Review: 188 s7, 191 Lhasa, 190 Lotus 120

[XtrPickels]

I've been meaning to write this up for a while, but frankly I'm lazy.

Me: 163 pounds of complete studmuffin. I've reached the ripe age of 29 and I've been on skis since I was a kid. Better than most, far worse than others. When everyone and their mom is nuts to butts in the obvious powder, I'm probably snooping around in the trees.
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Skis that will always be dear to my heart: Volkl Explosivs, Bro Models, Volkl G4s
Other Skis I've skied and would ski again: Raceroom legend pros, big daddies, Lotus 138s, 179/188 bros (soft and stiff), Moment Tahoes, Scott p3, Head monsters.
Skis I haven't liked: I find short radius carvers boring, Foam Salomons.

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188 Rossignol S7, Mounted on the line w/ Look PX15.
191 PM Gear Lhasa Pow Carbons. Mounted on the line with Dukes
190 DPS Lotus 120s Hybrid Mounted +1 with Dukes.

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Groomers:
S7: Everyone says it and its completely true... s7's are groomer machines. Well, at least as much of a machine as a 112 waisted rockered ski can be. Turn initiation is quick, they grip well at all but the highest speeds. These are not a cambered race ski, but they're the best carving rockered ski I've ever been on. I haven't found these to be hooky and am able to make many different radius turns with no issues.

Lhasa: Patience is key. PMGear skis, in my opinion, are slower than others in initiating carved turns. However, once they are on edge they absolutely rail and slice through everything. You just have to be patient and let them rail at their natural radius.

120s: Just like the Lhasas, the 120's have a big turn radius. If you tip them on edge, expect that they are going to make big turns. If you understand this limitation, you'll like the ski. There is less rebound in the hybrid 120 than the lhasa.

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Cut Up / Crud

S7: The s7 keeps you on your toes in in cut up / crud etc etc. If its a essentially a bumpy groomer, the rocker easily ramps up over the bumps and you cruise along. Keep your legs supple and underneath you and you have no problems. If, however, there small patches of untouched snow mixed in with an abundance of tracks... well things get interesting. Off edge / smearing / slarving the ski responds normally. Its fun, its playful. On edge, however, there is the dreaded "Chihuahua" syndrome. In my opinion its the big twin catching on the variable density of snow, but there is something that causes lots of drag and pulls back at your feet. Its an odd feeling to go from no drag / drag / no drag.

Lhasa: Unwavering and smooth. Less rocker than the S7, so it feels more knife-like. There is no drag, everything is super smooth. I wish I had more to report here, but they're just really predictable and work well.

120: Similiar to Lhasa, but a bit more of the "up and over" from the longer / deeper tip rocker. Additionally, the increased weight over the Lhasa makes these feel like they "bust through" with more heft.

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Open Pow
s7: Slowest Powder Skis Ever. I want to take a hacksaw to the tail and dumb it down a little. This could also be a product of the major pintail shape which sinks the tails pretty deep. Even though its slow, its still super fun in the powder.

Lhasa: Like a hot knife through butter. Very stable because of the longer contact length. Glides effortlessly through powder, tips stay up. They do everything you want them to and nothing that you don't. Turns are poppy and fun.

120's: Again, similar to the Lhasas. With the increased splay they float a touch better and feel a touch looser.

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Trees / tight places
S7: This is where the S7 shines. With the center mount, major rocker, huge tips and side cut its impossibly quick. Think and the skis are where you want them to be. Everything from deep powder trees to dust on crust, they are quick. People have said that these are great "game improvement" skis. I don't think so. They are so easy, you really do not have to improve, you'll just instantly be better.

Lhasas: These are game-improvement because they reward you for doing things right. Almost anyone can ski any ski on a groomer or wide open smooth bowl. Its the turns that need to be made that count. The Lhasa is very rewarding in tight places. They're better than they should be, given how big and straight they are. They're very quick edge to edge, for their size, which may be due to their light weight. The rebound helps too. If you ski them properly they'll respond as you want. If you are tentative or in the back seat they will buck you. You instantly know the difference between strong skiing and weak skiing. They make you a better skier. If I was in a narrow couloir, I'd want the Lhasa over the s7 because its so sure footed.

120's: They ski slightly bigger than the lhasa because they are slightly bigger. They feel looser and more slarvy. This could be due to the width, the extra splay or the fact that the edges on the 120's are hammered and the Lhasa's are like razors. The hybrid 120s sort of "slither" down a line. They slide in and out of the places that you put them and they don't complain. I think the +1 mount helps in tight places.

