Review: Binding Freedom Inserts - The Swiss Cheese Experiment

[zeroforhire]

One of the set screws that helped move the sliding arms came loose. You could probably put some loctite on them if you are worried about it. I guess they come that way from the factory now. Pliney equipment replaced my problem jig with a new one. Fantastic customer service. I cannot recommend them highly enough.

[grinch]

Newish posi head screws are awesum/that is All

[Johnny Utah]

So i just put some inserts for a pair of sollyfit plates on a pair of Worth Humpbacks (wood core no metal topsheet). All came out well with the exception of one insert that volcanoed up the topsheet. The volcano starts about 2-5mm from the edge of the insert and is about 1 mm high with the top of the insert being flush with the top of volcano. Im hoping and thinking this shouldn't be any risk as for as having the insert pull out.
Do you think it's alright to grind down the insert and topsheet to make it flush?
Im thinking it was caused by me getting lazy/impatient and screwing in the insert too fast without pushing down hard enough, any other opinions?

Can't find if this was ever answered, but now I've got the same question. Picked up a pair of Praxis BC (standard layup) that were inserted for verticals -- all look great except for one alarmingly high volcano, exactly as described above. Binding won't mount flush. Seems like too much area to grind down. Should I pull and reinstall that one insert? If all fails, I can avoid that hole by either dropping a sollyfit toe over top or upgrading to a radical toe.. hoping to avoid those options.

[whatsupdoc]

Can't find if this was ever answered, but now I've got the same question. Picked up a pair of Praxis BC (standard layup) that were inserted for verticals -- all look great except for one alarmingly high volcano, exactly as described above. Binding won't mount flush. Seems like too much area to grind down. Should I pull and reinstall that one insert? If all fails, I can avoid that hole by either dropping a sollyfit toe over top or upgrading to a radical toe.. hoping to avoid those options.

I'd remove it (heat it with a soldering iron at just reverse it out). Counter sink the topsheet to remove the volcanoed material. You might need to pound down the topsheet a bit with a mallet. Then reinstall.

In general this can be avoided by countersinking the hole. I've had this happen where the epoxy can't escape because it's such a tight fit and then the creeping epoxy causes the topsheet to erupt up while installing.

[Johnny Utah]

I'd remove it (heat it with a soldering iron at just reverse it out). Counter sink the topsheet to remove the volcanoed material. You might need to pound down the topsheet a bit with a mallet. Then reinstall.

In general this can be avoided by countersinking the hole. I've had this happen where the epoxy can't escape because it's such a tight fit and then the creeping epoxy causes the topsheet to erupt up while installing.

Sounds good. about how long with the soldering iron? will this sufficiently warm the entire epoxied area, and whatever may have creeped? i might try heating the whole surrounding topsheet area before trying flatten -- the volcano is pretty wide and solid.

[bern43]

Is the volcanoed material just topsheet? I wouldn't remove the insert if it is. Just remove the volcanoed topsheet area. Lowe's has a little trimming plane that works great for this. Even easier than a razor, which is pretty easy.

[Johnny Utah]

Is the volcanoed material just topsheet? I wouldn't remove the insert if it is. Just remove the volcanoed topsheet area. Lowe's has a little trimming plane that works great for this. Even easier than a razor, which is pretty easy.

tough to say if trimming will be sufficient -- how big a radius would be okay to cut? here's what we're looking at

maybe I'm just going crazy, and praxis really nailed their topo map graphic?

[Andeh]

This seems like the appropriated thread... on a scale of 0 to swiss cheese experiment, how nuts is this mount? I think it will be fine if done right, but never tried something like it.

I'm looking to buy a pair of used Lotus 138s, and found a mag in the BA that has some he'll sell and help me mount for a good price. The catch is he originally mounted them at +0 & +1 for Salomon 307. I want to do a +1 297 Radical mount (DPS recommended). I printed out a couple paper templates, taped a +0 Salomon 307 down, then cut holes in the +1 297 Radical template, laid it overtop, and traced the Rad holes on the Solly template. It looks like the C/C distance from my toe holes will be 7mm. Plan is to fill his old holes with 72hr epoxy & steel wool, then put BF inserts in for the Radicals. I'm only 150 lbs and not hucking stuff with these. Sane or nuts? I figure given the size of the ski, the strength of steel wool reinforced epoxy, the lightness of the load, and the increased pullout area due to the inserts, it should be fine. It's not like Radical toes don't let go at the slightest bit of force unlocked.

