Thread: Layering for Tours

Around or above freezing I skin in a baselayer only. I add a lightweight, breathable fleece or an un-lined, membraneless softshell (Patagonia Ascensionist) if it is cold or windy. I bring a hard shell if expecting wet snow that might turn to rain, and I go slow.

I skinned and camped in a surprise downpour last spring, and had luckily chosen to wear a hard shell (forecast called for afternoon drizzle). Only problem I had was my down bag got soaked around my feet as my campsite wasn't quite level, as I was in a big hurry to get our of the rain. My bag kept coming into contact with the side of my tent as I slowly sagged downhill. Also, my wet dog kept trying to get into my bag. I'll make her a fleece taco bag this year.

Anyway, thinking of getting an UL DWR bivy sack with an eVent foot box like this to prevent my bag getting soaked from the outside. Even on a flat surface, I tend to move in my sleep and end up getting some part of my bag a bit damp, a problem that might be exacerbated if I begin using, as planned, a pyramid tent. Any thoughts?

^^^ Looks like a nice product.

What about just using a spray on waterproof/breathable coating on the outter shell instead? Not sure how smart that is... just came to my mind.

Over the years I've moved away from garments that promise to do everything to lots of separate layers that I can mix and match. They tend to be lighter and pack smaller too.

Top half - some combination of:
* Long sleeve merino base layer
* Lightweight fleece
* Heavyweight (Powerstretch) fleece
* Pertex windshirt
* Tiny long sleeve down jacket
* Goretex Paclite shell

Commonly, I'd wear the merino, the thin fleece and the windshirt for going uphill. The Paclite only goes on in extreme weather and the rest are very breathable. At the huts I change into a Duofold poly-something base layer and, usually, the puffa.

I know that some folks still find merino damp. The only man-made item that I've found as comfortable is one made by Duofold. I can't identify the fabric and we can no longer get them in the UK but it hangs and clings better than anything else I've found.

Bottom half:
* Technical knickers (2 pairs - alternating days)
* Powerstretch leggings
* Paclite overstrousers

The leggings may not be to everyone's style but I find them versatile and comfortable. The overtrousers only appear when modesty or extreme weather demands.

Things to avoid: cotton and Windstopper - both sweaty and cold.
Check out: US Army breathability tests:
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...athability.pdf

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

Anyway, thinking of getting an UL DWR bivy sack with an eVent foot box like this to prevent my bag getting soaked from the outside. Even on a flat surface, I tend to move in my sleep and end up getting some part of my bag a bit damp, a problem that might be exacerbated if I begin using, as planned, a pyramid tent. Any thoughts?

Totally depends on the climate and weather of the day. I've had cold nights in my pyramid tent where my bag has kept me plenty warm and dry. I've also had not as cold nights during storms during which my bag got a lot more moist and my comfort suffered. I have a bivy for just that situation now. It helps big time.

Originally Posted by altis

Check out: US Army breathability tests:
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...athability.pdf

Interesting.

Originally Posted by neufox47

Do you use a VB on the bottom (legs) or just the top? If so what do you use?

For midwinter trips I wear MH Synchro pants next-to-skin over compression shorts. The Synchro doesn't breathe worth a shit so it functions as a VB for a sweathog like me. For milder tours I use a variety of knit (e.g. Schoeller cloth or equiv) pants.

Originally Posted by neufox47

Do you know what the breathability rating of the MH jacket it? I couldn't find it, I know the Stephenson's is supposed to be 97%, which is about the same as gore-tex according to the warmlite website.

Don't know, and those "ratings" are seldom consistent with my experience. The Stephenson is like a plastic bag (full on VB) with a fuzzy lining. I'd rate the MH Synchro worn next-to-skin is as a 80% VB, IME. For me, MH Transition is roughly halfway between a full-on VB and an untreated windshirt, IMV. Those are shots from the hip, purely subjective and anecdotal, so take them with a grain of salt because sweat rates and insensible sweat rates vary from individual to individual.

