Thread: Layering for Tours

Originally Posted by Rontele

Part of it is how you exert yourself. Start out too fast and you'll sweat like mad and be cold on your first stop. It is an art form to go at a comfortable pace where you are not redlining and sweating like Delta Burke over a chocolate cake.

i usually start super fast and hard because i am 1/2 frozen from sitting around waiting for rontele to get his shit together.

Good stuff re layering in this thread so far, I'm looking for info on Craft-usa.com fabrics, specifically, if they're still using wool in the 'warm' and 'zero' fabrics.. i own a bunch of their base layers, both wool and non wool... but they aren't specifically mentioning wether they're using wool or not. I know they did in the older products which I own a handful of (4 yrs ago?)

To all who have mentioned anti stink properties of merino wool -- your close quarter mates thank you.

If anyone on this thread knows if Craft is still using wool in the the cooler temp base layers, please give a shout back, i have a msg into them but wont hear back for a bit i'd imagine.

I sweat like a whore in church, could use a sponge based base layer. lots o stripping of layers mid effort. i drive people nuts, but i wont freeze just to not irritate people. Can be serious business, so take it serious, i says

Originally Posted by WyoWill

Perhaps I'm over thinking this too much, but the key for me is the fleece vest over a base layer. It looks kinda dumb, but I don't like the idea of rocking only a base layer with my beacon flapping around. I easily overheat and the vest helps keep my core warm without unnecessary layers on my extremities, and should help keep my beacon from ripping off in a slide.

Never considered the beacon aspect, maybe i'm under thinking!

But i've been really happy with a thin polortec oversized vest over a baselayer, lately the R1 Hoody, with a wool blend hat or baseball cap. Wind comes up, pop the hoody on, zip up the vest, get warm, reverse. And full length leg zips to keep the lower half cooler. Get to the top, trade vest for shell, dry hat and gloves, zip up and go...

Originally Posted by XXX-er

Put a BIG puffy in yer pack , put it over your soft shell when ever you are not moving and you won't even have to start out being cold

XXX-er's got it... the old belay jacket trick. Its OK to layer over your shell, not just under. Most people don't think to do it.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

i usually start super fast and hard because i am 1/2 frozen from sitting around waiting for rontele to get his shit together.

the Rontele junkshow has been way improved since Wednesday.

And ALWAYS wear your beacon against your bottom layer of clothing.

Often the trailbreaker works them self into a lather then falls back into the skin track while the next guy takes his turn to sweat like a pig ,its almost like just to prove they did their part everybody gets too hot ...then they can get cold

I was touring with this old engineer,it was -23C we had a good sized group and there was a foot of pow ,he said "just try this for kicks , take 50 HARD steps and move to the side ...let the next guy take over "

50 really hard steps is just enough effort to get you warm but not sweat at which point the next person in line takes over and just like the peloton in a bike race it was easyier, faster ,and nobody got cold

I like that, cyclists had that shit figured out a long time ago. Makes sense to me, share the load for the good of the group.

Originally Posted by T-dub

I like that, cyclists had that shit figured out a long time ago. Makes sense to me, share the load for the good of the group.

yeah but I have only seen skiers cooperate like that the one time

maybe time to infuse some cross sport wisdom them xxx?

OP's ? brings up valid and potentially life preserving subject matter. Some have laughed at me for "obsessing" over layering issues, what to pack etc.. its not a joke when you've fucked up and are exposed up high.

It 's half the fun to have planned properly, have the right gear to make an expedition work out. I'd rather hear of peoples great time floating fresh rather than tales of misery.

OP I'm a heavy sweater as well. I normally go with an under armour heat gear shirt with nothing else on the way up. Exceptions are stormy weather or frigid. If thats the case I wear an event shell on top. I always wear non insulated pants with vents (i use the fly as a vent sometimes as well). As others have said you should be cold when your start out. My theory is that I would rather be cold and dry, then cold and wet.

Thanks for all the info... this will be very helpful in the future. I think slowing down will be important for me cause since im new to skinning i get real excited when i see all the fresh and just try to charge up as fast as i can. I guess slow and steady wins the race agian. Gotta rock the blazer jersey for good luck tho, essential layer.

I'm going to be the lone voice against merino wool.

