Thread: Utah Avalanche photo-of-the-day

Maggot involved in which slide?

This one? I wasn't aware anyone was 'invloved' in this one. I thought it ripped a day or so before this photo was taken.


Edit: Oh, my dumb ass just figured it out. The maggot you speak of who was involved in the Twin Lakes slide? OK.

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Maggot involved in which slide?

Not that slide, but the one involving the fatality. Those doing their homework can figure it out, you'll learn soon enough. It's better to give them time to grieve right now. I feel for you my friend.

Yeah, I remember the 'ing that was going on. But he's a good bloke. I'd ski with him anyday. And hope to again in the future.

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Yeah, I remember the 'ing that was going on. But he's a good bloke. I'd ski with him anyday. And hope to again in the future.

It wasn't flaming, just stating how people were too complacent about the dangers of slides. I've met the cat in person since then, and he seemed like a really cool guy.

Complacency is exactly it.

Like on a bluebird day, after you and your buddies have been skiing all day without incident. Then something goes bad, real bad.

Originally Posted by wra

The answer would be yes it is a good idea to ski right next to the slide, since the slide provides the escape route in case the section you are skiing slides, however, for the best chance of reaching safety, turning toward the old slide, rather than away from it would provide the best chance for success. Gramps is right it ain't the movies.

BTW, I'm not a member of the UAC but an independent contractor with a contract of 120 days observing snow conditions and reporting those observations to the UAC which means I'm paid to ski 5 days a week.
Beats work.

The answer is a little bit more complex than that, for the normal BC skier IMO.

Yes it's ok if...

You know the snow pack.
Why it slid.
What risk is left.
What is below the new surface? (solid snow pack or more weak layers)
etc.

Yes, you do have an escape route in this case but not in all cases. It's amazing what can be left behind that's still unstable. Just because it slid does not give you an open invitation to ski the slope. Know the risks before skiing the slope. The risks must be accessed for each situation every time no exceptions.

Please, if you guys have never taken an avy course GO TAKE ONE.

WRA, seems to know allot about this slope and I'm not here to second guess his assessment in this situation. I just hope the general skier here will ask the right questions before diving in and getting some face shots.

Originally Posted by wra

The answer would be yes it is a good idea to ski right next to the slide, since the slide provides the escape route in case the section you are skiing slides, however, for the best chance of reaching safety, turning toward the old slide, rather than away from it would provide the best chance for success.

So what's your plan if the slide triggered is another layer below the old slide? You going to ski that one out to safety too?

What if when you trigger just the same layer that slid and it sweeps your feet?

You're answer should be, "no, that thing just slid, skiing next to it is a probable trigger as well. Go find some other aspect, or even better go below treeline, dig a pit, and make an educated decision."

No, that's your answer. I gave my answer clearly based on my experience with the snowslides this past week.
No need for drooping below treeline if you want to see what the snow is like. Why not have a look at the crown of the slide. It's right there and no digging is required.
As I said earlier, the slides I have looked at all have stress fractures radiating out from the crown and the path. If Iwas at the top of the hill and saw those stress fractures and knew the slide was a day or more old I would consider them a sign of stability and not instability. If the slide was recent all bets for skiing the slope are off and the angle of the slope to be skied would be most important. I have seen multiple slides run after the initial slide and in the case of a just released slide the bed surface is the safest exit.

As far as taking an avalanche class, great idea. I take two a year and have done so for many years.

Originally Posted by wra

No that's your answer.

wow. what a helpful reply

Originally Posted by wra

No that's your answer.

Cat got your tongue? Thought so.

jesus. lets just knock off the bitchy photo analysis. some of us don't know shit and some of us are professional avalanche analyzers and some of us think we know our shit but we actually don't.

no matter what, total agreement is probably impossible. there is no reason to be a bitch while disagreeing. reference FNG's "how to engage in political discussion" thread if this doesn't make sense.

Definitely humbling, regardless.

Welcome to the madness, WRA. Hope you stay around for a while.

Many good points made in this thread...by several different parties - the consensus seems to be, "be careful, and use common sense as well".

Cheers,
Rock

Originally Posted by wra

No, that's your answer. I gave my answer clearly based on my experience with the snowslides this past week.
No need for drooping below treeline if you want to see what the snow is like. Why not have a look at the crown of the slide. It's right there and no digging is required.

