Utah Avalanche photo-of-the-day

**Summit** · 12-13-2004, 10:35 PM

Skiing something that just slid? Well maybe it's safer than a sister path that hasn't slid yet, but seriously... HANGFIRE

(watched a good video saturday from Dan Moroz of a huge secondary slide from hangfire)

Ski the bed? How about stepdown? (hangfire in the bed above the stepdown? weakened but didn't go? or maybe weakened but it didnt actually step down during the first slide? seen the results of what it can do up close?)

And how are stress cracks a sure sign of stability? Shouldn't you be looking at the quality factor if you want to determine the energy in the snowpack?

**Blurred** · 12-13-2004, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by wra

I have no idea what the issue is here fella. I did not start this thread. Someone told me there were pictures of mine posted on this forum, I looked and found a discussion. I made a couple of comments and these are now misquoted in some sort of effort apparently to blame me that people are getting killed by avalanche here in the wasatch.

Someone asked about the safety of skiing beside a slide path. Well, IMHO it is a hell of a lot safer to ski beside an avalanched path than one with no avalanche and windloaded with obvious weak layers as can be seen from the pictures. So I posted a picture. You know if something slid yesterday and a person walks up there and sees the the slide and also sees that the hill has stress fractures across it there is a reason for the cracks and no avalanche. The snow has settled out, tension is relieved and it is unlikely to avalanche. There is no 100%. I will ski those.
I will also ski bed surfaces after slides as can be seen in the above photo. If you take a glance at the photo, the majority of the hill has slid out. What is remaining looker's left has no slide, because the angle in the starting zone is less and not quite enough load to pull out the slope. Would you ski it? The breakover is unsupported and very steep with a slide initiating there likely to pull out snow above. The information I got was that someone had tried to ski that and it avalanched.
Was I there urging them to do so?
You posted links of the reports of people dying here and suggest it is partially my fault or I don't care they died?

There was a thread on ttips with 14000 hits describing snow conditions in the wasatch and those reading the thread combined with the avalanche forecast were the most informed group on snow condtions there could be. That one's gone, so no linky.

I ddn't start this thread nor post my pictures on it for critque. If you don't have a good background in safe travel and routefinding, then, it is best to stay under 30 degrees all the time or at a ski area. Unfortunately many are not doing that and require some knowledge to avoid getting buried. Don't blame me for simply suggesting possible methods of doing so. That's the way I do it most days of winter.
No bragging was involved.These aren't pictures I'd post for bragging rights.

You may shoot me down again if so desired, but I won't have chance to reply for a while. I'm rested and get to go skiing tommorrow.

WRA, there are a lot of people who want your presence here, so hopefully you're not so timid to let me run you off. However, we've had two maggots in the past two weeks involved in very serious avalanches, and I've had this conversation with both of them beforehand. That's the issue WRA. Let's see you give a seminar on how skiing next to a recently avalanched slope is a good idea, thats rediculous.

**iceman** · 12-13-2004, 10:50 PM

wra, one guy is sniping at you, this is an unmoderated forum and he's allowed. The lack of moderation makes this a great place, sometimes a contentious place, but don't let it get you down.

I would like to see you post here more often, thanks for your contributions.

**iceman** · 12-13-2004, 10:52 PM

And to Blurred's point, that line next to the avy path looks pretty sketch to me too.

**truth** · 12-13-2004, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

wra, one guy is sniping at you, this is an unmoderated forum and he's allowed. The lack of moderation makes this a great place, sometimes a contentious place, but don't let it get you down.

I would like to see you post here more often, thanks for your contributions.

Indeed. Brett, it's all good man, let it go. No one is discounting the risk or the loss suffered this week.

**gimpy** · 12-13-2004, 11:11 PM

blurred is like the high school bully always looking for a fight and summit is his little bitch.

**Summit** · 12-13-2004, 11:11 PM

I must say that I've had the privelage to meet and listen to many many experienced avalanche types from snow safety techs with 30 years experience to the CAIC bunch to NOLS types and various AAA instructors and SAR types. You can assume that Brett is being agressive if you like, but I've got to say that I've never seen an avalanche safety instructor exhibit as little safety conservatism in publicly issued "advice" as this wra gentlemen is demonstating in his attitude here. (not to mention bragging about skiing during extreme danger level)

As the patrol snow safety head from copper said: don't ever think a slope is safe just because it slid... and there are no experts, we only observe mother nature. beware of the "experts"

And somoene from CAIC said something along the lines of the more experience one gets, the more cautious they become because they have the opportunity to see more and more how mother nature fails to be match predictions and indications

and the popular adage: "the avalanche doesn't know who the expert is"
and McCammon's corollary: "the avalanche doesn't care that you are a local"

**Ted Stryker** · 12-13-2004, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by gimpy

blurred is like the high school bully always looking for a fight and summit is his little bitch.

Does that make you the little beater bitch blowing him in the bathroom stall?

**truth** · 12-13-2004, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ted Stryker

Does that make you the little beater bitch blowing him in the bathroom stall?

So glad I'm unemployed to be able to take all of the tgr madness in.

**The Yeti** · 12-13-2004, 11:31 PM

This is a perfect example of why stoopid inferior humans will always be nothing but food to me whether I get them warm and screaming, or in WRA's case, after they melt out of slide debris in the summer. Human Factors in Avalanche Accidents indeed!

tuffy 1O9 · 12-13-2004, 11:37 PM

Let's take all the republicans skiing with WRA.......

