Thread: Plum guide tech binding

i personally set mine to 2.5 Nm (i.e. just barely tight), since the threads are so fine and small.

Hi timetoclmb - just wondering what you did with your spinners in the end? After reading this thread I checked mine out before they've been used, waiting for Scottish snow and the alps end of Jan. 1 of 8 top plate T10 screws was a spinner - no resistance to turning from the get go, so like yours I suspect stripped at factory assembly. The others took a slight turn and then seemed tight.

Have emailed Plum tonight - they've responded fairly promptly to me in the past on queries with brakes, request for a jig etc and been helpful, despite alexis assuring me braked would be available and retro-fittable, neither of which was true.

I'd be interested to hear what you and the collective think I should do. I'm not keen to replace them with dynafits - don't want to re-drill skis.

Cheers,

Pete

^Hey, I haven't really done anything with them. I'm hoping that Plum steps up once the holidays are done. Since they are under warranty I do not want to modify them in anyway that will void that. Given that I am absolutely 100% certain they were spinners from the factory i'm hoping that they fix or replace the heels and at the same time I would like to purchase a couple spare pins.

I have another mellow touring day on them but I don't really want to use them on longer tours right now incase they torque / pull out or something. I plan on using them on some long tours and multi days and I want them as you would expect a new product to be.

Was the Maggot group buy directly from Plum or via a dealer in euro land?

I just picked up my 11/12 Plums, all top plate screws were pretty good but managed to snug them down a little bit. Would you guys recommend dismantling and threadlocking these, or just skiing them but keeping an eye on them?

Also, I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread and others but I can't find it: what's the recommended heel gap for the Plum Guide? EDIT: found it in the French instructions: "The distance between the central point of the heel of the boot and the rear stop must imperatively be 4mm. The Torx key provided is 4mm section, and can act as a template".

My model features the mysterious extra heel attachment screw as mentioned previously in this thread, also seen in Jackass's Gear Swap thread where I bought them: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...IDES-2011-2012 . Rumours in this thread suggest this is for some sort of adjustable heel support add-on mechanism to take stress off the pins, need to wait and see what Plum come out with. I really don't see why a brake couldn't be mounted in this spot also, but local info says a completely new (wider?) toe plate design will be released for 12/13 incorporating a brake.

I did a quick test mount on a 2x4 last night using the R1 paper template. Toe looked good, heel looked slightly out. Jondrums suggested that Plum might now have corrected the mount pattern to match Dynafit exactly. My boot's midsole ended up about 2mm forward of where I lined up the template and the heel gap looks pretty small with the heelpiece in the middle of the track. I'll do a more accurate test this week with the current Dynafit and Plum templates and confirm things in this thread and the paper templates one.

The bindings will be going on Watea 101s with Bodacious boots. After measuring all of my setups it looks like the Plum + Bodacious will give about 6mm more delta/ramp than the Bodacious in my other setups (a mix of Salomon/FKS/Marker, some with the alpine soles, some with AT), so I've ordered some Sollyfit toes to level things out and also give a wider toe mount pattern to the ski.

Originally Posted by gregL

The old Speed was super reliable, and I never had one auto-rotate on me. The auto-rotation, IME, happens in situations where wet snow builds up in cones on top of Comfort or ST/FT volcanoes while skinning on the low or middle climbiing positions, then freezes as you gain elevation but before you switch to high climbing position, at which stage you have an icy point under your heel that tends to push the heel to the side with some boot soles. I'm not sure I see the anti-rotation pin as progress - almost certainly it lessens the strength of the pivot post. If they want to keep the pin, it looks like they will need to substantially increase the wall thickness of the housing, or as you say, find a less brittle material.

I think the auto rotate problem is down to the comforts little step-up plastic bit beneath the heel. I would say that "auto rotate" incidents are very common.

Some info on the radical incidents. I now have heard of 3 French failures (without really looking for them). We've had locks in climb position, a lock in descent position and a heelpiece that would not lock at all. I agree I don't see why you couldn't ski reasonable slopes under those circumstances but obviously anything steep would almost certainly need to be downclimbed. The current fix being applied seems to be to remove the pin.

Plum had issues with the early version of their ski touring binding (the Touring Plum) over here. They brought in a specialized materials engineer to modify the design. Contrary to what has been posted here the binding was in production a couple of years before the current incarnation releases in 2010/11. I've not heard of any Euro issues with the current bindings. But then again the average ski width is probably around 75-80mm here.

