Thread: New waterprood-breathable fabrics

Originally Posted by Big Steve

once you get a small amount of moisture confined next to your skin, your sweat rate will lessen. You can get that to equilibrium with venting and practice. Once you do, all your insulating layers will stay dry in your pack until you need them, i.e., when you stop or for a downhill run.

True, but we're talking about jackets here , which typically go over the top of everything. (and I'm not a VB fan, but that's just me)

I've been curious about trying out VBs, are there any inexpensive options to try it out without breaking the bank?

Well, actually, the thread is about new (allegedly) WB fabrics, not just jackets.

You said that the moisture "needs to go somewhere," and that's not true. If people want to consider all their cold weather outdoor garment options, they ought to eschew the myth that moisture "needs to go somewhere." When moisture goes somewhere, heat goes with it. VBs work if you use them correctly. In some conditions (most aerobic activities in most winter conditions) VBs work way way way better than breatheable systems, if the user knows what he or she is doing.

I've been experimenting with VBs and semi-VBs for two decades. For me (a heavy sweater who spends lots of time in the PNW mountains) VBs and semi-VBs, in most mid-winter conditions, are, far and away the most weight efficient and safe (i.e., avoiding chills and hypotermia) system going. It aint a fair fight.

Originally Posted by Bean

I've been curious about trying out VBs, are there any inexpensive options to try it out without breaking the bank?

Start by getting a Mountain Hardwear Transition hooded jacket. Wear it next to your skin, i.e., no base layer. The MH Super Power will not work as a VB because it has knit panels. The Transition hoody is often available at a discount price on STP, etc.

This seems like the proper thread to ask a question that has been bugging me for a while. What the fuck is Gelanots? I've seen it referred to as "laminate", "membrane", and "coating."

Originally Posted by sfotex

When you're working hard you're going to sweat, even when it's cold out, and it needs to go somewhere. If it's a nice day you can wear a wicking t-shirt and call it good, but what do you do when it's windy or snowing out? And that t-shirt isn't going to cut it on the down either.

Right now I typically skin in RBH VB pants and a First Ascent BC-100 jacket. Both have adequate venting options. Unless I am with people slower than me, I usually have all vents opened up and the jacket unzipped after about a mile and 1,000 vert. When I get to the top or a rest point, I wait a few seconds until I get that first chill, then towel off with a pocket towel, throw the VB on and close all vents. That is usually enough to get me through a 5-10 minute break. I may throw a polypro layer on or my hardshell. If we are stopping for an extended time, I will throw a down sweater on and if snowing or blowing my hardshell over that. I find few things more comforting when BC skiing than knowing I have a layer preventing my insulation from getting any moisture from me and another layer protecting it from the elements.

For long or multi-day tours, my biggest criticism of these uber-breathable systems is that you are just further dehydrating yourself. Even if you don't feel sweaty, the dry winter air is pulling a ton of water from your body. I have a hard time keeping hydrated as it is and drink at least a liter before and 2 liters during an all day tour. The last thing I need is to drink another 1-2 liters of fluid a day.

Maybe this winter I will try weighing myself before and after using a VB and I will ditch the VB and see how much more weight I lose during a day. As I frequently repeat the same tours, this wouldn't be too difficult for me to narrow the variables down to temp, humidity, changes in speed, etc.

Big Steve - I'm looking long and hard at the RBH Spectral Jacket to replace the BC-100. I'm just worried about it's durability. May go with the lightning bug or one of RBH's other options.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

You said that the moisture "needs to go somewhere," and that's not true.

So when you start to sweat a lot with a VB on you either remove some insulation or increase ventilation, i.e. letting the moisture go somewhere.

Originally Posted by sfotex

So when you start to sweat a lot with a VB on you either remove some insulation or increase ventilation, i.e. letting the moisture go somewhere.

If you properly use a VB or semi-VB in temps below freezing, you never "start to sweat a lot." That's the point. Your question assumes a circumstance which results from improper VB use. Your question also assumes that one is using insulation with a VB, which is also almost always unnecessary. I regularly skin, run and climb down to 10F with no insulation, i.e., only next-to-skin VB or (more often these days) semi-VB . We don't get temps below that much in the PNW, but the RBH site has comments from people who use RBH next to skin stuff below OF with no insulation over it.

neufox47, I agree that properly used VBs in colder temps substantially decrease the chance of dehydration.

I doubt I'd like the RBH Spectral because I haven't liked VB shells over base layers (sweat runs down my back) and I cannot imagine wearing Cuben fiber next to skin. (After years of experimentation, all my VB garments are now next-to-skin). The VBs upper body garments (N2S) that work for me have some sort of fuzzy liner which gets moist, results in a relatively consistent ambient humidity, which in turn results in the body turning off the body's sweat engine.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

If you properly use a VB, you never "start to sweat a lot." That's the point.

So what's proper use of a VB? I either turn into a drippy mess and start to overheat then I have unzip everything to cool down. For me I usually skin up with a micro layer against the skin and a unzipped shell. Pretty much what happens in the end for me with VB stuff.

Note: I'm not trying to argue what works for you, you know that best. And VB systems have their place, but for me where I live I don't get much out of them.

Originally Posted by sfotex

So what's proper use of a VB? I either turn into a drippy mess and start to overheat then I have unzip everything to cool down. For me I usually skin up with a micro layer against the skin and a unzipped shell.

See my prior post re why I wouldn't like a RBH Spectral. Next-to-skin with a fuzzy lining is the key. I stopped using a base layer-VB shell combo system years ago because of the drip down my back. My current VB's and semi-VB's have a next-to-skin fuzzy layer which gets moist and prevents the drip drip drip.

