BD Quadrant // review for small feet in big boots

[khyber.pass]

This year I picked up the BD Quadrant, which has to be one of the better attempts to design a stiff and strong but lightweight overlap touring boot.

For info see also this thread -- http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...adrant-AT-boot

The Down. The Quadrant skis like no other touring boot I've had the pleasure of riding, and that includes the Garmont Radium and Scarpa Spirit series. Note I am not comparing it to the Titan or the Factor, which weigh much, much more and are made with PU and not PeBax. That said, the Quadrant feels about as stiff as both, while being a much lighter and more agile boot.


Flex. The Quadrant is stiff and its 120 flex claim are not as exaggerated as other manufacturers (*cough* Salomon Quest *cough*). It has a hard forward flex which, if anything, could be more progressive (a few riders report shinbang). But unlike many overlap touring boots, it will hold tight at speed and does not collapse forward in adverse terrain. Lateral flex is also impressively stiff, providing solid support edge-to-edge and for holding down the carving aspects of the turn.


Walk mode.In touring mode, the boot moves forward impressively well, with a long forward motion for the uptrack. There is little resistance on the forward stride and BD's sliding-hinge innovation appears to do its job. In this respect it has some of the best forward motion on uptrack tours of any boot I have yet toured in -- of this class (ie not to be compared to a DyNA).

Where the boot seems to have lost some movement is on the rearward hinge, which *should* go back more. Unfortunately the boot has a tough time moving back past 80 degrees. Note you can mod this. I removed the rear cuff and ground down (with a Dremel) the spines below the walk mode lever on the rear of the boot and in the corresponding notch in the cuff. This yielded a few more degrees of easier rearward movement, but it is evident that the cuff has been molded a tad too tight. Hopefully BD will correct its mold in future versions.


Materials.The workmanship of the boot is capable and strong, with a decent lugged sole and burly Dynafit inserts that show little sign of wear. The wire buckles have yet to show any disadvantages. The hooked buckle clasps designed for locking-out the buckles in touring mode take some getting used too –– they can be very difficult to unhook -- but work well enough. Unfortunately the powerstrap is something of a let-down. A larger, rubberized powerstrap would give the boot some progressive flex when combined with a looser buckling system. The current powerstrap is so measly that it can nearly be undone without any notice in the performance of the down, which means it is nearly superfluous in the design.


Shell Fit. This is a very roomy boot in length, width and volume for its BSL. A size 27 is only 310BSL, which is frustrating, as industry consensus usually is for a size 27 to come in at around 315BSL. This means if you have a US men's size 11 foot, you either have to size down to a 310BSL and punch a good 5mm in the toes, or size up to a 28 and try and pad out the extra 5mm (one finger) of space. I went larger --- more on that below as I reconsider the decision.

As for width, a size 27 has a 103mm last. This is quite large even for touring standards, and when combined with the large volume of the forefoot, perhaps too large to achieve a performance fit in a boot that will break in over time. The boot last also changes proportionally to the size. Thus a size 28 has a 105mm last, which is massive, and a size 26 a 101mm last.

One hopes BD thinks about taking the general design and making a 100mm last, lower volume boot for those seeking a performance fit that will last much longer than such a large boot will deliver.


Toe buckle. One other common complaint concerning shell design is the toe buckle. Why it exists is perhaps a good question given that the Prime eschews it. Moreover the positioning of the buckle on top of the boot serves little purpose save to pressure the overlap hinge directly on top of the toes. Doing up this buckle so that it actually tightens the shell only indents the overlap, which is painful for most rider's feet. I only moderately do up the buckle, which again makes me wonder if it is even necessary. I have since skied with the buckle completely loose and noticed little difference in performance. Raising the toe with a bondex board produces a better toebox fit than tightening the buckle. For those with a decent toebox fit, removing the buckle entirely might be a useful mod to reduce weight and resolve toebox fitting issues.