Here is the original binding

^^^That is a low blow from PLUM... OG had flanges but the guide does not.. Meaning Dyna brakes were originally compatible.... = Fail. Really cool company just wish they could have thought some of their design processes through a little better.

Originally Posted by shirk

Was the Maggot group buy directly from Plum or via a dealer in euro land?

through plum
got to say I'm not being super impressed
but then again aside from a few ffl studs the french have never impressed me with much except being french
Hell I hear the lizzard king isn't even buried there anymore.

Originally Posted by BamBam_540

My boot's midsole ended up about 2mm forward of where I lined up the template

a couple quick q's:
did you verify your BSL prior to drilling?
did you vitrify your BSLine is exactly in the center of the boot?
relative to BOTH the alpine lugs and the dynafit fittings?

Originally Posted by sqikunst

^^^That is a low blow from PLUM... OG had flanges but the guide does not.. Meaning Dyna brakes were originally compatible.... = Fail.

I'm not sure those flanges are there to hold brakes down (and I doubt very much that the post is notched to hold Dynafit brakes). Probably it's there as a "half-step" climbing riser like the Comfort/ST/FT that Dynafit played up as a "significant" advantage in low angle and rolling terrain a few years back. I can't see but I doubt there's one on the other side of the heelpiece.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

a couple quick q's:
did you verify your BSL prior to drilling?
did you vitrify your BSLine is exactly in the center of the boot?
relative to BOTH the alpine lugs and the dynafit fittings?

None of the above. Will check all of this when I do a more accurate test mount.

Originally Posted by adrenalated

One of my coworkers straight up exploded a Plum Guide a couple weeks ago at Loveland on a demo day. The binding was on a Black Diamond demo ski, and the rep who set the bindings (a respected member of the TGR community) is positive that she set the bindings correctly. The plastic around the pins on the heel shattered and the entire heel unit was shoved backwards on the track.

This happened on the new BD Justice 185cm (a fairly soft ski), on a blue groomer at Loveland in the middle of a turn, big/powerful guy with a Scarpa Skookum boot. Our theory is that he flexed the ski hard enough to shorten the distance between the toe and heel of the binding, the binding hit his boot heel and broke. Wish I had taken a picture of the binding. He normally skis Dynafit Vertical FT12s on 191cm Voile Chargers with no issues.

So I guess make that three failures, not two.

Originally Posted by sqikunst

"She" set the bindings correctly..

Naw jk...

Originally Posted by Big Steve

I smell a misadjustment re this recent failure...

Originally Posted by adrenalated

The black section of the binding below the pins. Maybe I remembering incorrectly and this is aluminum too? Either way, that material had shattered.

The binding didn't just move backwards on the track, it had broken at the base of the heel tower and bent at an angle. Tough to describe without a picture. That said, the scenario you present (not tightening the heel onto the track enough) does make sense and is certainly a possibility.

I am the "she" that set the bindings at the shop employee demo at Loveland. Never would I thought I'd have to come on here to defend myself or my ability to adjust a binding, but this particular issue strikes a chord to what's near and dear to me: the safety of others who put their trust in me as I send them out on gear that I've adjusted. I've worked hard to get where I am and I take pride in my work. It is my job to ensure that every single binding I adjust is set to exacting measures as specified by the manufacturer, be it Marker, BD, Plum, Dyna, Fritschi, or any other binding. It is my responsibility to ensure the safety of all skiers that I send out on our gear- testers and consumers alike. I do not take this job lightly. If it were a maladjustment on my part I would be the first to admit. Transparency, full disclosure, and knowledge of how things work is important to me.

The heel adjustment/space was set to 4mm using the proper tool and spacer. The screws were also tight (but not stripped at this point- read on), there had not been many skiers take out the 185 Justices yet, maybe 3 or 4 other testers that week not including the 2 other reps I work with. Granted, in years past the Justice was fairly soft- the carbon runners stiffen it up quite a bit for this season- it's not a noodle by any means. That being said, I saw this particular tester make some turns later in the day after the Plum breakage- he was on his own set-up and he clearly knew the limitations of his gear and skied the conditions appropriately. So we also ruled out any yahooing on the demos (it happens on Richard's knoll often, especially during shop demos where testing the gear is the name of the game). It is my understanding it was on the second run when the binding failed.