Originally Posted by neufox47

Have you used a VB shirt / pants in a sleeping bag rather than a vb sleeping bag liner?

I sometimes use urethane coated rain gear as a nighttime SB VB, but gotta be sure that they are dry before crawling in the bag. A silnylon VB SB liner is pretty damn light, maybe lighter than the moisture you'd otherwise carry around in your sleeping bag after a couple nights. Also, a VB liner will increase the warmth rating of the SB so, in theory, you can get away with a lighter bag.

Originally Posted by altis

Things to avoid: cotton and Windstopper - both sweaty and cold.
Check out: US Army breathability tests:
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/...athability.pdf

Certainly agree about cotton. But gotta disagree about windstopper, which, IME, is a great semi-VB if worn next-to-skin.

Those tests results are meaningless if, as it appears, they don't test the fabric when it is wetted out.

Originally Posted by TeleThor

Totally depends on the climate and weather of the day. I've had cold nights in my pyramid tent where my bag has kept me plenty warm and dry. I've also had not as cold nights during storms during which my bag got a lot more moist and my comfort suffered. I have a bivy for just that situation now. It helps big time.

Thanks. Thanks what I'm looking for. What bivy do you have?

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Certainly agree about cotton. But gotta disagree about windstopper, which, IME, is a great semi-VB if worn next-to-skin.

I'm far from the only one to dislike Windstopper. Here's a soft shell review for the UK's Climber magazine from a couple of years back:

http://www.mountainadventurecompany....lls,fleece.pdf

The author of that review is talking about using a windstopper garment over a base layer, not next-to-skin. Of course, a garment that works as a VB or semi-VB is probably going to suck if used over a base layer.

Are you saying that all fabrics with a PTFE membrane, e.g., GoreTex, eVent, suck? If not, why single out windstopper vs. the other PTFE fabrics?

In other layering news, I am having 7" pit zips put into my Nano-Puff. That's gonna open it up as a layering piece, I reckon.

Originally Posted by rideit

In other layering news, I am having 7" pit zips put into my Nano-Puff. That's gonna open it up as a layering piece, I reckon.

That is why I returned it, no pitzips.

you my man, are a genius.

Originally Posted by neufox47

As far as the above question about VB's in sleeping bags, I sweat a lot in my sleep, when at home in my heated and humidified house, I lose 1 - 1.5lbs in 7hrs of sleep on average. I know a lot of this goes to respiration but a lot comes out of my skin. I would not be able to go on multi day winter overnight trips without a vb in my bag. I'm pretty sure my bag would be soaked after two nights.

.

WHA? you lose 1-1.5lbs a night in sweat? WTF? most respectfully of course, how?

Originally Posted by DasBlunt

That is why I returned it, no pitzips.

you my man, are a genius.

Local seamstress here is doing it for $25.00. A baahgain!

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

Thanks. Thanks what I'm looking for. What bivy do you have?

I picked up a BD Big Wall bivy last year. I haven't used too many times yet, but so far it's done the job. It's made out of "ToddTex" material, which is what goes into Bibler tents from what I gather. Durable and warm so far. I don't need the "big wall" rope tie in point, but I got a deal on it that was better priced than the similar Hooped bivy. The hooped head opening isn't for everyone, but works for me.

A buddy of mine has an OR bivy (either the Alpine or Advanced) which he swears by. Goretex of some sort. I was actually looking for one of these, but couldn't find a decent price on one so went with the BD and was pleasantly surprised.

Sorry for the bivy thread drift guys.

Originally Posted by DasBlunt

WHA? you lose 1-1.5lbs a night in sweat? WTF? most respectfully of course, how?

That is not unusual. I'm a former wrestler, now a coach, and therefore am well tuned to matters of short term weight loss. A pound overnight is standard for someone around 150 lbs. Bigger people lose more, smaller folks less.

