Thread: Layering for Tours

Wow, surprised at how much clothing everyone wears on the skintrack. Maybe I just run warm.

For me it's thin merino wool bottoms and either softshell pants or pants with decent venting. No serious insulation. Legs stay warm on the way up and down naturally. Up top I wear a long sleeved merino wool baselayer and another athletic short sleeve shirt that can wick moisture away. That's usually it. If you're not cold when you start skinning you're wearing too much IMO. If it's dumping or blowing hard I'll throw on a thin softshell. Shell or softshell on the way down of course. I usually stow a down sweater or primaloft vest in my pack for longer breaks/very cold days.

It's all personal preference, and it definitely took a me a while to figure out the correct layering that worked for me. Don't sweat it. Everybody's different.

Scru teh h8rz, Yo!

Originally Posted by Shorty_J

Big Steve: Do you change your strategy when on multi-day tour where you're camping? I wonder about all that moisture and how it will not be appreciated by a down sleeping bag.

Actually, my strategy works best for multi-day tours because the moisture is contained within the first layer.* I also use a VB sleeping bag liner in winter. For me, VB socks are essential on multi-day tours to avoid saturated boot liners. Even though I sweat more than everyone else in my group, my gear is usually the driest. VB's work.

*I will be keeping notes re the quasi-VB system I'm using this year vs. less permeable VB's in prior years. On stops I have been layering over it with a 50/50 syn/wool fleece, and then a puff over that (if necessary) for lunch stops. In the past I've carried an ultralight urethane coated shell which I pull over the VB/quasi-VB before layering as a means to keep the outer layers virtually bone dry. So far I have not taken the intermediate shell with the Transition jacket, but I will do so for multi day use. It's an extra 9 oz, so not a big deal and a very reliable way to keep all insulation layers dry.

Also note that, because pressure over skin generally reduces sweat rate, I sweat less and drink less when using a VB or quasi-VB. It's a double benefit, i.e., less overall sweat and virtually no sweat penetrating past the VB.

ETA: MO, yeah, I know Gore N2S is 5 y.o., but that's "new" to an oldtimer like me

Big Steve - I'm interested in this idea of vapor barrier socks. how do you find them from the point of view of bunching up, rubbing etc? i have pretty close fitting boots and my worry is that it would (a) be a bit tight to fit another layer (or 2) in there and (b) they might wrinkle and cause blisters

Losing body heat to sweating (evaporation of water) is the body's way of thermostating at a survivable temperature while doing work. I speculate that those who use VBs are sweating too much in a cold climate, causing them to lose more heat than they need to stay at a reasonable temperature. The VB slows the rate of water evaporation, and the problem is fixed. Does this sound right Steve?
My biggest problem with sweating (aside from getting drenched and then clammy) is that I have a hard time staying hydrated, and sweating just means more water I have to carry with me and force myself to drink.

Any opinion on Gore-tex socks vs. standard VB? The only VB socks I've seen for sale at MEC will bunch up inside my boot and look un-comfortable and like they might cause blisters. The Gore-tex socks are better fitted and a bit stretchy, but super spendy.

What kind of VB bag do you use? I actually had Stephenson's warmlite custom make a VB liner for my sleeping bag. I used it once, but it's hard to say how much effect it had on keeping me warm that night.

Originally Posted by canwilf

My experience with Merino 'Icebreaker' brand is still sometimes a bit scratchy. Maybe it is from my childhood memories of being forced to wear wool dress pants.

Also, it does absorb quite a bit of the sweat in the fibers and does get a bit heavy at times.

All things considered, I prefer to wear poly-whatever on my base insulating layers even if I'll smell like a burrito.

... I confess, I did buy the briefs and thin socks for skiing and they do smell FRESH even after a 3 days of touring and no changes. Didn't someone wear that stuff for months straight on the space station to see if they would still smell fresh??

Anyways, Poly-whatever is so much less expensive than the hype-branded over over over over priced Merino sheep stuff.

not an astronaut but I have been acused of being a space cadet

I took 2 new MEC zip T's on a 9 day hut trip one wool and one poly ,I started in the wool which already had 2 days of wear

I changed out of the wool into the poly at day 4 for 6 days total wear ,it didnt stink too much but I changed anyway cuz it was in my pack

After only 3 days the poly stunk so bad I switched back to and finished the trip in the wool I hjad taken off

I don't really sweat or stink that bad but plastic sucks up whatever your body puts out

I wear merino base layers in dry suits which is a pretty extreme app and it absolutely does not stink

I don't think merino is as bomber ,I got 7 tops made by mec/icebreaker/smart wool /something sold at MEC in the past and they ALL have holes in them