Stock liner. While the stock liner is thermomoldable, it is quite soft and mushy. My own liners slipped inside the boot shell, which is a bad sign. It would appear that instead of using foam that expands to fill space in the shell (a la Intuitions), BD used foam that shrinks around the foot. Having one's liner slip inside the shell is unacceptable.

I have since tried Intuition PowerTours. While providing a much warmer and closer fit than the BD liners -- as well as not slipping inside the shell! -- there is still too much space within the shell, and I am experimenting with Intuition Luxuries, footbeds, bondex boards and good ol' 3M sticky foam to try and achieve a tighter, more precise fit.


Fitting narrow feet. For those of us who ski comfortably in 98mm last boots at 315BSL the Quadrant is a difficult fit. A size 28 at 320BSL isn't impossibly long for feet that usually fit 315mm BSL -- my Radiums were 325mm -- but with a 105mm last there is enough play in the boot for the foot to shift off axis and torque inside the shell. In powder this is less noticeable, but as soon as conditions demand precise control and/or the big planks come out, the fit is too weak to deliver high-end performance.

Obviously this is particular to one's foot, but BD's proportional last sizing is something of a gamble, in assuming that a longer foot is also a wider foot. Overall, there is too much forefoot volume in the boot, and increasing buckle pressure does not reduce shell size while having the effect of cutting off circulation.

Bootfitters also don't appreciate a boot with this much volume, as it makes it very difficult to work with. It is a much better idea to have a tighter fitting shell that one can press and punch than a cavernous shell that one is then trying to fill up with bits of foam and board.

I am now considering a pair of 27s and punching the toes 5mm -- if anyone has read this far AND had experience in doing so, let me know.


-- Feedback welcome, this be a draft --

[verbier61]

the quadrant serves a type of foot that seems to be rare in yurp. Maybe it's much more common in us.
regarding the walk mode, it's pretty standard, but quite limited when compared to tlt5 and maestrale, which imvho should be considered as the new gold standard.

[XXX-er]

how is the fit around the ankle,I got a small size 24 foot ,wide forefoot with a narrow ankle ?

[lcylemon]

how is the fit around the ankle,I got a small size 24 foot ,wide forefoot with a narrow ankle ?

This is my exact problem - I experienced a bit of heel lift in this boot because of a wide forefoot. The upside to it is that because it is a wider boot, it never becomes uncomfortable when the toes are tugged back in the toebox. The downside is obviously the heel lift, but it really most noticeable going up. I do have a history of plantar fasciitis so the discomfort I experienced may not be standard.

Please go get some good orthotics for these boots!!! Stock insoles flatten out like you sat your ass on a pancake.

[khyber.pass]

I don't suffer much from heel lift, despite the boot's massive volume. The main issue is too much forefoot volume, which means that shifting the foot three dimensionally (side-up-down) allows for too much play within the boot when driving the ski.

[otto parts]

Slightly different perspective on fit. The shell is just right for my wide American feet. Boa liners are short for the size-a 27 liner is 5 mm shorter than the 27 Pro tours I just picked up. Also, the toe is boxier in the Intuition, which fits the shell (and me) better. Shell fit in a 26.5 was good for a comfort fit (18-20mm), and still way tight with the stock liners for my 9.5 d foot. Seller had same issue and was trying to get around short liners with a 27 instead of the 26.5.

[khyber.pass]

Otto, when you say the liner was tight, was this before after thermomolding? I found the liner to be 5mm shorter than shell size, but expanded that 5mm easily upon thermomolding.

However, I believe the expansion is mostly internal to the liner's thickness, and thus the liner slips around inside the shell regardless.

While the liners are better than some (Garmont), they're not up to par with what Scarpa is doing (modified Intuition).

[otto parts]

I didn't heat, but previous owner did heat the 26.5 which failed to stretch it enough-not scientific but sounded like he and I had same issue. And the 27 liner was still too short/snug for me in the 26.5 shell, to the point of cutting off circulation in 5 minutes. Until I did the shell fit I was thinking I would have to go to a 27 shell. I got a deal on the Intuitions and unmolded they fit me and the shell better, so will likely just go with them.

