Thread: Plum guide tech binding

On closer look at BamBam's photo, the heal housing appears to be machined aluminum instead of the black polymer... interesting indeed! Stronger? Less stripping? Heavier? Cool.

. . . but the part that people are breaking (the small pieces that hold the heel pins) looks like it is still black plastic. Aluminum body might allow for more torque on the screws that hold down the top plate.

Those wide baseplates are really cool, but definitely aren't the Duke/Baron pattern I was hoping for so I could use the inserts already in all my skis. Wouldn't be an issue for someone mounting on new skis though, or who isn't trying to use just one or two pair of bindings on all of their skis.

That aluminum heel body looks amazing, kudos to Plum for pushing the envelope!

Originally Posted by gregL

. . . but the part that people are breaking (the small pieces that hold the heel pins) looks like it is still black plastic. Aluminum body might allow for more torque on the screws that hold down the top plate.

Wonder if they could do these pieces in stainless steel? Even greased, the friction against the aluminum might be too much and screw up the vertical release values...shouldn't affect horizontal release though.

Jax, great write-up, appreciate all the detail. Two days ago while skiing my Freerides with Plums, I caught a miniscule amount of air off a roller, and when coming back to the ground found that my skis were missing. One was a proper release that took place after my first ski released. As I examined that ski, one of the two screws that hold the heelpiece on the track had loosened, and that side only had slid backward by about 1.5 hashmarks on the basepiece. It seems clear to me that in the heel failure that was experienced, one or both of the screws holding the heelpiece on the track loosened, and in the process of being released from the heelpiece, the skiers boot came back down on top of the heelpiece unit after it had slid slightly on the tracks, resulting in the breakage of the plastic. Fortunately, only one of my screws had worked loose, and the entire heelpiece was not in the path of my boot during the fall. Since I had tightened the screws after reading this thread, only three days of fairly moderate use and that screw had still loosened. As I examined the heel unit, it seems to me the only bombproof way to guarantee no movement on those tracks is using a longer screw and connecting the unit directly to the ski. Since I am fairly certain that I am immortal, I instead simply backed out and re-tightened all of the screws using locktite. Knowing what I now know about this binding, and how easy it is for the screws to loosen even when certain that they are tight, if I were not immortal it would take quite a bit of convincing to get me to use these on a pair of demos. With the constant movement up and down that track, and the abuse that the skis get, it seems like a Jon Spencer's Blues Explosion waiting to happen.

QUESTION:

So is anyone putting something under the heel? I heard a cork and maybe plastic platform... Did anyone really end up doing it?

Planned on doing it today but had nothing suitable in the shop. Whatever I use, I'm going to secure it to the ski with dual sided velcro tape so I can remove it when touring to access the lowest position. Will probably use cork.

Thumbs up on Jax's skills. Worked with her many years she is thorough. Glad to see Plum in contact now. Yes with Alexis in place communication was easier. I have been in contact with Plum and the reply I received stated pin failures were from an early batch. I do not see the pin breakage as a major issue. Bummer yes, communication was the real issue and seems to be resolved. I have worked in this industry many years and I assure you there is no binding in this category that has not had it's issues. This category is being pushed beyond it's initial intention and no more than in the home town of this blog. This is the think tank for progress for development in a true (4 point contact) free ride binding. It is not here yet from anybody.
One thing is sure and that is innovation is coming and it's coming out of a small machine shop in France.
On another note. I don't believe that the bumper you see here is for the boot to rest on while skiing. All four point bindings a designed to use the integrity of the boot in the interface. That would affect the release values. I believe it is for the boot to rest on in tour mode as the PLUM binding does not have a tour step integrated into the lowest walk mode. I am psyched to see someone make a wide platform and believe me it's for the North American market. That blurry picture is the best thing I have seen all year. I hope they keep the guide as it is a great binding without brakes. But I hope to see a 'Fat Cat' people can put on A Faction 13 ski someday. It looks to me like they are listening.

Yea, I like the looks of those wide base plates, the only bummer is I just drilled 3 pairs of skis with inserts for the current pattern! Looks like I'll have to get new skis with the new bindings

That is a potential bummer but maybe not. What skis did you drill? You might be better suited using a guide on one or two of the rigs. I have cleaned up many Dynafit miss mounts over the years. Depending on the integrity of the ski, ie metal top sheet or wood core, titanal plate or no plate, shooting into foam or redwood you might be able to save the mounts and not affect integrity. I found that if you have about 5mm of clearance on a good wood core your ok. Metal just makes it a bonus. I am just speculating here but those new binders look to have at least 5 mm between old drill pattern and new. I also have moved the toes forward 2 to 3 mm and people have better turn annitiation. What I am saying is there is a lot you can do the mounts are not necessarily waisted. When testing skis sometimes we have mounted them 3 or 4 times with different bindings sometimes just checking performance by moving the same binder around. Testing in all conditions hard with little issues of failure. Cosmetically you could be good and the new binder would cover it. This does not address the issue of no brake. But if that is a deal breaker ( no pun intended) I would sell the guides you have and put a dynafit with a brake on for the current season and sell them off at the end of the year. Dynafit still makes an awesome binding. Nothing wrong with it. That would allow you the dyna duke swap which sounds to be the important thing here for you. Not that hard to get most of your money back on a good rig mounted Dynafit. Check the ski and check the core sections for what wood layup you have. There are some people following this thred with some good experience. Someone will have a good fix to live with. After all that is what we have hear is a mind pool.