That wouldn't be a bad idea, except that from what I've read this didn't slide from the ground up, and it's possible that there are other weak layers below, not to mention that the crown can still collapse, especially if it slid untriggered like it did.

I have seen multiple slides run after the initial slide and in the case of a just released slide the bed surface is the safest exit.

You're answer has been, "if it slides, here's the best exit".

That's like a weatherman forecasting a tornado in the area, and instead of telling him to LEAVE, you suggest getting in the basement instead.

As far as taking an avalanche class, great idea. I take two a year and have done so for many years.

You having taken a lot of classes means jack. It seems you think your danger of being caught in a slide are less simply because you've attended a few clinics, not because you excercise what you've been taught.

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You having taken a lot of classes means jack. It seems you think your danger of being caught in a slide are less simply because you've attended a few clinics, not because you excercise what you've been taught.

What about this part Blurred?

Originally Posted by wra

I'm not a member of the UAC but an independent contractor with a contract of 120 days observing snow conditions and reporting those observations to the UAC...

What is your job again?

Originally Posted by gonzo

What about this part Blurred?



What is your job again?

He could be a used car salesman telling me how sweet this Ford Pinto is. I'd pass the deal up, but I'm sure you'd value his expertise and buy the thing.

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You having taken a lot of classes means jack. It seems you think your danger of being caught in a slide are less simply because you've attended a few clinics, not because you excercise what you've been taught.

It's more like he teaches 2/yr. in a course that includes some of the best av professionals in the industry. Think twice about discrediting someone who avgs. 8500'/day (or more) 120+ days/yr. for the last 25-30 yrs. WRA probably has a better knack of reading the snow/traveling safely in the BC than anybody in the Wasatch. While I wouldn't buy a used car from him I would trust his avy instincts and judgement. That being said making the conservative choice when in-doubt is never a bad thing either. Since most of us will never have anywhere near the experience of WRA, your choice to avoid the slope is a plausible one as well.

Too Bad Ttips crashed. Two summers ago an entire thread on the Avy forum was dedicated to analyzing what line to take down Silver Fork's west bowl (RB's opening pix). Many of the same arguments showing up in this thread we're made, along w/ addt'l analysis of safe ascent/descent lines.

You're right blurred elevens. I don't know nothiin and I don't give a shit.
Sorry for interupting the discussion. I won't let it happen again.

Originally Posted by wra

BTW, the slide path,



pictured above did not all slide. The looker's left was avalanched a couple of days later by someone apparently unaware that steep slopes without recent avalanches are hazardous and best stayed off of.

Sunday while boarding East Willow & the Beaver ponds I ran into the 2 guys who triggered that slide on Saturday. They we're climbing back out of W. Monitor when two slides ran sympathetically (one on each side of their skin track). Fortunately they chose the only route out that didn't slide, although they admitted to be quite "shaken-up" by the experience. I recall Shredgar saying he took a ride there a few yrs. back as well. As pr eviously noted, it does get heavily wind loaded and is rather steep, 2 key ingredients for slides. As such, those w/out good snow reading/route finding skills should be wary of skiing there.

hey WRA - please stay and continue to share your knowledge with us, and don't let the harsh words and summary judgement of some influence your decision to not join this community. There are far more of us who value what you are contributing than those that appear to not do so....

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

He could be a used car salesman telling me how sweet this Ford Pinto is. I'd pass the deal up, but I'm sure you'd value his expertise and buy the thing.

Blurred, why the thrashing? This guy is out in the area we speak of daily, I think that his observations alone warrant listening to.

I read his posts on T-tips in the "Wasatch" thread every day. They are ALWAYS informative about conditions in the central wasatch. And I know others are checking in daily too.

Originally Posted by Trackhead

I read his posts on T-tips in the "Wasatch" thread every day. They are ALWAYS informative about conditions in the central wasatch. And I know others are checking in daily too.

Not too mention most of the photos in the Av report show up in that thread before they get included in the av report. Plus you get WRA's firsthand snowpack observations, all for free Great educational material and good insight for those planning trips into the Wasatch BC. Thanks WRA.

It's like fighting. No matter how good we think we might be, there's always someone that might come along and teach us a lesson. The basis of humility.

Great input, wra.