Patagonia Cap 1 long sleeve, patagonia alpine wind jacket on top. Nano for the top/descent, with a hardshell in the pack if the weather is interesting. Windbriefs and Cap 1 bottoms, Arcteryx Seeker softshell--extremely thin--pants on the bottom. Buff wear/visor for the ascent, warm hat that fits over buffwear for the descent.

Don't be the tool skinning in a helmet/goggles.

No need for much clothing in most of the ski touring situations I find myself in. For a day of corn skiing I'll bring no additional clothing in the pack, besides the baselayer/windshirt and softshell pants/windbriefs.

I lose 2lb every night while I sleep, I think its exhaled moisture though (air going in is ~10% humidity, air going out is ~100% humidity).

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

That is not unusual. I'm a former wrestler, now a coach, and therefore am well tuned to matters of short term weight loss. A pound overnight is standard for someone around 150 lbs. Bigger people lose more, smaller folks less.

Standard for whom? I am 6.3 225, I do not loose 1.5lbs a night sweating.

Is it weird to wear underwear under a merino base layer? The bottoms just don't feel very supportive.

Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

Is it weird to wear underwear under a merino base layer? The bottoms just don't feel very supportive.

As long as you feel guilty its OK

165lb here, and 1.5lb is about right (often more) for various fluid losses.

Originally Posted by DasBlunt

WHA? you lose 1-1.5lbs a night in sweat? WTF? most respectfully of course, how?

I don't know, but I am in the long process of making myself smaller and weigh myself frequently as I think it controls my desire to eat 3000 calories in a sitting. Weighing myself before and after sleeping without urinating and I lose about 1.5 pounds. I also have a hygrometer in my room and it is usually about 60-70% humidity (I run a humidifier), so I don't think I lose a ton to breathing.

Originally Posted by XXX-er

As long as you feel guilty its OK

you're catholic, aren't you. I've got a buddy who uses his catholic upbringing as a way to tell if he's having a good time. If he feels guilty, he's doing a good job of it.

yes that would be the catholic POV but I am a devout agnostic

BUT from a practical perspective you don't want to leave skid marks in yer base layer , also a few years ago during a ranndo race at the hill the wind was kicking straight at the racers as they came over the top of the hill and one guy who didnt wear underwear thinking he might over heat got his pecker frozen

Originally Posted by Big Steve

I'm currently using a quasi-VB, the Mountain Hardwear Transition Jacket, always worn next-to-skin (N2S), i.e., no base layer. The Transition uses a very thin lightweight Gore Windstopper fabric. It's not a full-on VB, but it operates as a quasi-VB for a heavy sweater like me, i.e. the WS membrane cannot transport vapor as fast as I produce it so I develop a think warm moist microatmosphere between me and the garment. So far, the piece is the best cool/cold weather aerobic layer I've ever used, outperforming RBH and my DIY VB's. I wear the MH Transition right from the start for skinning, usually starting with the hood up, and later I might vent by pulling down the hood and unzipping a bit. When I stop, I zip up and throw a shell and/or insulation layer.

Steve, since you're the resident VB expert, I figured I'd ask you: I want to make a foray into the VB world, but they quit making that jacket. Can you recommend something comparable? Searched for a while, but it yielded nothing useful. Most of the stuff I found, like this, is designed to wick and breathe. I don't mind going to RBH full VB stuff, if you think that's the next best thing. I generally skin in a t-shirt, but sometimes my skin gets too cold/windburned (and I'm still sweating), so I'm a little worried about venting the RBH stuff. Definitely plan to wear N2S. Any idea what the Euro guys are using?

Not trying to get you to do my homework for me, I've spent some time searching and haven't found anything that I think is suitable.

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

I go slow.

Fuckin' liar.

I always go with a compression-type heat gear base layer that is against my skin on top and bottom to wick and keep my skin from staying soaked. Usually I'd just tour up in that but if it was super cold or windy i'll usually throw on my R1 or another fleece to retain a little heat butnot block the wind so I can dry out and vent along the way. I also like to keep a micropuff jacket and vest in my bag to have dry, warm options and of course my jacket in case the snow is coming in sideways or it's raining.