**Xover** · 12-14-2004, 07:01 AM

WOW,

Hope you're still around cause I gots a legit question for ya;
why, if older than a day would cracks signify a stabilizing of the pack vs. a de-stabilizing?

Also, just like Trackhead I too read your daily's over at ttips and greatly appreciate them - please don't let Blurred get under your skin - he's not worth the frustration.

Edit: no need to reply, just saw the answer buried amongst the rest of it - thanks - and it makes sense.

**Agent 00X** · 12-14-2004, 08:11 AM

Thank you WRA.

Could somebody describe specifically (or place a big fat red X at the crown) on a Topozone map where the Silver Fork slide pictured in Red Baron's first post is? And any other recent slides or deaths too. Thanks.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=...83&layer=DRG25

**half-fast** · 12-14-2004, 08:22 AM

wra:

I may be a dumb ass but I'm smarter than the majority commenting on this thread.

Its been my experience that those who claim to be smarter than everyone else, usually aren't.

**Trackhead** · 12-14-2004, 08:28 AM

Hangfire:
If the slope slid near the top, there isn't much 'hang' in the 'fire'. So I imagine when WRA speaks of skiing areas that have slid, this is what he is talking about. I was out with the local forecaster in Logan the other day, checking out crowns, etc. He mentioned that 'hangfire' can be a potential problem, but in many cases, the slope has released it's tension, and the hangfire is a non-issue.

This crown we were checking out had only 10ft. of slope above us. Not much 'hang' in this fire.

Skiing next to slide paths:
I tried this once on Raymond, it didn't work. We skinned up the ridge, there were a few 8-10" soft slabs that had slid spontaneouly. So we decided to ski down one of them for a safe exit. As I'm skiing down, I decide to make a couple turns outside the path (10 ft to the side in the pow). Bad idea, it slid on the third turn and I was barely able to ski back into the previous path. These were small slides (30ft wide-8" deep-minimal debris piles), but were quite powerful enough to know you off your feet. Since then, skiing pow next to something that has slid is not in my bag of tricks.

On a side note: This isn't a political thread, it's much more serious than that bullshit. Try to keep it informative, and not a bunch of shit tossing. Something good might actually come of it.

**Stanley** · 12-14-2004, 08:38 AM

good thread, even with all the machismo spewed about.
Blurred, i think your an ass and need serious help, but being argumentative helped this thread.
Good stuff.

**Blurred** · 12-14-2004, 09:04 AM

These people died listening to a "so-called" expert. It was 2 years ago next month.

http://www.jodessa.com/durrand/durrandreport16.pdf

**iceman** · 12-14-2004, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

These people died listening to a "so-called" expert. It was 2 years ago next month.

http://www.jodessa.com/durrand/durrandreport16.pdf

Wow, all I read was the executive summarry, but it sounds like they couldn't have done much more wrong.

**PNWbrit** · 12-14-2004, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by iceman

Wow, all I read was the executive summarry, but it sounds like they couldn't have done much more wrong.

That report was commissioned by one of the victims families - it's probably going to be used as part of a law suit. Don't read too much into it's "findings".

Undoubtedly Reudi had a very bad day. Amongst his peers he remains one of the most respected mountain guides in the world.

**silas** · 12-14-2004, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

These people died listening to a "so-called" expert. It was 2 years ago next month.

http://www.jodessa.com/durrand/durrandreport16.pdf

Did you read the report?

**gonzo** · 12-14-2004, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

These people died listening to a "so-called" expert. It was 2 years ago next month.

http://www.jodessa.com/durrand/durrandreport16.pdf

Craig Kelly, an "expert" himself if there ever was one, died in that slide too. But that has nothing to do with anything in Utah now, now does it?

I really don't understand why you spew shit like this.

**slippy** · 12-14-2004, 10:44 AM

Is the 'ignore member' function gone now? I can't find it and really need it.

WRA, thanks for the posts, we appreciate it.

**Foggy_Goggles** · 12-14-2004, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by gonzo

Craig Kelly, an "expert" himself if there ever was one, died in that slide too.

Not to stir the pot, make presumptions or disrespect the dead but, I saw a couple of snowboard videos where Craig was, from my perspective on the other side on the screen, violating major bc travel protocols. The world is not black and white, it is gray. Collectively will can learn a ton from each other. Be safe.

**PNWbrit** · 12-14-2004, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles

Not to stir the pot, make presumptions or disrespect the dead but, I saw a couple of snowboard videos where Craig was, from my perspective on the other side on the screen, violating major bc travel protocols. The world is not black and white, it is gray. Collectively will can learn a ton from each other. Be safe.

You really can't compare BC travel protocols on a video shoot with the everyday safety measures we should all be learning and practicing. I for one don't have a helicopter, snow saftey pro, a couple of guides and half a dozen pairs of eyes on me everytime I go out.

**Shredgar** · 12-14-2004, 10:56 AM

From today's UAC advisory:

Good Morning. This is Evelyn Lees with the Forest Service Utah Avalanche Center with your backcountry avalanche and mountain weather advisory. Today is Tuesday, December 14, 2004, and it’s 7:30 in the morning...continue to stay off of steep slopes that haven’t slid.

Any comments?

For whatever reason, at Durrand Ruedi stacked two groups in a known slidepath with known deep instabilities with tragic consequences. La Traviata hadn't slid, the load was still there, waiting for a trigger.

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