[klikboom]

So im having the same issues. I have the 28.5 quadrant's and my apline boot is a krypton pro which I really like the fit of. So I've swapped the liners with my powerwraps and I'm still suffering from slop. I have the low volume fit that is kind of wide due to my arch flattening out even with arch support. I got them from REI so I can return them, any suggestions on better fitting touring boots? The reason i went with quadrants is they were the only ones that grabbed my heel and didn't make my foot cry (scarpa maestrale).

[khyber.pass]

@ Otto -- make sure to use toecaps of course -- doubled if necessary -- for stretching the liner. In comparison to other liners I had no issue stretching it, it's a super soft build. You're right though, the liner is too small for the shell which also accounts for improper fits in the shop.

@klikboom --- your issue is my own. Unfortunately I have yet to find a boot as light and as stiff and as comfortable as the Quadrant, but with a narrower last and less volume. No one seems to (yet) make such a boot. Either you have to go heavier -- Dynafit Titan, BD Factor -- or with a boot with less power -- Dynafit TLT5, Scarpa Maestrale, Garmont Radium -- or with a boot that isn't tech fitting compatible due to serious design flaws (Solly Quest).

Each boot has its fitting peculiarities, and with all due respect to the companies involved, none of them yet have created a powerful, light, low volume touring boot, which is surprising, given that most rippers I know ride low volume alpine boots which are then pressed and punched where appropriate.

The Radium was close but the liner was a vice and due to an incredibly small toebox one had to go +10mm larger than usual BSL. The Quadrant is a bit better, I oversized by +5mm which wouldn't normally be an issue, but the overall width and high volume of the forefoot means that I can't achieve the lockdown required to trust the boot.

I am going to take a size 27 shell into a good bootfitter and see if he thinks it can be punched enough in the toe to make it work. I'd suggest doing the same at REI -- see if you can downsize.

[SiSt]

Went in to try on the quadrant after having borrowed a friends factors on a couple of tours and really liking the fit and the comfort, but not liking the weight. Also I already have pretty new inbounds boots that I´m very happy with. (Tecnica agent 130´s, one rivet removed.)

The quadrants fit my foot very well, but I found in the shop that they flexed quite a bit softer than I´d normally like. Granted, they will stiffen up a bit in colder temps, but not as much as a normal boot due to the pebax.

So I´m wondering if anyone has tried stiffening the boot? Thinking possibly about adding material to the inside of the cuff to increase friction with the lower shell or something of the kind? Or if anyone has a different idea?

Alternately, Tecnica Cochise? (But I can prob get a good deal on BD gear...)

[Meathelmet]

Thanks for the writeup,Kyhber. I have to say you are about spot on all around. But, to give more info for those who need, so I´ll use your post as a template?



The Down.
The Quadrant skis like no other touring boot I've had the pleasure of riding, and that includes the Garmont Radium and Scarpa Spirit series. Note I am not comparing it to the Titan or the Factor, which weigh much, much more and are made with PU and not PeBax. That said, the Quadrant feels about as stiff as both, while being a much lighter and more agile boot.



I have ridden the Factor,Radium,Megaride and Zzeus. Way,way stiffer originally than Radium and Zzeus and a bit softer than factor with normal liners. With Scarpa(intuition) powerwraps felt about the same than Factors,but had no possibility test them side by side.
Lightish and quite agile. Have not done anything super technical on my first 25 days (climbed ice with crapons etc..) but feel good. Walkmode is better than radiums or zzeus,even with wraparounds.




Flex.

The Quadrant is stiff and its 120 flex claim are not as exaggerated as other manufacturers (*cough* Salomon Quest *cough*). It has a hard forward flex which, if anything, could be more progressive (a few riders report shinbang). But unlike many overlap touring boots, it will hold tight at speed and does not collapse forward in adverse terrain. Lateral flex is also impressively stiff, providing solid support edge-to-edge and for holding down the carving aspects of the turn.



Totally agreed. Of the 25 days couple have been with SL and GS skis with blue ice and rest 20 has been Amplid Cholesterones (stiff,126mm) on extremely variable snow. Waist deep pow on open faces to icy eurocrustymank jump turns to every worst possible snow I have probably ever skied. Honestly.