I've found that merino wool soaks up too much sweat, and then takes forever to dry. I prefer a lightweight synthetic, or perhaps a merino/synthetic mix (like the new Mammut all-seasons)

My standard skinning clothing is Top: lightweight wicking layer (Patagonia Capilene 1 or Mammut all-seasons), and a windbreaker (Patagonia Houdini, or the like) Bottom: Lightweight wicking layer and softshell pants.
When I'm moving, I'm comfortable in this down to single digits. If it's warmer, I don't even bother to wear the windbreaker. If I'm stopped (eating lunch, digging a pit, etc.) I throw on a lightweight down jacket over top of everything else.

I tend to run pretty warm, but if you're cold-blooded, just use a slightly heavier base layer.

Really depends on the temps out, mid-winter or spring, but I have found a simple baselayer, take your pick, and the Marmot Dri-clime windshirt with mesh armpits. It is not that expensive, something like $80 and deals with light snow and wind fairly well. At the top you can switch to whatever else packs easily like a micropuff or something if it is cold, or just hardshell right over the dri-clime. The dri-clime seems to deal with a pretty wide range of temperature. As reference I run hot.

Another key thing is a pant that vents.

All of the technique stuff mentioned here is spot on.

My experience with Merino 'Icebreaker' brand is still sometimes a bit scratchy. Maybe it is from my childhood memories of being forced to wear wool dress pants.

Also, it does absorb quite a bit of the sweat in the fibers and does get a bit heavy at times.

All things considered, I prefer to wear poly-whatever on my base insulating layers even if I'll smell like a burrito.

... I confess, I did buy the briefs and thin socks for skiing and they do smell FRESH even after a 3 days of touring and no changes. Didn't someone wear that stuff for months straight on the space station to see if they would still smell fresh??

Anyways, Poly-whatever is so much less expensive than the hype-branded over over over over priced Merino sheep stuff.

Originally Posted by jimmyawesome

Many people do not observe that important rule ^^^
Layer down significantly before you get started.

Completely agree. I try to start with just a long sleeve thicker baselayer that I'm cold in to start. I look for a collar to keep the beacon straps off your neck and long sleeves you can push back when you get warm.
I just use the cheap polypro for the top, and decent light long underwear for the bottom and shell bibs.

I also think that a ball cap is key. It won't keep you very warm, but it helps regulate your temperature through your head where you loose most of your heat anyway. not a problem to sweat in, and very useful in sun, snow, rain, and wind.

I bring a shell jacket to ski down in, a down sweater for when I don't stay warm when I am skiing, and extra gloves, because warm hands are very important to me.

Originally Posted by Kai

I'm going to be the lone voice against merino wool.

Add me as voice #2. I love merino wool for lift skiing, but it soaks up too much moisture for touring for my sweaty Viking ass.

So, do I correctly assume that nobody else around here uses VB's or quasi-VB's? WTF?

i personally don't like VB at all. not my cup of tea.


also curious how hard of an exertion people skin at?

i personally try to skin at a pace i can breathe only through my nose, and can/could carry conversation. that keeps me from generally breaking a sweat in the first place, and then regulate temp accordingly. personally i really only am breaking a sweat while touring if its well above 32F. and i am a big sweaty dude.

i guess i don;t see how or why people would be huffing and puffing away, especially at lower elevations? we are generally between 11500 and 13500 feet all day long...

My body produces insensible sweat at any level of exertion, so slowing down doesn't do it for me. By contrast, the GF has no need for VB's and can notch down to a no-sweat level by merely venting. Nonetheless, she really loves her next-to-skin garment.

Surprised that nobody else has tried the new next-to-skin stuff. IMV, it's the answer for sweaty Viking aerobics.

My body produces insensible sweat at any level of exertion, so slowing down doesn't do it for me. Maybe I'm 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 20 or whatever. By contrast, the GF has no need for VB's and can notch down to a no-sweat level by merely venting. Nonetheless, she really loves her next-to-skin garment.

Surprised that nobody else has tried N2S stuff. IMV, it's the answer for sweaty Viking aerobics.

Originally Posted by Big Steve

Surprised that nobody else has tried the new next-to-skin stuff. IMV, it's the answer for sweaty Viking aerobics.

interesting. might have to try the newer stuff. been at least 5 years. what with being 3/4 Norwegian, 1/4 Danish

big steve, explain the next to skin business to me like i am stupid. i am sitting at the tire store waiting for snows put on... nothing better to do...

