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09-26-2011, 09:45 AM #51
Last edited by sfotex; 09-26-2011 at 11:24 AM.Life is a lot like climbing: there isn't anything much more comforting than a good #2.
09-26-2011, 10:39 AM #52
I've been curious about trying out VBs, are there any inexpensive options to try it out without breaking the bank?"It need not be fun to be fun." - Big Steve
09-26-2011, 10:43 AM #53
Well, actually, the thread is about new (allegedly) WB fabrics, not just jackets.
You said that the moisture "needs to go somewhere," and that's not true. If people want to consider all their cold weather outdoor garment options, they ought to eschew the myth that moisture "needs to go somewhere." When moisture goes somewhere, heat goes with it. VBs work if you use them correctly. In some conditions (most aerobic activities in most winter conditions) VBs work way way way better than breatheable systems, if the user knows what he or she is doing.
I've been experimenting with VBs and semi-VBs for two decades. For me (a heavy sweater who spends lots of time in the PNW mountains) VBs and semi-VBs, in most mid-winter conditions, are, far and away the most weight efficient and safe (i.e., avoiding chills and hypotermia) system going. It aint a fair fight.
09-26-2011, 10:45 AM #54
This seems like the proper thread to ask a question that has been bugging me for a while. What the fuck is Gelanots? I've seen it referred to as "laminate", "membrane", and "coating."
09-26-2011, 10:50 AM #55
For long or multi-day tours, my biggest criticism of these uber-breathable systems is that you are just further dehydrating yourself. Even if you don't feel sweaty, the dry winter air is pulling a ton of water from your body. I have a hard time keeping hydrated as it is and drink at least a liter before and 2 liters during an all day tour. The last thing I need is to drink another 1-2 liters of fluid a day.
Maybe this winter I will try weighing myself before and after using a VB and I will ditch the VB and see how much more weight I lose during a day. As I frequently repeat the same tours, this wouldn't be too difficult for me to narrow the variables down to temp, humidity, changes in speed, etc.
Big Steve - I'm looking long and hard at the RBH Spectral Jacket to replace the BC-100. I'm just worried about it's durability. May go with the lightning bug or one of RBH's other options.
09-26-2011, 11:42 AM #56Life is a lot like climbing: there isn't anything much more comforting than a good #2.
09-26-2011, 11:46 AM #57
neufox47, I agree that properly used VBs in colder temps substantially decrease the chance of dehydration.
I doubt I'd like the RBH Spectral because I haven't liked VB shells over base layers (sweat runs down my back) and I cannot imagine wearing Cuben fiber next to skin. (After years of experimentation, all my VB garments are now next-to-skin). The VBs upper body garments (N2S) that work for me have some sort of fuzzy liner which gets moist, results in a relatively consistent ambient humidity, which in turn results in the body turning off the body's sweat engine.
09-26-2011, 11:56 AM #58
Note: I'm not trying to argue what works for you, you know that best. And VB systems have their place, but for me where I live I don't get much out of them.
Last edited by sfotex; 09-26-2011 at 12:14 PM.Life is a lot like climbing: there isn't anything much more comforting than a good #2.
09-26-2011, 01:34 PM #59
Once you've got the fuzzy stuff next to skin, then vent early. If, as you describe, you start to overheat before you unzip, then you've obviously unzipped too late. Start venting before you sweat or perhaps just as you are on the brink of sweating.
I've tried lots of VB garments, including silnylon over base layer (worst -- see comments above re drip), Stephenson "fuzzy stuff" (works well in very cold temps for someone who doesn't sweat much), RBH (many fans), numerous DIY stuff and the MH Transition hoody (always worn next-to-skin). The MH Transition hoody (MHTH) is the best system for me. Because it's Gore Windstopper, one might suggest it's not a full VB, but for a sweaty guy like me it acts pretty much like a VB when I'm at even the lowest level of exertion.
Here's an example of how it works for me on a typical Cascades east slope mid-winter tour with a starting temp at 5F to 15F. I'll put on the MHTH next to skin and wear a puffy or shell over it at the car when I'm putting on boots, etc. The moment before starting the tour, I'll take of the puff or shell, i.e., I start touring with nothing but the MHTH next to my skin. (BTW, that's how I start pretty much any tour, climb or run between 5F and 35F.) I'll use the MHTH hood until I feel like I'm about to start sweating, at which time I'll pull down the hood. As I ascend, I might vent with the zipper. If I stop or get a chill, I zip up and/or put the hood back into position. The MHTH lining usually gets a bit moist, but I've never experienced any drip. For a short break, I merely zip up and put the hood into position or, on cold days I might put on a fleece hat under the hood for a short break. When I get to the top of the slope and/or stop for a longer break, I might put on a eVent jacket (although I've done lots of ski descents in 15F wearing just the MHTH with the hood in place). (One of the nice things about the MHTH is that, when my exertion levels are low, it actually breathes a wee bit and can actually get dry during a break when it's under eVent.) An eVent shell over the MHTH is usually sufficient during a longer break and the dowhill run. If ambient conditions are cold and moist (e.g., west slope Cascades) or if temps are dry and colder (<10F) I might put on a light fleece between MHTH and shell during a break or for the downhill runs. I've used this system for two full seasons (100+ days) and (a) I've never had the drip drip; (b) I've never gotten chilled when using this system (which is amazing because I fought chills many days for 15+ years of ski touring before I discovered VBs 10 or so years ago); (c) I've consumed less water and electrolytes; and (d) I've never gotten dehydrated nor suffered from electrolyte loss when using this system. And I've watched those around me get chilled and have to deal with wet layers and constant clothing changes.
09-26-2011, 02:43 PM #60
^^ Heh, that is sitting still for me.
I am glad VB and WB fabrics work well for others, but I am with neufox47 on this one. I haven't worn a hard shell in years except when I am standing still. I climb in a wicking shirt and a very light soft shell and ski down in a heavier soft shell. I have a PrimaLoft or some other compressable synthetic insulating layer that stays in a stuff sack for emergencies and a cheap Marmot Precip jacket for the same. I use Precip because it is completely waterproof and, like I said, it only is on my body when I am not moving.
09-26-2011, 03:04 PM #61
09-26-2011, 03:10 PM #62
In the way way cold VB's can be the ticket, where you need insulation to keep warm and don't want normal body moisture wetting your insulation down (like when you're in a sleeping bag). If I'm not chilly when I start hiking/skining then I know that I'm overdressed, and go from there.Life is a lot like climbing: there isn't anything much more comforting than a good #2.
09-26-2011, 03:20 PM #63
09-27-2011, 10:06 AM #64
Here is a something that Backpacker just put together. It stirs the pot.
10-26-2011, 12:58 PM #65
07-31-2012, 01:04 PM #66sendero
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Gelanots Some super interesting information here.
I question what outerwear to get, I've done the Gore Pro-Shell stuff, eVent. I'm a super sweaty guy, and eVent definitely has the upper hand on Gore with breathability.
The Trew FB page has previews of their 12/13 line, I'd like to support a smaller company and see how Gelanots works. Will report back.
08-01-2012, 09:51 AM #67
08-01-2012, 10:07 AM #68Registered User
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Most of you have seen this, but even a fabric geek like me learned a great deal from Blister's awesome article Outerwear 101."Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers
shroom put it best: "Man, you're one biased motherfucker."
08-01-2012, 11:22 AM #69