

I know who CSG is. He took control of the communications and dealt with SAR and the RCMP, post incident. I'm very grateful for his comments on that forum.

Regarding hard slabs... excellent point. I recall feeling that I was in a safe spot when I stopped and was surprised that the slab did break out above me on lower-angled slopes (though, the exact angle I can't recall).

[SchralphMacchio]

Glad you are OK and condolences to all others affected my this tragedy. I cannot imagine what you are going through.

In any event, thanks very much for taking the time to write this up, as it can serve as an educational and learning experience for others, as is the case in avalanche fatalities.

And despite whatever thoughts you may be thinking, you did a great job staying calm and collective in a very complex and difficult rescue scenario with three burials and one malfunctioning beacon. At the end, you saved someone's life - resulting from your eduction, experience and putting it in practice in a stressful situtation. Never forget that someone else is still with us because of your efforts.

Vibes to the victims....

x3, many thanks for putting this out there. I hope it helps you with your recovery.

[garyfromterrace]

Hey Shorty, as many others have said - thanks for posting this. I'm sure it wasn't an easy thing to do, so kudos for having the balls to do it. It should be required reading for anyone contemplating doing some backcountry skiing in an area that has any avy potential. Also, your actions in the midst of a very stressful situation were commendable. Hope you can heal quickly, but take it as it comes man. All the best, Gary.

[peace_coast]

I am really interested in the human factors that were at work here. Put in the same situation (complicated, unfamiliar terrain with partners that are much more experienced than I am), I am pretty certain that I would have been lulled into complacency as well. So I am not trying to armchair quarterback or judge anyone for the decisions made, rather trying to learn about them so I can hopefully feel more confident in speaking up when my gut screams "no!" Feel free to answer or ignore any of these questions. Obviously I understand if you don't have a solid answer or would rather not talk about something.

You mentioned that, at least in your estimation, the other members of your party were much more experienced than you are. How much experience do you have in avalanche terrain? How much formal avalanche education do you have? How does your experience level compare with the partners that you regularly ski with?

I am also wondering if you could elaborate on how your group came to the decision to ski the particular slope. Was it a pre-planned objective? Or did you evaluate conditions throughout the day and select the slope out of a few different options of varying exposure/steepness? Did anyone in the group clearly emerge as the de facto group leader or was it more of a group decision making process?

And again, condolences to all involved. It sounds like you performed admirably once the shit hit the fan. I wish you well on the recovery process and hope that you will be able to find some way to enjoy the backcountry again.

[spencea]

Props on the effort you put forward, and condolences to everyone involved.

re the battery : electrical contacts CAN corrode and fail even tho they don't LOOK corroded ,I seen it lots in computer HW, even the TV remote will quit working until you whack it on yer knee which jars/reseats the contacts ,we used a contact enhancer to ensure a good contact

As for the above, are you talking about cold solder joints (when a joint fails due to vibration/poor initial solder?) or loose connection between battery end and the contact? Because this was mentioned above in the fact not all batteries are the exact same dimensions.


The other issue that is prevalent in todays electronics is the poor quality of connections caused by lead free solder. A lot of world production has gone to Lead free solder to comply with toxicity mandates for disposal and recycling.

Cold Solder- http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30230
Lead free solder- http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ind...he-making.html
These were the first articles that came up in a google search and actually hit some good points. I had also heard somewhere that the new lead free solder also contributes to more cold solder joints, and symptoms associated with cold solder joints. From what I can remember and what I have just found a cold solder joint can cause intermittent power. Not saying it is the answer.

Have you thought about contacting the company who manufactured your beacon and return it to them for R&D? By the sounds of the way the unit behaved, and that the batteries were within limit, this may be a R&D engineers wet dream.

[XXX-er]

As for the above, are you talking about cold solder joints (when a joint fails due to vibration/poor initial solder?) or loose connection between battery end and the contact? Because this was mentioned above in the fact not all batteries are the exact same dimensions.

.

I would be talking about the metal to metal contact between 2 surfaces such as an adapter card and a mother board or battery to contact

in computer HW a flaky connection will give an error code that will often clear by hitting the unit but the customer would want the intermittent bug to be fixed

in a tv remote you might get a contact by smacking the unit on your knee

the glow plug curcuits in my diesel golf which is much like a sparkplug/ignition wire connection will register A fault light which will stay on till the onboard computer is reset with a scan tool even thot the car is starting fine in very cold weather

some metals are better for contact surfaces than others gold is the best I believe ...this is the shit we used to use

http://www.posthorn.com/Stab_2.html

[Shorty_J]

You mentioned that, at least in your estimation, the other members of your party were much more experienced than you are. How much experience do you have in avalanche terrain? How much formal avalanche education do you have? How does your experience level compare with the partners that you regularly ski with?