Flex with Powerwraps only was good,but the shinbang came back due to the weird flex, due to the low (indide,the sole part of the cuff) ,as the foot could bend over it. But this only appeared when driving some GS skis on really hard conditions, or when skiing some icy bumps with the amplids. Wich is okay if you consider that this is a Randonée boot,I guess?
I resolved the problem by using a extra shim between the boot and the liner, normal Nordica race shim. A pair weights about 40 grams or so...
A totally different feeling,for me at least.

The lateral flex is on the par with my Nordica Speedmachine14s,wich, for a randonee boot is quite good. I guess... Absolutely no complaints here.

Allso there is none of the same "collapsible boot" syndrome that for example Radiums suffer badly. The boot stays true during the flex,and after it bottoms out...well...I guess it goes somewhere?
With the normal liners and sans shim, I think it would go to the shin? Badabing?




Walk modeIn touring mode.

the boot moves forward impressively well, with a long forward motion for the uptrack. There is little resistance on the forward stride and BD's sliding-hinge innovation appears to do its job. In this respect it has some of the best forward motion on uptrack tours of any boot I have yet toured in -- of this class (ie not to be compared to a DyNA).




Walk mode is ok with the Powerwraps,but obviously you have to open the buckles. Forward gait is good and skinning & walking is ok. Backward motion feels a bit toight ,could be better,I guess? But the walk mode is waaaaay better than radiums with the same liner, wich practically made the walk mode shitpoor.
And having tested the TLT5s and their walk mode...well...lets not get there... It would be like comparing italian dance shoes with indian moccasines....




Materials.

The workmanship of the boot is capable and strong, with a decent lugged sole and burly Dynafit inserts that show little sign of wear. The wire buckles have yet to show any disadvantages. Unfortunately the powerstrap is something of a let-down.

Agreed. The flimsy looking buckles have worked very well (knocks wood) and are relatively easy to operate.
But the powerstrap? Wow.
I mean :BD. WTF?
It is like powerstrap version of Ford Pinto. Or if that powerwrap would be a condom,the Vatican would endorse people to actually use one.
Replace mine after one day and replaced it with a boosterstrap: Win.
So much better performance with the extra 40 grams being the only disadvantage.
Do it.


Shell Fit This is a very roomy boot in length, width and volume for its BSL. A size 27 is only 310BSL, which is frustrating, as industry consensus usually is for a size 27 to come in at around 315BSL. ETC.


This I can not comment that much as I dont have much info..

The 24.5 size Quadrant was 5mm shorter than my 24.5 Radiums (285 vs. 280mm)
and the inside of the Quads were couple of mils shorter. I have a 25 size foot.

In radiums I had to punch the toes but they still ate my toenails and I tried to widen them but they still made my feet cramp.
I have no idea what the actual width of the Quadrants are, but fuck me : If the BD informs that the "Quadrant Last is 104mm" shouldnt they be that in every size? Or any other boot manufacturer as well? Or at least inform the correct width of the said size,goddammit! They have the info,make it aviable!


Toe buckle.

One other common complaint concerning shell design is the toe buckle. Why it exists is perhaps a good question given that the Prime eschews it.



Ding ding!

The only thing that the toebuckle does, is that is actually crushes the toebox inwards.
It does not squeeze the shell tighter,it just goes "down". Totally,utterly useless.
A bit same with the second buckle as well. It works a bit better,but it seems that most of its energy goes down to push the shell down, instead of "wrapping it up" as most boots do. Dont know about the exact physics behind this, so someone wise please enlighten us.
I can ride with the buckles practically open with these boots. With the intuition liners,the fit is just so damn good that only with really wide skis (100mm+) and shitty euromank I have to tighten them up. Just a bit though,because otherwise my footbed gets crushed..


Stock liner.



Move on. Nothing to see here.

Seriously. BD, if you want to be on the top of the game, collaborate with intuition.
Seriously.