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Landings: (Caveat, I really don't huck anything big)
S7: I've gone over the bars twice. Once was a cornice and the other a cattrack. Both times it was a flat-ish take off and a moderately pitched landing. Maybe 5-8 feet vertical from take off to landing. I matched the slope of the landing and when I stomped to ski out of it... well I just sunk in and went over the bars.

Lhasa and 120s: Very stable platforms. No issues with landings at all.

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Where do they fit in my quiver
s7: Looking at this review the s7 have some quirks, which I think is accurate. However, like some crazy friends, you deal with the oddness because they're so damn fun. I am skiing the s7 as a daily driver because I know I will enjoy it on anything I come across at the resort. They ski bumps well, trees well, groomers well and they're fun in the pow too. This is playful ski that encourages you to do silly things, try new lines etc etc.

Lhasa: In my quiver the Lhasas are my go to sidecountry, touring and deeper powder days... especially if I know I'm going to be skiing tracked out terrain. They're a more solid ski than the s7 and I trust them more in variable conditions. They are more demanding, but they also encourage you to be a better skier and reward you for being on your game.

120's: Since the Lhasa's entered the picture, the 120's have moved on. I was happy with them in the role that the Lhasa's now fill, but frankly the Lhasa is lighter. They are so similar in most aspects that the weight factor is a big one and noticeable when touring. They ski incredibly well and are much easier to ski then the size would suggest. They reward a good skier, but not to the extent of the Lhasas. This ski just felt like it was "there". It didn't cause a ruckus, It didn't stand out. It did what you asked, but that was about it.

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To Look at:
S7: I'm really debating moving the mount back. I don't know if it will make the over the bars / slowness issues better because there is more tip or worse because it'll sink the tails and slow the ski down that much more. They feel very center mounted, but that's because I never ski skis that are center mounted.

Wailer 112: I'm hopefully demo'ing these this weekend (will update this if I do). I have a feeling they will have all of the goodness of the s7, plus the goodness of DPS magic minus the badness of the s7.

Lhasa: I think I am going to continue to detune the crap out of them... or just continue to hit more rocks when I ski. I think the sharp edges may account for them feeling less loose than the 120's. Additionally, I'm wondering if a +1 mount will increase turn initiation on groomers. In a sense I don't really care because I'm not planning on skiing many groomers with them anymore (I did so for the sake of this comparison).

Lotus 120's: I would love to compare the Hybrid to the pure. I think that 120 shape + carbon lightness + the volume turned up could be a very fun ski.

[Vitamin I]

Sweet head-to-head comparison reviews. Thanks!

.

[D(C)]

Open Pow
s7: Slowest Powder Skis Ever. I want to take a hacksaw to the tail and dumb it down a little. This could also be a product of the major pintail shape which sinks the tails pretty deep. Even though its slow, its still super fun in the powder.

This is why I got rid of mine. Abrubt rocker, high tail and pintail shape = slow and draggy. I'd recommend you give the Bent Chetler a go. They have a similar feel to the S7 but a more normal tip to tail width ratio and a less abrupt rocker, making them much smoother in open terrain.

Thanks for the comparisons!

[bertrenolds]

About the over the handelbars while dropping something on the S7's, I think it is due to mounting them at center. Anyone who skis them will tell you to mount them -1 to -2. And the tails grabbing and making you feel like you are going slow, only time I've felt this feeling was on a pow day pointing them down art's bowl face at breck where it is probably the steepest on the mountain. It seemed like I was riding the tail's I was going so fast, other then that they do rip all around and cutting the tail off would be stupid if you like to drop things switch in pow or just enjoy skiing backwards.

[Tye 1on]

great review!!! I wonder how JJ's would have fit in?

[Beyond]

Great reviews. Have owned same 3 skis, think your conclusions are dead on. FWIW, I'm about your weight, had Lhasas mounted on the line, Splat's rec. Similar experience on groomers; slow to get there, then railroad tracks. Decided not to move binding forward because they weren't aimed at groomers and if anything I would have wanted the mount back a cm or two for heavy pow. Also owned Lotus 120's, nice but always seemed to pick my other pow ski. Own S7's in 188 now. Unique, can require special handling, but for lift-served soft snow and trees, too versatile not to own. Miss my Lhasas sometimes, though.