I think plastic holds up better ,works just as well OR maybe even better as a base layer performance wise ... but it stinks

the reason I have so many pieces is I inherited it all from my father , he didnt do ANY outdoor stuff at all but he liked it for sitting around the house he sez WAY back in the day as in post WWII nothing worked as well in the tropics ,

Arno, I use a 2mm neoprene sock only, which is about as thin as a conventional ski sock. Good idea to wash with Dial soap, dry thoroughly and apply Certain Dri antiperspirant before a multiday trip. I'm currently using a NRS 2mm sock, although I had to cut off the top seam to avoid getting a crease in my shin. BTW, Cabela's neoprene sox suck, will develop holes after a few uses. I also use neoprene sox (although I don't need to cut off the top seam) for most mountaineering days.

murph, yes, a VB/quasi-VB significantly cuts down on the sweat evap rate, and thus saves energy. But, as previously mentioned, it also reduces sweat rate and helps prevent dehydration and electrolyte loss. That's certainly my experience anyway.

Shorty J, I use very snug (form fitting) neoprene sox. If there's a fold, then the sox are too big for you. I've never gotten a blister using neoprene sox, FWIW.

I use a Feathered Friends sleeping bag VB liner (silnylon), which hooks into my FF bags via hooks/snaps. A VB liner will certainly add to the warmth of the bag, but, more importantly, it will save the down from getting fouled with vapors emitting from the body and resultant loss of loft. IMV, a VB SB liner is essential for a cold weather multi-day trip.

XXX-er, the original Helly Hansen and Lifa polypro stunk to high hell. Polyester (e.g., Capeline) stinks quite a bit less, but still gets stinky. No stinkage with RBH VB's and, so far, with the MH Transition jacket quasi-VB (i.e., how I use it).

Addendum: For 3 seasons I used a MH Synchro jacket in next-to-skin mode as a VB. (Although MH claims the Conduit softshell fabric to be breatheable, it is far from it and thus, for me, acts as a VB.) I installed pit zips as a DIY mod. It worked very well in cold (i.e., <15F) mid-winter trips -- again, in next-to-skin mode. Even though it's not designed as a VB, IMO the Synchro jacket is a close second to the RBH stuff for a full-on VB. The conventional wisdom is that, the colder the weather, the more VB garments and SB liners are indicated. I would agree.

I've started wearing a wind shirt over my merino base layers and really like that. I tend to run a little warm and most soft shells are just too warm but still want to wind protection.

Does the wind shirt have any zippers or venting?

I also run really warm on the up. I've got the legs dialed in, mid weight tights under a shell with venting and I'm good to go.

The top floor is a bit more difficult

I used to run a short sleeve baselayer then a powerstrech mid-layer and then a softshell if it was cold or snowy, that didn't work so well at all. Got really sweaty and it was worse when it got snowy because everything soaked through

Went to a long sleeve baselayer and a fleece vest and that solved the majority of the problems with heat but if it was snowy I got soaked and never dried out because my shell was too hot to wear on the up

This year though I think I've got it almost dialed. I found two of my old Under Armor Coldgear compression tops that I used to wear while playing lacrosse, in that same box was an old LL Bean vest that has a waterproof membrane on one side and fleece on the other. The compression top seems to run a LOT cooler and drier then a standard loose fitting baselayer, my guess is it's more efficient at shedding heat and moisture. Having some form of waterproofing on the vest keeps my core nice and toasty.

I've also decided to go from a super large puffy down jacket that goes on OVER my gore tex shell to something like a Patagonia Micro puff jacket that can be worn stand-alone or under the gore tex. I'm hoping to gain two advantages: first using an insulated jacket will help dry out my base layers on the way down. Second being stash the gore tex shell at the bottom of the pack will make for easier transitions. Right now when I get to the top its pull out shell, add puffy over while transitioning, then when I'm ready to go downhill I take the puffy off and stow it in the pack. This makes me cold. With the new system I'm hoping its get to the top, throw on thin insulated puffy jacket, add shell if needed then go downhill.

Full zip down the front so very easy to dump heat.

^^^ Thanks... nice and light too.

Originally Posted by Shorty_J

^^^ Thanks... nice and light too.

I've had a Schoeller Ferreta jacket and a Marmot that was a Polartec material with the light fleece inner facing and just found both too warm for here on the coast. I am also really reluctant to not carry a hardshell so I think this windshirt is going to be a good middle ground. Keep the wind off and hopefully breath better than a soft shell, then the hardshell comes on over top at the top of the hill.