Fitting narrow feet.



Hmm.
No advice on this one. I have puny lady feet that some (Strolz) fitters say are wide and others (Surefoot) say are normal. Everyone says though I should get man-sized feet though. Same motherfuckers broke my canting screws and made me order a totally useless footboards,so..whatever.

I am just personally just so goddam happy that I have finally found boots that fit me so well,last wise. Powerwraps & thin Thermic footboards in Quadrants = money.


And one word : The original BD liners are just so crappy,that they should be banned by some international authority. Like Bildenberger group.

-The stiching is all over the wrong places.
-I cant fit the liner within the boots,even without the footbed.Even after molding.
-They are cold (ok,havent used the Quadrant ones,used the factor ones and they were cold.so maybe this is not relevant,even though they look,feel and taste the same.)
-They are soft.
-They leave a gap in front of the tongue.(ok,they walk a bit better than powerwraps)
-The boa crapped on me when fitting the liners for a backup liner.
-They are heavy.
-They slide inside the boot.




I prolly should put a disclaimer here that I have a lot of BD products that I have trusted my life on in the previous 2 decades and I love their stuff, so I am not here to diss them.

And Khyber,that was a thorough writeup. Hopefully this provides some extra info for those who need it.

[khyber.pass]

@SiST -- I have to admit I'm not sure how to interpret your comments. You don't like the Quadrant's weight in relation to a Factor? What, you want a HEAVIER touring boot? Also, that Pebax does *not* change flex properties in different temperatures is usually considered an advantage of the material, not a downside. That PU changes flex and stiffens when cold is not advantageous and results in inconsistent flex patterns in alpine boots. I get the feeling that you're just used to such crap having become industry standard

@Meathelmet -- great comments, glad to hear the boot is working for you so well. I have a tough time putting on Boosters as they add noticeable weight. I'm trying to find some spare Ghost CS straps, as they do what Boosters do but without the weight of the metal buckle.

As for last size, it grows progressively larger by 2mm, which I didn't realise (sigh) when purchasing 28s, which are a monstrous 103mm (I thought it was a standard 101mm throughout all sizes -- WRONG!). If you have a long narrow foot, you are fucked -- ie size 29 would be 105mm, a 30 = 107mm, etc. Yikes.

BD needs to remold their last but word on the street is we won't see that until 12/13.

[SiSt]

@SiST -- I have to admit I'm not sure how to interpret your comments. You don't like the Quadrant's weight in relation to a Factor? What, you want a HEAVIER touring boot? Also, that Pebax does *not* change flex properties in different temperatures is usually considered an advantage of the material, not a downside. That PU changes flex and stiffens when cold is not advantageous and results in inconsistent flex patterns in alpine boots. I get the feeling that you're just used to such crap having become industry standard

Clarification: I think the factor was too heavy for my intended use. I appreciate that pebax is more consistent than PU in flex, but found the quadrant to flex softer than I expected and would like it to be stiffer. (without adding too much weight of course) Not having skied it, my comments don´t carry much weight, but I´m just wondering and pondering.

Sorry for mentioning both the factor and quadrant in the same sentence, I can see how that led to confusion.

[Meathelmet]

So I´m wondering if anyone has tried stiffening the boot? Thinking possibly about adding material to the inside of the cuff to increase friction with the lower shell or something of the kind? Or if anyone has a different idea?

With the powerwraps,booster straps and the shims Quadrans are as stiff Speedmachine14s and ski as well or better.
And due to the lighter weight of the intuition liners, i think the boot is still 100-200grams lighter than the vanilla boot with original liners...

[SiSt]

^^Thanks, sounds like I´ve found my first pair of touring boots.

[neck beard]

Toe buckle.

One other common complaint concerning shell design is the toe buckle. Why it exists is perhaps a good question given that the Prime eschews it.



[i]Ding ding!

The only thing that the toebuckle does, is that is actually crushes the toebox inwards.
It does not squeeze the shell tighter,it just goes "down". Totally,utterly useless.

I had a huge WTF is the story with this buckle?! moment as well recently.