When observing the broken heel piece, the right screw for the heel adjustment was raised up a little, the head was not threaded flat. The left screw was exactly where it should have been. The heel piece did not "move" or adjust itself on the demo plate, but rather the angulation of the entire piece was slanted as such that it honestly did look like compression of some sorts. The binding did not "shatter" as glass but there were cracks all over the polymer and around where the pins are visible. In retrospect we should have taken it apart to inspect the pins. We notified all BD reps across the country as we mounted many of our demos with the Plum Guides to keep them informed and keep everyone on the same page. We also notified the local shop where we bought the demo bindings from (we couldn't get them direct from France).

We discussed this over the sales meeting last month, as other reps had not observed the single failure such as what we saw, but most of us came to the conclusion after various demos over the course of the last month that the screws for the heel adjustments strip very easily; this is likely what caused the failure though nothing remains certain or confirmed. We have swapped out all of the screws on the heel adjustments for a screw that was sourced by the powers that be at BD that uses a 3mm allen as we prepare our 2012 skis for the tradeshow demos over the next month. These skis will get hammered by buyers and shop staff across the globe and by many on this board.

Myself and a few other reps will continue to ski the Plums even after this incident because frankly, as Marshall says below, this kind of stuff does happen at a demo and truthfully, we were not shocked by it. Certainly it made us all more aware, but on the flipside we had not heard of any other failures up to this point. When we tested next years' skis internally at BD at Snowbird last month, the only run that was open was RJ, and the conditions were the same as what were on Loveland that day: firm. If any of you have participated in the ski testing with BD, and I know some of you have, you understand the amount of stress the gear is put through by the team and athletes, and at a vigorous and very structured pace at that. Adjust bindings. Tram lap. Swap skis. Repeat. There were no reported problems other than lack of snow. If something were inherently wrong with the construction of the bindings, if there was a weakness of some sort that results in such a quick breakdown of the materials, I would have thought to see something happen during this time. But again other variables may come into play as others have stated. Nonetheless I will continue to keep my ears open and rest assured others are watching this thread to follow any further developments.

While this does not address the issues with pins that are being reported here, I hope to shed more light on one of the particular failures.

I still have faith in this binding even after witnessing the one pair fail. Perhaps that is my exposure from working demos for the last decade, I dunno. I've seen just about everything broken at least once in some spectacular fashion or another. I have been using these on Justice 175s, and admit I have even skied them inbounds, though I'm light and maybe at 55% as I recover from an injury. Anyway, I will continue to use them personally for touring, but will also be swapping my heel adjustment screws and be checking the others frequently (as in ski with tools in my pack).


Cheers,

Jax

Originally Posted by marshalolson

tech bindings break when you ski them inbounds. it just is what it is.

Originally Posted by sqikunst
"She" set the bindings correctly..
Naw jk...

I meant it as a joke. I wish there were more women setting skis up at my shop means I could go skiing more often but it pretty common that when we have a girl standing at a set up table people avoid her. Its Lame I know but thats the way it is....

Jax, did you check the tightness of the top-plate screws in the heel piece? Not trying to call you out, I'm just curious. Certainly not questioning your ability to safely adjust a binder, but I was kinda hoping the pin failure was caused by either the top-plate screws or the heel-adjustment screws.

EDIT: Oops, didn't misread the failure with which Jax was involved. Thought it was a heel pin that failed, but I was clearly mistaken. I'm sure Jax knows more than I about the Guides, so I prolly shouldn't have asked the question.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

Jax, did you check the tightness of the top-plate screws in the heel piece? Not trying to call you out, I'm just curious. Certainly not questioning your ability to safely adjust a binder, but I was kinda hoping the pin failure was caused by either the top-plate screws or the heel-adjustment screws.

There was no obvious pin failure that we are aware of in this particular case. Top screws were tight. All of this gets checked each time. It's a very methodical process when sending stuff out.

I'm out for the night. Happy New Year.

Here is an email I just got from Plum a week after I sent them the question:
"The torque required is 2N.m
A blue loctite will not damage the plastic. However, if it is still the screws are still loose, please let me know, and we'll proceed and exchange."

As I said, CS seems good but slow.

Harpo & others: do you think putting Loctite on all screws is a good idea or unnecessary? All of my screws snugged up fine. Maybe some potential to damage threads pulling screws in and out? Better just leave them but check every week?

Mine were slightly loose so I added loctite, It's a small screw that will be subjected to a great deal of vibration so I think its a good idea.