It would take too much text and too much time to give a full answer, so here's the short version. It's based mostly on my experience of experimenting with this stuff for 20+ years, but also on some research in my effort understand why some systems work better (for me) than others.

As neufox47 observed above, evaporation of water requires enormous amounts of energy (recall discussion of latent energy in physics class) -- so, when the steam rises from we sweathog tourists that's an indication are burning lots of calories that would be better spent getting our asses up the hill and/or staying warm when we take a lunch break.

If, like me, one is going to sweat anyway (or produce insensible sweat, i.e., the sweat in your skin that doesn't get to the surface but nonetheless evaporates thus producing a chill) no matter the level of exertion or temp, the idea is to: (a) confine the inevitable vapor to a small amount; (b) confine the vapor to a small space; and (c) confine the vapor within a barrier so that one is not constantly trying to heat up the earth's atmosphere. Skin divers figured this out a long time ago. So did Yvon Chouinard and the other early proponents of VB's.

Numerous studies confirm that, generally, increased vapor pressure over the skin results in less sweat. That's an important point. It may be counterintuitive to those who have drunk the Gore breathe-or-you-will die propaganda, but it's quite obvious to we VB users.

I'll skip a discussion re the problems with a base layer under a semi-permeable (e.g., Gore Tex, eVent) membrane, other than to say that, for some, the moisture collects in the base layer and then transports via capillary action to form wet spots, aka "puddling" (e.g., sweat in the small of one's back, a problem augmented by a backpack).

The N2S stuff eliminates the capillary layer and thus does not allow the moisture to move parallel to the skin. This advances the objective of confining the amount of moisture in any one place, i.e., prevents "puddling" and resultant cold spots.

IMO, after lots of experimentation, the best N2S full-on VB is RBH Design stuff, which, for reasons beyond my ability to perceive, disperses the vapor quite evenly. By contrast, the Stephenson "fuzzy stuff" VB sucks. 2-layer VB's, e.g., silnylon over a thin base layer, don't work worth a damn because of the capillary effect.

Okay, so now to the new N2S stuff which is not full-on VB, e.g., Gore Windstopper N2S. For a sweaty user, the PTFE membrane is a vapor barrier to some extent -- i.e., when the vapor emitted from the body exceeds the membrane's ability to move the vapor past the membrane. That's somewhere around 99% of the time I'm moving, regardless of temp or level of exertion. Of course, N2S stuff is not a full-on VB because some amount of vapor is transported past the PTFE membrane. But the PTFE significantly slows down the vapor transmission for a sweaty guy, hence my terms "quasi-VB" and "semi-VB." The slowing down advances objectives (a), (b) and (c), i.e., confining amount of sweat, confining the scope of the sweaty space and preventing the vapor from freely escaping, thus keeping the outer layers dry and not burdening the user from attempting to constantly heat up the Earth's atmosphere. Add (d): the PTFE membrane's blocking of wind, which greatly accelerates the evaporation and resultant energy suck and chilling.

Okay, so you might deem the above as stream of consciousness palaver. Maybe it is. It certainly is incomplete, a woeful attempt to distill a complex subject that I've been tinkering with for years.

Trying is believing. MO and/or others, you might grab a MH Transition Jacket (the one with the hood, not the SP with the knit back). Get one that fits pretty snug to avoid air pockets. Wear it next to skin and try it on a tour. It may or may not work for you -- rates of sweat and insensible sweat rate vary wildly between individuals -- but I'd bet that you'll dig it after some experimentation. If you get chilled, layer over it. Leave all base layers at home -- the N2S is the base layer.

For really cold temps, I'll use my RBH stuff.

NFI in MH, RBH, etc. I've been outside the outdoor industry for 25 years.

Big Steve: Do you change your strategy when on multi-day tour where you're camping? I wonder about all that moisture and how it will not be appreciated by a down sleeping bag.

Great info here.
I use a light poly to start with a soft shell (cloudveil) on top. When i summit, i usually put on a gore pro top. That keeps the heat in and the cold and wind out. Sometimes i will use a 700 fill puffy.
I sweat like a pig. I have worked on getting the correct set up for years and no matter how many differnet variations i use, i am soaked by the time i get up.

This is what i have found to be the best, but it still is not that affective for me.