[bern43]

Which version of the Lhasa are you on? Just curious if people are noticing the extra width taken out of the tail this year. Review is similar with my experiences with last year's 191.

[XtrPickels]

Bern- They are the newest version, just got them from Pat maybe a month ago.

Bert- They were mounted on the line when I bought them (used), which is why I have been skiing them there. I am aware of what the other recommendations are.

Tye- I haven't skied the JJ, but my gut feeling is that it is more similar to the Blue House Maestro, which I did not like as an "all mountain" ski. They both seem to be more symmetrical over all and more heavily tapered in the tip. I felt like the maestro's had too much taper in the tip and the contact point was too close to the binding. They did okay with a very neutral stance and in untracked snow, but my feeling with the Maestro's was that they were too "in between" and would have been better with a full on Lotus 138 shape and used for the powpow. I prefer to drive the tips of my skis and on any surface beyond powder, I felt like they didn't respond how I wanted them too. However, this is total hearsay because I have absolutely nothing to base it on beyond assumptions.

[Tye 1on]

Thanks dude. Kind of kicking around JJ's/FT12's for a mostly b/c rig, so trying to do a little research...

[XtrPickels]

T- My hang ups on shapes like "that" would go away if I didn't have to ski groomers and bumps and other "all mountain" terrain with them.

[wcf3]

Nice thorough reviews. I did a review and comparison a while back that included these skis (although in different lengths for the Lhasa's and 120's):

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...tra?highlight=

My impressions were pretty similar, with some slight variations. I was interested to hear your experiences hucking these skis, since I don't do much hucking other than mandatories, which doesn't provide a lot of data. In the future I'll be even more careful getting airborn on my S7's.

[Mustonen]

I've skied all 3, except the Lhasa was in a 196. I'd more or less echo your sentiments on the Lhasa and the 120. I've actually come to think my meh impressions of the 120 and eventually the Lhasa was because of the duke. I wasn't a fan of the s7 at all, though your description of how they ski is pretty close to what I thought.

Nice writeup.

[slave2gravity]

Awesome review! I wanted to demo either the S7s, Moment Night train / Bibby or some Lhasas at Kirkwood today. I failed in finding any of them. Cornice is closed, so no PM Gear, and the demo shop incorrectly states on their website that they carry the others...

Instead I went out with Dynastar 6th Sense Huge, which are similar in shape and size (185). Unlike my 183 Bros I was riding yesterday in the powder, I noticed the Dynastar's tips had a tendency to dive if I tried to stay in a more forward stance like when on my Bros. They were also heavier than the Bros and Lhasas (which I've demo'd before). Once I got adjusted to them, I found that they were very fast and very stable, but didn't like to initiate turns as quickly as the the 186 Lhasas. My legs and side of my calves were really worked after a few hours skiing, too. That's probably down to technique, but I think the noticeably heavier weight than the Lhasas came into play there, as I've never experienced that kind of fatigue and discomfort on the Lhasas.

Bottom line, I committed to buy some demo Lhasas at the end of the season, and not only do I not regret my choice, but the time to pick them up won't come quick enough!

[Bandit Man]

Nice reviews. Have only skied the S7's of the three and agree with most of what was said. I love a deep snow ski that I don't have to swap out when the freshies get tracked out. Since I do most of my skiing locally in the Central Cascades, I really don't get to ski wide-open spaces, so the S7's fit the bill for me. The one thing that I will disagree with is going over the bars on dropping airs. I've hit several 10-20 footers (I go huge), with no problems and mine are mounted at the "zero" mark. I have been skiing Spats and Praxis Powders for a while, so not sure if it being used to the forward mount or something else. Just my 2-cents.

You make me want to post a straight head-to-head review of JJ's vs. S7's. I finally decided last week that the S7's are better skis for me.

[Tye 1on]

Musto- curious what you feel the duke did to the behavior of those two models.

[XtrPickels]

B-man. Over the bars could have been my technique. Both times were "charging" and sending it off a flat area and onto a slope with the intent of landing and skiing in one fluid motion. I was purposefully rotated forward in the air to match the slope of the landing in an appropriate skiing stance. Conversely, if I am "dropping" something I tend to be a little more rearward biased and go for the landing and then think about skiing after. In all likelyhood I may have been too far forward on these particular landings or just too far forward for these skis. However, its a similar situation that I've played out before and didn't happen to have an issues with other skis. Maybe more rearward mounted skis are more forgiving and saved my ass from tomahawking.