Originally Posted by wra

You're right blurred elevens. I don't know nothiin and I don't give a shit.
Sorry for interupting the discussion. I won't let it happen again.

That's great, you've got a camera and taken some pictures of some slides. If you truly do teach, you really should be more cautious with your comments here. People probably respect your experience in terms of vert and years, but you also have a responsibility with that.
These are the facts, as I'm sure you are well aware.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6703641/

http://www.avalanche.org/%7Euac/Acci...2012-10-04.htm

originally quoted by MRA: As far as being a dumb ass for doing so? I have been skiing for the last five days during a period of unstable snow conditions.

You don't sound like a person who takes it very seriously to me, more people have died already this year in slides in your area this year then ALL of last year. Think a guy like you would have more sense then to brag about risking it. Sounds VERY complacent to me.

http://www.avalanche.org/~uac/photos...-w-monitor.jpg
pictured above did not all slide. The looker's left was avalanched a couple of days later by someone apparently unaware that steep slopes without recent avalanches are hazardous and best stayed off of.

After this you then suggest skiing on the side of the slide, also something in which in your own words, "is without avalanches, and best to be stayed off".

You then suggest that the side of slide is now "safe" because it slid yesterday. Did you take into account the previous nights air temperature? How about that the slope in question is wind loaded and simply because a cornice fell off the top means nothing about it's stability in the middle or lower area of the slope? You're the guy that "teaches", so you're well aware that if a slope slides, it can still slide again.

I find it very scary that if it is true that you do "teach about avies to the best av professionals in the industry".

Originally Posted by wra

If those are older than a day, they are a good but not 100% indicator of stability and not instability.

Huh?456789

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

You don't sound like a person who takes it very seriously to me, more people have died already this year in slides in your area this year then ALL of last year. Think a guy like you would have more sense then to brag about risking it. Sounds VERY complacent to me.



After this you then suggest skiing on the side of the slide, also something in which in your own words, "is without avalanches, and best to be stayed off".

You then suggest that the side of slide is now "safe" because it slid yesterday. Did you take into account the previous nights air temperature? How about that the slope in question is wind loaded and simply because a cornice fell off the top means nothing about it's stability in the middle or lower area of the slope? You're the guy that "teaches", so you're well aware that if a slope slides, it can still slide again.

I find it very scary that if it is true that you do "teach about avies to the best av professionals in the industry".

I have no idea what the issue is here fella. I did not start this thread. Someone told me there were pictures of mine posted on this forum, I looked and found a discussion. I made a couple of comments and these are now misquoted in some sort of effort apparently to blame me that people are getting killed by avalanche here in the wasatch.




Someone asked about the safety of skiing beside a slide path. Well, IMHO it is a hell of a lot safer to ski beside an avalanched path than one with no avalanche and windloaded with obvious weak layers as can be seen from the pictures. So I posted a picture. You know if something slid yesterday and a person walks up there and sees the the slide and also sees that the hill has stress fractures across it there is a reason for the cracks and no avalanche. The snow has settled out, tension is relieved and it is unlikely to avalanche. There is no 100%. I will ski those.
I will also ski bed surfaces after slides as can be seen in the above photo. If you take a glance at the photo, the majority of the hill has slid out. What is remaining looker's left has no slide, because the angle in the starting zone is less and not quite enough load to pull out the slope. Would you ski it? The breakover is unsupported and very steep with a slide initiating there likely to pull out snow above. The information I got was that someone had tried to ski that and it avalanched.
Was I there urging them to do so?
You posted links of the reports of people dying here and suggest it is partially my fault or I don't care they died?


There was a thread on ttips with 14000 hits describing snow conditions in the wasatch and those reading the thread combined with the avalanche forecast were the most informed group on snow condtions there could be. That one's gone, so no linky.

I ddn't start this thread nor post my pictures on it for critque. If you don't have a good background in safe travel and routefinding, then, it is best to stay under 30 degrees all the time or at a ski area. Unfortunately many are not doing that and require some knowledge to avoid getting buried. Don't blame me for simply suggesting possible methods of doing so. That's the way I do it most days of winter.
No bragging was involved.These aren't pictures I'd post for bragging rights.

You may shoot me down again if so desired, but I won't have chance to reply for a while. I'm rested and get to go skiing tommorrow.