It amazes me how boot designers can design something so functionally wrong. It also amazes me that the sponsored guys forced to wear a boot with a toe buckle like this never say a word about it in public as the boot gets promoted. The toe-buckle fail is so obvious.

[klikboom]

@khyber.pass: I'm going to try out a 27 on Friday hopefully, did you actually buy a smaller size and have it punched out?

I added my larger cork footbeds and it feels like it helps out a little, but I haven't skied post going with teh corkies. These things are SOO roomy. Seems the worst spot for me is right in front of my ankle bone. It lets me roll my ankle slightly in the boot.

[klikboom]

Forgot to say, I would concur the toe buckle is useless, luckily it is, because the attachment portion filled with ice and I couldn't use it on the way down anyway. I had it hooked at one spot looser for the uphill, thus leaving the desired hook free to collect ice.

[XXX-er]

I've heard the toe buckle is a waste and buddy in a shop recommended just getting the 3 buckle boot instead but I think the dif between the 3 & 4 buckle boot would be more than just the buckle ?

couldnt you just take the buckle off?

I think if the Quadrant fit and I got the boot I would be asking my dealer for a smoking deal on powerwraps to relpace the boa liner

[Meathelmet]

I've heard the toe buckle is a waste and buddy in a shop recommended just getting the 3 buckle boot instead but I think the dif between the 3 & 4 buckle boot would be more than just the buckle ?

couldnt you just take the buckle off?

I think if the Quadrant fit and I got the boot I would be asking my dealer for a smoking deal on powerwraps to relpace the boa liner

AFAIK, I think the issue lies in the flex. The quadrant just feels beefier (and is). If the plan is just to ski skinnier sticks ,or one happens to have the
geographical advantage of skiing mainly pow, then the Prime is fine.
I have found that I ski with the toebuckle open most of the time, but in the afternoon or when going machschnell, I tend to tighten it up proper.
Wich sometimes causes some discomfort,but obviously gives a tad more solid connection to the ski.

[khyber.pass]

@SiST: apologies for the misreading of your comments, of course, the Factor be much heavier, and for that reason it's not really considered a touring-class boot.

@Klik -- haven't gone the 27 route yet, bit of a cost issue, might way until next season.

As for the Primes, they are a great boot but not as stiff. Once you go down in stiffness the field opens up for options (Maestrale, etc). So for me it's the overall flex and stiffness of the Quadrant that keeps it attractive. I'd only consider removing the toe buckle if you are capable of riding in all conditions with it completely undone *and* if you were embarking on a tour that demanded militant attention to weight discipline (ie a multiday skimo objective).

[klikboom]

This is why I bought from REi. They were more than happy to let me switch to the 27 shell. I swapped my powerwrap's over and they punched out the left foot big toe area a bit. I will take these out tomorrow. Although I'll just be in bounds. They really seem to fit a lot better than my 28.5's. I'm stoked to try them out.

[Meathelmet]

Heads up :

Talked with 2 of friends, one with primes and one with Quadrants.

There seems to be an issue with the excessive rubber on the soles and dynafit FT12s.


All three of us have had problems with the toe releasing when skinning (one bloody nose as result..) and even some prerelease issues.
At least in my boots there was so much rubber in the toe,that when clicked in the skin mode, the heel would float couple of cm´s over the heelpiece... Like old school tele boots...
Had to shave a lot of rubber away from the toe area to get it flush and dandy.

Just that people dont get all whacked up,shave your boots if you are having issues!!!


Yes,there are other boots as well in the past that have had the same thing,but...GODDAMMIT!
BD, seriously?? It is 2011 and you cant except the people to "wear out the rubber to remedy the problem" in these times and ages? Eh?

[khyber.pass]

For those interested, I took some pics and edited the review a bit and posted it here:

http://notesfromtheneve.com/2011/03/...mond-quadrant/

Thanks for all your feedback, I did incorporate some of it and noted opinions, as well as linked to this thread.

I still have yet to get 27s and punch/press them. It's a wallet drain at this point...