I'm also curious as to how the Lhasa's ski with a traditional binding. If anyone wants to trade for a few runs, I'd be game (315bsl)

[Bandit Man]

XP - what you described, charging versus dropping makes sense. S7's aren't made to charge but are dang fun. These days my knees just aren't what they used to be, but the buttery easiness of S7's make them feel a lot stronger.

[Hicks]

Lhasa: Patience is key. PMGear skis, in my opinion, are slower than others in initiating carved turns. However, once they are on edge they absolutely rail and slice through everything. You just have to be patient and let them rail at their natural radius.

I think the opposite is true since the narrow pintail helps rolling it on edge and 112 isn't exactly superfat underfoot. I found driving the tips helps on smaller turn radii here fwiw.

Additionally, I'm wondering if a +1 mount will increase turn initiation on groomers

Had the 191s mounted that way from day one on but very happy with it not only on the groomers but anywhere else.


Else great review.

[Lindahl]

B-man. Over the bars could have been my technique. Both times were "charging" and sending it off a flat area and onto a slope with the intent of landing and skiing in one fluid motion. I was purposefully rotated forward in the air to match the slope of the landing in an appropriate skiing stance.

I'm no pro, but based on my hucking experience, in general, this is your problem. You don't want to match the slope of the landing. You want to be angled above it slightly - tails should be touching down first, punching into the landing, and rock forward to centered as you impact. Unfortunately, the soft tails of the S7 make this more difficult than on other skis - they'll fold up on you (at least when going big).

[Mustonen]

Musto- curious what you feel the duke did to the behavior of those two models.

I don't really know, I just know that after the initial "New SKIS! " euphoria wore off, neither rocked my world and kind of left me bored unless conditions were awesome. If I wasn't broke/cheap and didn't care about resale I would have mounted some fks/p18s and compared and contrasted. Usually I can define what I don't like about a pair of skis...but with these I never could, other than that they felt a little numb.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be happy to ski either pair as daily drivers for a season or two, but neither had me as stoked as other skis in my quiver have/do (ants, motherships, renegades, for example).

[shasti]

^^^interested to hear somebody echoes my thoughts about the lhasa. It feels ok, but doesn't get me excited to ski it. I have more fun on all of my other skis

hijack(feel free to PM me if you'd like to buy mine)

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I've skied all 3. Only 1 day on the S7's with demo bindings. I thought they were fun, but too turny and soft, and a mess in crud. I lack the finesse to ski them fast. Didn't get to ski them in good snow.

I have about 40 days on Lotus 120's Pures mounted with Dynafits. Those skis turn me into Superman. They are maneuverable at slow speeds and stable at speed. On groomers or hard snow they are predictable, but far from ideal. On crud the stabilize when driven on edge. On soft snow they just speak to me. Pics from yesterday, courtesy of Thin Cover and Buttahflake:





I have 4 days on 191 Lhasas with FKS. They need a bit more speed than the 120's before they become easy to throw around in soft snow. And they're a little less forgiving, but they make up for it by being a great hard now ski. Like other Bros, you can't just tip them over and arc, but they give back what you put in. Once you figure out the best stance and the minimum require effort they're damn good. They don't hand flex all that stiff, but they are very stable in every condition I've used them in.

[XtrPickels]

I found driving the tips helps on smaller turn radii here fwiw.

I think this is appropriate advice regarding the Lhasa in general.

[XtrPickels]

Felt the urge to ski the Lhasa's at the resort again. 4" or so of fluff over crusty at Vail. Eventually everything softened up.

The Lhasa is so damn sure footed its not funny. It was like a revelation hitting the cornice (10-15ft) skier's right under the skyline lift in BSB. The landings were stupidly super solid and maching through the cut-up was a breeze. I was easily skiing twice as fast as those around me, popping off some of the bumps and enjoying life. My ski buddy noted how much faster I ski when I'm on the Lhasa's. As I noted before, I think the Lhasa's encourage you to be a better skier. When I'm on, I can do no wrong. When I'm off, they remind me that I need to sack up.

I've skied other skis that are similarly stable, but they were heavy and metal and busted through everything. The Lhasa is light and poppy and stable, which is a great combination. The tip-shape is money. I was just as happy with them in the tighter terrain because they're so easy to throw around. Fun day.