Once you've got the fuzzy stuff next to skin, then vent early. If, as you describe, you start to overheat before you unzip, then you've obviously unzipped too late. Start venting before you sweat or perhaps just as you are on the brink of sweating.

I've tried lots of VB garments, including silnylon over base layer (worst -- see comments above re drip), Stephenson "fuzzy stuff" (works well in very cold temps for someone who doesn't sweat much), RBH (many fans), numerous DIY stuff and the MH Transition hoody (always worn next-to-skin). The MH Transition hoody (MHTH) is the best system for me. Because it's Gore Windstopper, one might suggest it's not a full VB, but for a sweaty guy like me it acts pretty much like a VB when I'm at even the lowest level of exertion.

Here's an example of how it works for me on a typical Cascades east slope mid-winter tour with a starting temp at 5F to 15F. I'll put on the MHTH next to skin and wear a puffy or shell over it at the car when I'm putting on boots, etc. The moment before starting the tour, I'll take of the puff or shell, i.e., I start touring with nothing but the MHTH next to my skin. (BTW, that's how I start pretty much any tour, climb or run between 5F and 35F.) I'll use the MHTH hood until I feel like I'm about to start sweating, at which time I'll pull down the hood. As I ascend, I might vent with the zipper. If I stop or get a chill, I zip up and/or put the hood back into position. The MHTH lining usually gets a bit moist, but I've never experienced any drip. For a short break, I merely zip up and put the hood into position or, on cold days I might put on a fleece hat under the hood for a short break. When I get to the top of the slope and/or stop for a longer break, I might put on a eVent jacket (although I've done lots of ski descents in 15F wearing just the MHTH with the hood in place). (One of the nice things about the MHTH is that, when my exertion levels are low, it actually breathes a wee bit and can actually get dry during a break when it's under eVent.) An eVent shell over the MHTH is usually sufficient during a longer break and the dowhill run. If ambient conditions are cold and moist (e.g., west slope Cascades) or if temps are dry and colder (<10F) I might put on a light fleece between MHTH and shell during a break or for the downhill runs. I've used this system for two full seasons (100+ days) and (a) I've never had the drip drip; (b) I've never gotten chilled when using this system (which is amazing because I fought chills many days for 15+ years of ski touring before I discovered VBs 10 or so years ago); (c) I've consumed less water and electrolytes; and (d) I've never gotten dehydrated nor suffered from electrolyte loss when using this system. And I've watched those around me get chilled and have to deal with wet layers and constant clothing changes.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Start venting before you sweat or perhaps just as you are on the brink of sweating.

^^ Heh, that is sitting still for me.

I am glad VB and WB fabrics work well for others, but I am with neufox47 on this one. I haven't worn a hard shell in years except when I am standing still. I climb in a wicking shirt and a very light soft shell and ski down in a heavier soft shell. I have a PrimaLoft or some other compressable synthetic insulating layer that stays in a stuff sack for emergencies and a cheap Marmot Precip jacket for the same. I use Precip because it is completely waterproof and, like I said, it only is on my body when I am not moving.

Originally Posted by Wandrin*

I am glad VB and WB fabrics work well for others, but I am with neufox47 on this one.

Uh, neufox47 uses VBs

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Once you've got the fuzzy stuff next to skin, then vent early. If, as you describe, you start to overheat before you unzip, then you've obviously unzipped too late. Start venting before you sweat or perhaps just as you are on the brink of sweating.

VB does a better job of cluing you into the fact that your sweating then a WBS shell, so you regulate sooner and more often. And it goes back to my point that the moisture has to go somewhere - when you're venting with a VB then it's going into the atmosphere.
In the way way cold VB's can be the ticket, where you need insulation to keep warm and don't want normal body moisture wetting your insulation down (like when you're in a sleeping bag). If I'm not chilly when I start hiking/skining then I know that I'm overdressed, and go from there.

I meant more that, like him, I sweat a lot.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Uh, neufox47 uses VBs

I still can't imagine wearing a VB. Unlike you, my body never 'turns off' the waterworks, even when in a humid to wet environment. I, personally, would be miserable.

Here is a something that Backpacker just put together. It stirs the pot.

http://www.backpacker.com/september-...n=newsletter02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD-aAFaWerk

Gelanots Some super interesting information here.

I question what outerwear to get, I've done the Gore Pro-Shell stuff, eVent. I'm a super sweaty guy, and eVent definitely has the upper hand on Gore with breathability.

The Trew FB page has previews of their 12/13 line, I'd like to support a smaller company and see how Gelanots works. Will report back.

Originally Posted by Graham

Gelanots Some super interesting information here.

I question what outerwear to get, I've done the Gore Pro-Shell stuff, eVent. I'm a super sweaty guy, and eVent definitely has the upper hand on Gore with breathability.

The Trew FB page has previews of their 12/13 line, I'd like to support a smaller company and see how Gelanots works. Will report back.

Im extremely happy with my bellows jacket. Use it almost everyday as a ski,wind or raincoat,and have never gotten properly wet in it. Better than any of the shitloads of gore tex shells ive owned and used.

Norsk.

Most of you have seen this, but even a fabric geek like me learned a great deal from Blister's awesome article Outerwear 101.

Originally Posted by auvgeek

Most of you have seen this, but even a fabric geek like me learned a great deal from Blister's awesome article Outerwear 101.

Thanks for posting. I missed that article.