The issue would go away if I mounted them on the line, but since both the previous owner and DPS like +1, I'd like to go that way if possible.

[skimaxpower]

This seems like the appropriated thread... on a scale of 0 to swiss cheese experiment, how nuts is this mount? I think it will be fine if done right, but never tried something like it.

I'm looking to buy a pair of used Lotus 138s, and found a mag in the BA that has some he'll sell and help me mount for a good price. The catch is he originally mounted them at +0 & +1 for Salomon 307. I want to do a +1 297 Radical mount (DPS recommended). I printed out a couple paper templates, taped a +0 Salomon 307 down, then cut holes in the +1 297 Radical template, laid it overtop, and traced the Rad holes on the Solly template. It looks like the C/C distance from my toe holes will be 7mm. Plan is to fill his old holes with 72hr epoxy & steel wool, then put BF inserts in for the Radicals. I'm only 150 lbs and not hucking stuff with these. Sane or nuts? I figure given the size of the ski, the strength of steel wool reinforced epoxy, the lightness of the load, and the increased pullout area due to the inserts, it should be fine. It's not like Radical toes don't let go at the slightest bit of force unlocked.

The issue would go away if I mounted them on the line, but since both the previous owner and DPS like +1, I'd like to go that way if possible.

Adding inserts doesn't seem to gain you anything. I'd plug the old holes and just drill for Radicals. If they pull out in the future, THEN you can add inserts.

[Andeh]

Inserts are because I'll probably only use the skis a couple times per season, and don't want to buy an extra pair of ~$350 bindings for that when I can do inserts and swap over my bindings from my daily drivers.

[dschane]

My two cents:

maybe I'm just going crazy, and praxis really nailed their topo map graphic?

I agree with Bern and wouldn't try to remove the insert. If the insert were popping up above the top sheet, it'd be a different case. However, it looks like the insert is flush or below it. The volcano, and yes it's there, is probably because the person didn't tap down far enough but was nonetheless able to drive the insert down (I've been there), though impossible to say for certain. In any event, when you install the bindings, are there any problems? Does it mount flush with the ski? If so, I wouldn't mess with it. And if I did mess with it, I would first try to only minor tinkering to minimize the volcano like a plane.

I'm looking to buy a pair of used Lotus 138s, and found a mag in the BA that has some he'll sell and help me mount for a good price. The catch is he originally mounted them at +0 & +1 for Salomon 307. I want to do a +1 297 Radical mount (DPS recommended). I printed out a couple paper templates, taped a +0 Salomon 307 down, then cut holes in the +1 297 Radical template, laid it overtop, and traced the Rad holes on the Solly template. It looks like the C/C distance from my toe holes will be 7mm. Plan is to fill his old holes with 72hr epoxy & steel wool, then put BF inserts in for the Radicals. I'm only 150 lbs and not hucking stuff with these. Sane or nuts?

Seems sane to me. And, even if it looks too close for your comfort, it also sounds like you have some room to work with. What if you went +1.25 or +0.75 cm -- can't imagine you'd notice a difference in performance and if that gives you sufficient clearance, all the merrier.

[Johnny Utah]

I agree with Bern and wouldn't try to remove the insert. If the insert were popping up above the top sheet, it'd be a different case. However, it looks like the insert is flush or below it. The volcano, and yes it's there, is probably because the person didn't tap down far enough but was nonetheless able to drive the insert down (I've been there), though impossible to say for certain. In any event, when you install the bindings, are there any problems? Does it mount flush with the ski? If so, I wouldn't mess with it. And if I did mess with it, I would first try to only minor tinkering to minimize the volcano like a plane.

It's close, but the volcano does prevent a perfectly flush mount. I wouldn't try correcting it if I wasn't mounting dynafiddles -- the idea of even slightly offset pins makes me wary. Will try planing/trimming to start, working from the insert outwards. I imagine that once I remove a bit of material, I'll find the insert is still slightly above the flat surface of the top sheet. If i have to remove a few mm of material, should I cover up again with an epoxy?

[WyoWill]

It's close, but the volcano does prevent a perfectly flush mount. I wouldn't try correcting it if I wasn't mounting dynafiddles -- the idea of even slightly offset pins makes me wary. Will try planing/trimming to start, working from the insert outwards. I imagine that once I remove a bit of material, I'll find the insert is still slightly above the flat surface of the top sheet. If i have to remove a few mm of material, should I cover up again with an epoxy?