Heard back from Plum. They are replacing my heels. Return email back to them was answered right away this time.

I haven't read the whole thread but all I can say is that I'm glad to have my Vertical FTs while you guys sort this stuff out

Sorry, not helpful at all...

Posting this in the Plum thread and paper template thread for reference:

I just finished a more accurate test mount of my 11/12 Plums. The Plum R1 template is a little out for both toe and heel so I used the Dynafit R2 template instead. The toe is correct. The heel required the rear two holes to be moved back 0.75mm (9px at 300ppi). I don't have a 4mm key/spacer but with a ruler this adjusted template looks to give a 4mm heel gap with the heel in the middle of the track. My boot's midsole mark is a little off (thanks Marshall), so fore/aft positioning is correct.

NOTE: My printer is an absolute piece of shit, and I have to do some weird scaling in order to print any template true-to-size. I'm pretty confident this is irrelevant to the above adjustments, but someone should verify my findings before publishing a definitive Plum 11/12 template.

I spotted a local (guide?) today with some sort of Plums with wide plates. I got a quick shot (very poor quality, it was dark waiting for the lift) but had a good look at them before this. The toe looked like a normal Plum toe mounted to an additional plate which had a mounting pattern about 7-8cm square. The heel had a completely different baseplate to the existing Plum Guide, with a mounting pattern about 7-8cm wide also. The rest of the heelpiece looked identical. No brakes, but they did have a black rubber bumper for the heel of the boot to rest on, as has been rumoured here.



Also saw another skier this morning using what looked like an old set of Dynafit Speeds with additional wide mounting plates, which looked exactly like those used on the new Plum toe above, and something very similar at the heel. 5-7mm thick, mount pattern about 7-8cm wide.

Niceley done, but how about the flat touring mode? Maybe the rubber heel support swing aside?

Originally Posted by BamBam_540

The heel had a completely different baseplate to the existing Plum Guide, with a mounting pattern about 7-8cm wide also. The rest of the heelpiece looked identical.

Looks like the heelpiece housing is alloy instead of black plastic . . .

I've been following this thread closely as I purchased Plums last year but didn't ski them until recently. A couple things I've noticed...
+ folks shouldn't get their panties in a bundle regarding the lack of brakes. Brakes on tech bindings suck. They are a pain when transitioning and if conditions are at all wet, they don't engage most of the time anyways. Ski without them. I have for 6 seasons now and haven't had an issue. Obviously inbounds skiing is different (you don't want a missile beheading somebody), but these are touring bindings. You shouldn't be skiing them at the resort anyways! Buy some inserts and swap your bindings.
+ failures are bound to happen. Look at all the Duke AFD plate failures. People still buy and ski those bindings hard. It seemed to me rumors of Plum failures spread like wildfire and was only fueled by a lack of response on Plums part. I'm glad to hear they are returning emails and replacing parts.
+ having said that, I did have some issues with one of my toe pieces while on a hut trip over new years. While skinning in I began to notice some play in one toe. I fiddled with the walk ski lever a few times but still had play. Finally I stopped, took off my ski, cleared the snow and found one of the pins that the toe arm pivots on had backed out about half way. I was lucky to catch it before it fell out and was lost! I tapped it back in and looked closely to see why it had come out and what was suppose to hold it in place. It appears the pins are inserted and then the aluminum housing (body of the binding) is pressed or stamped around it to prevent it from backing out. This one in particular wasn't pressed/stamped enough and the pin was able to work itself out while touring. I monitored it during the trip, pressing it back in once a day or so. Once I got home 2 minutes with a hammer and a punch did the trick, forcing a small amount of material over the pin hole preventing it from backing out. No biggie. But I'm watching them closely until I know the binding better and have complete confidence in them.
+ thanks Jax for all your input and detailing your experience with demos and the binding break-age you experienced. Some folks are just hard on their gear. They break things, no matter how burly the gear is. I think swapping the torques bit adjustment screws for allen heads is a good idea. The stripping you encountered, was it the head of the torques screw or the threads? Have you been putting locktite on these?
+ lastly, I love the fact that these are French and info about new designs is shrouded in mystery and fuzzy cell phone photos! A wider base? Makes sense. Since Dynafit changed their hole pattern (IMO to deter the knock offs) why wouldn't Plum (whose is now getting a following) have their own pattern and one that might actually benefit a wider ski / beefier boot?