I switched to wool base layers several years ago. I'm not a sweater at all, I pee alot and I don't tend to overheat. For me I've been silkweight base (I love the feel of silk on my skin is why) mid weight wool zip Patagucci or Ibex Shak and then depending on temp/wind from there a soft shell or vest. I've been frozed up so many times I think my internal temp runs low. On bottom I typically wear heavy wool Patagucci. Alot of time I'm at BPass which can be hella cold and windy (see Thanksgiving notes for ref). I love the wool stuff, the non stank factor is great, it seems to insulate pretty well. The Patagonia stuff seems to want to lose shape. The pants have sag ass big time. Some of it I won't wash for a month, could be why the sag factor hits.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Surprised that nobody else has tried N2S stuff. IMV, it's the answer for sweaty Viking aerobics.

My system is similar, as the windbreaker acts as a partial VBL. I've tried the Transition top, with mixed results. (Worked well in really really cold temps, but I overheated in anything warmer than single digits.) My wife and son (who don't put out nearly as much heat as I do) both use the Transition tops (actually, son uses Transition, and wife uses a very similar piece from Marmot, can't recall what they called it.)

My preferred set up (lightweight base covered by a windbreaker) is a lot like Marmot's driclime, but it's 2 pieces, not just one. Not a true vapor barrier, but provides many of the advantages you speak of in your description of N2S.

I've been looking at the RBH socks for quite some time, but haven't tried them. They seem like the answer to using single boots on multi-day trips. Have you used the socks? If so, what are your thoughts?

in conclusion, while a big sweaty dude, i am far less big or sweaty as i thought!

great feedback in here though. awesome thread.

Kai, agree that an uncoated WB acts as a partial VB. I tried the Driclime when it came out back in the 1990's but it didn't work for me. The syn inside layer would get soaked and then soak the nylon taffeta shell. So, the taffeta was not enough barrier for me. After year of experimenting, I'm persuaded that, for all but very cold temps, the right vapor transmission threshold for respective individuals varies greatly. OTOH, as the temps get colder, the range of what works narrows to the point that, in very cold temps, all out VB's or something close are the way to go for nearly everyone IMO.

Note that I vent the Transition as soon as I feel the insensible sweat forming. I do the same with my RBH, DIY modified Synchro, and other DIY stuff. The Stephenson POS is hanging on a hook in the gear room and it will stay there. But it did get my ass up and down Rainier 2X and a few other stratovolcanoes.

Also note that we PNW alpinists often deal with cool/cold constant rain, often for hours or days. Nobody stays dry in those conditions when they are on the move. Warm and moist while moving, while having dry clothes for camp, is the best we can do. I've spend hundreds of hours moving on alpine and subalpine terrain in 32F to 45F rain, mist, drizzle, etc., and a single layer VB works best for me in those conditions. Other guys do okay with a single (soaking wet) thin base layer and PTFE shell, but it seems that I'm less miserable than them, but maybe that's because I'm a numbnuts.

I have not tried the RBH sox. Neoprene works fine for me, lest my AT boots would be rendered into bathtubs. I have heard that the RBH gloves are the best thing going for very cold temps. I whacked off half the arms of my RBH shirt to make the best 37F rainy golf garment known to mankind.

I am a thin guy (6' 155lbs) but still get warm on the ascent. I wear a thin long sleeve polypro shirt with a Schoeller Dryskin unlined shell on top of that. Breathes well and repels snow. The moment the Schoeller top feels a bit warm, it's off.

Then I have a Gore hardshell to go over those guys if the wind really howls or the temp drops. The three of them together allow to me be moving up and remain pretty dry if the temps are low (say -10C to -20C) and the wind is up.

Lastly I carry a DAS Parka to go over all of it when I stop. Or, if it's spring, a Patagonia Down Sweater.

I never change bottom layers, always wearing a midweight Capilene LJ (or lightweight in the spring) and Goretex pants over that. I find that my bottom is much less sensitive to the number of layers. My pants are full zip, so vent well if the daytime really heats up.

For multi-day glacier camping trips where I expect everything from high-effort large-pack skinning to climbing and ski descents, my entire wardrobe for the trip is...

1. Base long sleeve poly t-shirt
2. Schoeller Dryskin jacket
3. Lightweight fleece (no barrier, super breathable)
4. Goretex Hardshell
5. DAS Parka
6. Capilene midweight LJ
7. Fleece pants (worn in camp over LJ, under GTX)
8. GTX pants

By combining the layers depending on the conditions, I find these 8 garments serve all my needs for everything from humping my full-on pack up steep headwalls to sitting and running the stove during a -25C blizzard.