I had put a small plastic shim under the heel years ago with the TLT speed classics. I used the small plastic heel block that used to (or still does) come with the Scarpa F1 and F3.



It did not contact the heel of the boot unless the ski was flexed strangely . i.e. in a deep depression or over a mogul type feature. It did provide a nice slightly more than flat touring setting. Anyhow, I found that this was a worthless addition and haven't done it since...

I have also seen more than a few glued cork/neoprene/nylon shim etc that rando racers have used in place of the pieces above, and found that almost all of them completely fall off the ski in that very high use part of the binding. It's just not worth the benefits, and as others have pointed out, could affect the release of the heel in this configuration.

Nice spy shots!! What skis are those on with the wide base plates?

Anyhow, I'm off to put quiver killers for PLUM/Duke in my fattest skis! Wish me luck!

Originally Posted by mikebrom

Nice spy shots!! What skis are those on with the wide base plates?

Looks like Legend Pro 105's - if so that's a pretty substantial base plate!

Jax, where did the heel adj. screw strip? Head / threads? What screw are u using instead?

Originally Posted by Jax

I am the "she" that set the bindings at the shop employee demo at Loveland. Never would I thought I'd have to come on here to defend myself or my ability to adjust a binding, but this particular issue strikes a chord to what's near and dear to me: the safety of others who put their trust in me as I send them out on gear that I've adjusted. I've worked hard to get where I am and I take pride in my work. It is my job to ensure that every single binding I adjust is set to exacting measures as specified by the manufacturer, be it Marker, BD, Plum, Dyna, Fritschi, or any other binding. It is my responsibility to ensure the safety of all skiers that I send out on our gear- testers and consumers alike. I do not take this job lightly. If it were a maladjustment on my part I would be the first to admit. Transparency, full disclosure, and knowledge of how things work is important to me.

The heel adjustment/space was set to 4mm using the proper tool and spacer. The screws were also tight (but not stripped at this point- read on), there had not been many skiers take out the 185 Justices yet, maybe 3 or 4 other testers that week not including the 2 other reps I work with. Granted, in years past the Justice was fairly soft- the carbon runners stiffen it up quite a bit for this season- it's not a noodle by any means. That being said, I saw this particular tester make some turns later in the day after the Plum breakage- he was on his own set-up and he clearly knew the limitations of his gear and skied the conditions appropriately. So we also ruled out any yahooing on the demos (it happens on Richard's knoll often, especially during shop demos where testing the gear is the name of the game). It is my understanding it was on the second run when the binding failed.

When observing the broken heel piece, the right screw for the heel adjustment was raised up a little, the head was not threaded flat. The left screw was exactly where it should have been. The heel piece did not "move" or adjust itself on the demo plate, but rather the angulation of the entire piece was slanted as such that it honestly did look like compression of some sorts. The binding did not "shatter" as glass but there were cracks all over the polymer and around where the pins are visible. In retrospect we should have taken it apart to inspect the pins. We notified all BD reps across the country as we mounted many of our demos with the Plum Guides to keep them informed and keep everyone on the same page. We also notified the local shop where we bought the demo bindings from (we couldn't get them direct from France).

We discussed this over the sales meeting last month, as other reps had not observed the single failure such as what we saw, but most of us came to the conclusion after various demos over the course of the last month that the screws for the heel adjustments strip very easily; this is likely what caused the failure though nothing remains certain or confirmed. We have swapped out all of the screws on the heel adjustments for a screw that was sourced by the powers that be at BD that uses a 3mm allen as we prepare our 2012 skis for the tradeshow demos over the next month. These skis will get hammered by buyers and shop staff across the globe and by many on this board.

Myself and a few other reps will continue to ski the Plums even after this incident because frankly, as Marshall says below, this kind of stuff does happen at a demo and truthfully, we were not shocked by it. Certainly it made us all more aware, but on the flipside we had not heard of any other failures up to this point. When we tested next years' skis internally at BD at Snowbird last month, the only run that was open was RJ, and the conditions were the same as what were on Loveland that day: firm. If any of you have participated in the ski testing with BD, and I know some of you have, you understand the amount of stress the gear is put through by the team and athletes, and at a vigorous and very structured pace at that. Adjust bindings. Tram lap. Swap skis. Repeat. There were no reported problems other than lack of snow. If something were inherently wrong with the construction of the bindings, if there was a weakness of some sort that results in such a quick breakdown of the materials, I would have thought to see something happen during this time. But again other variables may come into play as others have stated. Nonetheless I will continue to keep my ears open and rest assured others are watching this thread to follow any further developments.