I use a sharp woodworking chisel to make the volcano flush. Place the back of the chisel on the flat top of the ski and pare the volcano off. Much more effective than using a small plane. If you cut through the topsheet, reseal it with epoxy like you would any other chip or scrape in the ski.

[up_down_all_around]

Alright, how about this- Dynafit radical toepiece pulled out this morning. All the pieces stayed attached to my boot, which was great, but now I'm wondering about what to do with the skis. Any idea on whether or not I can install bf inserts in place of the stripped out holes? One is pretty volcanoed, but the rest are still more or less flush. I'm an insert jong, so any help is appreciated. Get some pics up in a bit.

[whatsupdoc]

You should be able to install inserts in the same holes as long as the pulled out holes are smaller than the insert diameter and the core isn't too jacked up in that area. Just trim any volcanoes, re-drill the holes for inserts, and install.

Helicoils are an option as well if you want to just use normal binding screws and not machine screws.

Helicoils should be more forgiving too of any mounting intolerances. The inserts need to be dead on for the rear pin alignment to be maintained. If the holes are jacked up from the pull out and not perfectly centered, it might be more difficult to install inserts in the same holes. Helicoils have a bit more 'slop' inherent in them (although they're still bomber) when you're installing the screws, which gives you a little more wiggle room to get the pin alignment correct when you're tightening everything down.

[skimaxpower]

You should be able to install inserts in the same holes as long as the pulled out holes are smaller than the insert diameter and the core isn't too jacked up in that area. Just trim any volcanoes, re-drill the holes for inserts, and install.

Helicoils are an option as well if you want to just use normal binding screws and not machine screws.

Helicoils should be more forgiving too of any mounting intolerances. The inserts need to be dead on for the rear pin alignment to be maintained. If the holes are jacked up from the pull out and not perfectly centered, it might be more difficult to install inserts in the same holes. Helicoils have a bit more 'slop' inherent in them (although they're still bomber) when you're installing the screws, which gives you a little more wiggle room to get the pin alignment correct when you're tightening everything down.

I agree with all of this. Good advice here.

[up_down_all_around]

Sweet, thanks guys. Skis are on their way to becoming rock skis anyway, so I'll probably go for the inserts for practice if nothing else. We'll see how it goes.

[Muggydude]

I bet inserts will be fine. Use the good 72 hour orange pouch epoxy

[BZWorks]

Hello all, I've read the first page and many of the others but I still need some advice... I'm using inserts on a Lotus 120 and a Spoon but not sure if it's a good idea on a Nina 99 Pure 3 that requires a max. screw length of 6.5mm and a max drill length of 7.5mm.
If I shorten the insert to 7.5mm or even 6.5mm I think I still have enough screw length inside the insert (4 full revolutions) but not sure if the ski will be happy with it...
Any advice or experience with this will be much appreciated Thank you!

[endure]

question about the suggested m5 screws in the tables...

Dynafit vertical FT with brakes. Suggested for the heel is smallhead 12 mm. However, I'm finding that the brake sliding plate cannot slide over top of the heads. Am I doing something wrong or did the screw head sizes possibly change recently?

[endure]

photo of above description

[whatsupdoc]

The pozi smallhead screws that BF is now selling have a fatter/taller head than the old hex screws. The head will protrude from certain holes because of this. Same thing happens with Dukes. Just get some M5 stainless steel hex head machine screws like this:

https://www.boltdepot.com/Metric_soc...m_x_0.8mm.aspx

[endure]

The pozi smallhead screws that BF is now selling have a fatter/taller head than the old hex screws. The head will protrude from certain holes because of this. Same thing happens with Dukes. Just get some M5 stainless steel hex head machine screws like this:

https://www.boltdepot.com/Metric_soc...m_x_0.8mm.aspx

ah, that makes sense. The ones I have are supposedly 12 mm but my ruler measures 14 mm. So is the head profile 2 mm more than it should be with these new screws?

If that is the case, I assume that I would still only want 12 mm on that bolt depot.com site? And is 0.8 mm the thread thickness for the inserts?

[1000-oaks]

Flathead screws are measured by overall length, not the length under the head. The .8mm part is actually called the "thread pitch", and is the thread spacing measurement.

[whatsupdoc]

The M5 x 0.8 mm is the size you want. Yes, the 12 mm ones from bolt depot should work fine. Measure the protrusion from beneath the binding though before installation just to be sure.