I am also wondering if you could elaborate on how your group came to the decision to ski the particular slope. Was it a pre-planned objective? Or did you evaluate conditions throughout the day and select the slope out of a few different options of varying exposure/steepness? Did anyone in the group clearly emerge as the de facto group leader or was it more of a group decision making process?.

I have zero problem answering any questions at all... that's why this conversation was started.

I started backcountry skiing around 8 years ago. I have my AST1 and AST2 (Canadian recreational level courses). The female victim had up to AST2 as well (I actually found out she took it with the same instructor, 1 week before I took my course), but I'm not sure how long she'd been backcountry skiing. The two other guys were long-time climbing and skiing partners, and while I don't have this knowledge with 100% certainty, I have a hard time believing these guys didn't have at least AST2 or maybe more. They have probably 30+ years of mountaineering experience, each. Ray seemed to be taking more of a leadership role on this day, and on the tirp in general. He did 2 crevasse rescue practice sessions with our group the day before, and taught such classes every year with the ACC.

The partner I ski with most has a bit less backcountry skiing experience (maybe 5-6 years), but also has his AST2 and a fair number of years of climbing/mountaineering experience. We discuss/argue routes and objectives regularly when we tour.

The objective set was to reach a col to have a look around, and then re-assess. None of us had been to the area and this was a sussing out mission. From talking to the surviving victim, he was under the impression that Ray was leading us across this slope to ski the trees on the other side of it. I'll admit that I wasn't fully aware of where he was going at the time and should have got that information clear in my own head. Again, not making excuses, but I was taking more of an observation role on this day.

[Shorty_J]

Have you thought about contacting the company who manufactured your beacon and return it to them for R&D? By the sounds of the way the unit behaved, and that the batteries were within limit, this may be a R&D engineers wet dream.

I have contacted them, but haven't spoken to anyone at length yet.

I still feel like I'd rather have the beacon go to an independent third-party for testing, if possible, but I don't know where that might be.

[Campo]

Judging by all the information that was presented, you acted PROPERLY in every way.

Sobeing read...glad you are alive!

Again, you did ALL THAT YOU COULD! Might want to ask the SAR crew if you can sit in on the QA follow-up (of they have one). It might help you, and possibly, them as well.

[BirdRock]

Shorty J - With all the idiots and blowhards in the world and especially on the net it's nice to see someone who has his head on straight and doesn't mind opening himeself up to critisim in an effort to both improve his knowldge and that of others. Seriously, props for this.

Congrats on saving a life and surviving. I have zero backcountry experience (other than guided cat trips) so I won't attempt to put myself in your shoes. From what I have read it sounds like you handled yourself admirably in very tough circumstances. Condolences to those that did not survive.

[bigasshair]

Shorty J, thanks for the sobering reflection of events.
It sounds like you did the best with what you had in the most difficult of situations.
Thumbs way up for putting this down for others to read and hopefully learn from this tragedy.
You survived as did one of your group, thanks to you. It could have been you surviving alone.
Given the difficult situation you were in its not surprising that you told yourself to "calm down".
I hope that time helps you and the families and friends of the victims heal. Get some help for PTSD, don't feel guilty for surviving.
Batteries are inexpensive....replace them frequently. Helmets can help with some head trauma maybe a full face for greater protection.
Snowpulse airbags wouldn't have helped with facial trauma but may have helped with head/neck trauma and kept you above the shit and marked locations of victims. These are all moot points in your case
I've used the older metal case Barryvox(analog) after buying them from a heli-ski operation and a Barryvox refurbish.
I felt that these were much more robust than the plastic case version. I switched to DTS when digital became available with better performance. Never used the 3000 but have know of a friend that had problems with one and upon return to the manufacture got zilch in the way of customer service/replacement even although they're in the industry. If they won't stand behind the performance of their product why bother dealing with them.

[moose pit]

That is a sobering read. You stepped up in a big way.
Vibes to all involved.

[goldenboy]

The CPSC forced Ortovox to send out replacement battery compartment doors, even though the claim was only one instance of an M2 losing power because of a hard slap to the housing, and this was never replicated by anyone.

I've had multiple instances of that beacon failing during routine beacon checks, including a unit that had been "fixed" under warranty. Give it a tap- transmitting; another tap- nothing. Same for search mode. I really hate partners showing up with that beacon (M1/M2).

Back to the subject at hand, thanks for being so open about this, Shorty J. It sounds to me that the only person that was likely to have survived was saved- thanks to you. Take some solace in that.