While this does not address the issues with pins that are being reported here, I hope to shed more light on one of the particular failures.

I still have faith in this binding even after witnessing the one pair fail. Perhaps that is my exposure from working demos for the last decade, I dunno. I've seen just about everything broken at least once in some spectacular fashion or another. I have been using these on Justice 175s, and admit I have even skied them inbounds, though I'm light and maybe at 55% as I recover from an injury. Anyway, I will continue to use them personally for touring, but will also be swapping my heel adjustment screws and be checking the others frequently (as in ski with tools in my pack).


Cheers,

Jax

Originally Posted by dynamike

Planned on doing it today but had nothing suitable in the shop. Whatever I use, I'm going to secure it to the ski with dual sided velcro tape so I can remove it when touring to access the lowest position. Will probably use cork.

I am thinking of doing the same. Lowes has rubber stops that would work. I had the same thought of just inserting it under the boot for the down, looks like it would be in the way for the up. Velcro is a great idea.

Loving my 112's at the resort but I don't want to keep asking the Plum's to do stuff they weren't intended for. So the question is quiverkillers, plates or what? I have zero experience with these. I only ski in my touring boots so I'm limited to Salomon bindings with their height adjustable toe piece.

Quiver killers work great and they leave your stack height normal and seem to seal really well. This is especially good for your touring binders. Plates are another good option but increase stack and IMO decrease touring performance and add weight. Love the concept of quiver killers have many bros using them that travel internationally.

Installed the quiver killers today. Went super well with the use of a drill press and a jig (drilled 2x4) for tapping holes. I don't like the idea of plates. It would be great if that wider PLUM used a shared hole pattern, perhaps with the new Salomon/Atomic binding?


No weird stuff at all. Set em up for duke/baron and PLUM Guide. Skis were originally drilled for 322bsl on the line for the Dukes, then had to mount +1 and move the heel piece almost to the furthest back position to make it happen. Poor planning, but initially I didn't think that I would tour much on these skis. As it turns out,the Baron truly is a comparatively terrible binding for touring. That, and skiing in the mountains with these skis is sooo much fun... Anyways, I realized that inserts for the adjustment screws through the binding into the skis would be the shit and not all that difficult to achieve. Just be confident that you aren't going to switch boots, or go for a Hoji type setup where just the toe piece moves...

Jax, where did the heel adj. screw strip? Head / threads? What screw are u using instead?

I have stripped the heads on the screws before and have given them the feedback that torx are simply too easy to strip to be used in this application. I can't imagine having to deal with these in a demo situation. BTW: I saw a demo track at the factory- basically just an elongated (10cm's or so of adjustment) Guide heel.

Anyways, I experimented with easier ways to adjust the torx screws again. Adjusting the heel gap with the heel unit attached is very challenging due to the angle one has to approach the screws. Without the heel piece this is much easier.



I used the included tool (because it is so handy for the 4mm gap and every PLUM owner has one), to develop a way to measure the boot gap without the heel attached- like this -->



I used some thread lock, and tightened them down with less risk of stripping. With the heel reattached, the gap is a perfect 4mm-->



Seems to be a good way to nail the heel gap without stripping the torx - just don't cross thread the barrel adjustment on the heel unit...

Wrench handle flush with the back of the post? Thanks for the tip, Mike!

Originally Posted by gregL

Wrench handle flush with the back of the post? Thanks for the tip, Mike!

exactly.

Looks good! Since your post is so far back in the track, if you really want to lock the post in place you could probably pull the heel off the binding (once your gap is set), turn it over and tuck a sheet of Saran Wrap (or use grease for a release agent) into the gap between the post foot and end of the baseplate, and stuff the gap full of Mighty Putty or other epoxy ribbon. With a solid chunk of material behind the foot, it ain't going anywhere.

a sheet of Saran Wrap (or use grease for a release agent) into the gap between the post foot and end of the baseplate, and stuff the gap full of Mighty Putty or other epoxy ribbon. With a solid chunk of material behind the foot, it ain't going anywhere.

Nice! that is a damn good idea. Exactly the kind of experimenting that the quiver killers allow.

Great pics Mike, sweet boot gap method.

With the heel post locked like that, hopefully the toe will release if you ever flex the ski enough to bottom out the boot heel against the binding heel. Something has to give.

Why wouldn't it release? Only way it wouldn't is if the toe was locked into tour mode, correct?

I would expect it to release, but the toe normally releases when the boot twists, not sure if the release values are different when the boot is shoved straight forward. (Or pulled straight up at the toe, etc.)

I was under the impression that tech bindings had to have movement from the heel to release. I don't think there is technically vertical toe release, but if you stress it then it might happen. Could be wrong.