For hands/feet:

1. OR Alti Mitts. With my 50bpm HR and 100/60BP, my hands and feet tend to get very cold. I carry a liner glove for ascending or fine work, then a pair of Alti Mitts and spare puffy mitt liner. Nothing is warmer. Worth 2x the price to me. The beauty is that I can use just the outer mitt with the liner glove, or on its own, and I have a versatile system.
2. Medium height down booties. In camp, I put all my upper layers on, slip my fleece pants under my GTX pants, and then put a chemical toe warmer on my socks and slip my feet in down booties. I can sit, static, at temps to -25C in complete comfort. Colder than that and I need to move around a bit, but otherwise, I'm good.
3. Intuition liners in my ski boots. Again, worth every penny and then some. The G-fit liners in my MegaRides were garbage. Packed out in a few days and were never warm. My Intuitions are comfy and warm.

Originally Posted by Rip'nStick

I have found a simple baselayer, take your pick, and the Marmot Dri-clime windshirt with mesh armpits.

Another vote for DriClime. Rarely need more than that on top of a base layer when skinning. Add a light synthetic puffy for stops/downs.

Wouldn't dream of skinning in hard shell jacket or pants - except in nightmares.

I LOVE my Stoic Merino crew shirt. I've got 3, all from Backcountry.com I wear them while hiking, biking, skinning and riding in bounds. Awesome base layer, no STANK. Also have more Patagucci capilene than you can believe. Silk, mid weight, heavy and R1. Use them all depending on conditions. Bottom layer is harder for me. I usually just run some silk weigh 'gucci but I get hot.

Ditch the cotton, start collecting synthetics and merino, see what works best. Watch SAC. That is where half of my shit is from. You lose the cotton and you will find that you have less problems staying warm.

I run cold, but sweat, and Colorado is REALLY dry, so not many issues with too much moisture, venting being your friend on the way up, NO MESH PIT ZIPS, IF SO, CUT OUT THE MESH. I run a Merino wool 1 Patagonia as my base (the thinest wool layer I have ever seen made, it dries SUPER fast), then a Wool 4 depending on the temps for insulation. The first layer takes up most of the sweat and dries like magic, the second layer takes the rest. No cold spots or puddles. If it is really cold, pull out the down packed puffy at the top. Gore Pro as hard shells, again, no mesh pit zips, venting in CO is your friend. If you have mesh in ur pit or leg vents, cut that shit out.

Legs, Wool 3 or wool 2. Gore Pro shells.

resort is gore performance, with all that mesh you only need a light base layer for insulation.

I could not imagine a Vapor Barrier like Big Steve explains so well (thanks dude!), but I do not live in a whatsoever humid climate like he deals with.

well, i've ordered some neoprene socks. let's see if i get trench foot on my next trip

Bigsteve, thanks for the info. I was going to buy the Stephenson's Warmlite until your post. I had been using a Marmot Precip Jacket as my VB, but now am going to try the RGB. Do you use a VB on the bottom (legs) or just the top? If so what do you use?

Do you know what the breathability rating of the MH jacket it? I couldn't find it, I know the Stephenson's is supposed to be 97%, which is about the same as gore-tex according to the warmlite website.

Have you used a VB shirt / pants in a sleeping bag rather than a vb sleeping bag liner? I am kind of a weight weeney at times and would love to leave the liner at home if possible. When I did this last year using Marmot Precip jacket and pants as a VB, there was still a fair amount of moisture in my sleeping bag, but not near as much as w/out the vb pants and shirt.

As far as the above question about VB's in sleeping bags, I sweat a lot in my sleep, when at home in my heated and humidified house, I lose 1 - 1.5lbs in 7hrs of sleep on average. I know a lot of this goes to respiration but a lot comes out of my skin. I would not be able to go on multi day winter overnight trips without a vb in my bag. I'm pretty sure my bag would be soaked after two nights.

Regarding the use of a windshirt as a VB, glad it works for some, but not me. On a hike the other weekend, we stopped and I threw on my golite windshirt, followed by a synthetic puffy then my rain shell over it. I only had a single layer that was already wet underneath my windshirt so I was hoping that the windshirt would act like a VB and protect my puffy from getting wet. 10min later when I took off my rain coat it had a huge amount of condensation on it, the puffy felt pretty dry still and so did the windshirt, but I could not believe how much condensation formed on the outer layer in ten minutes. I would guess that it was 1-2 ounces.

Sounds like what I'm using wouldn't work for most, but I use this from Eddie Bauer.

I think it might be too much for most because it's not very thin, but I wear it as a baselayer, and put my shell on top if it's windy. It has a fleecy feeling to the inside, and It's usually good enough on it's own for climbing (even down to around -20C if there's no wind), and what I really like about it is the built-in hood. If I'm a tiny bit cold or a bit of a breeze rolls in, hood goes on right away without fumbling through my pack for a toque. I also have a pair of stretch pants from them as well... really happy with the quality of Eddie Bauer stuff.