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  1. #1
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    new ski tuning - setting base bevel

    prepping skis for the season, and don't want to ruin my new skis

    I've been running 1 degree base bevels on most of my skis

    I use the SVST final cut base bevel tool (use moonstone diamond files 100,200)

    For removing case hardened areas on the base edge and to set the initial bevel, I'm considering a nice file
    (either carbide or other type of harder file)

    Any mags or shop mags using nice files for this task?

    Have any of you found a reasonably priced tool to measure bevels?

    I'm concerned with over beveling the bases.
    What do the mag tuners do?
    Aggressive in my own mind

  2. #2
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    Without a flat base, setting and measuring edge geometry is a moving target.

    One way to measure base bevels is to use a true bar set on the base edge and measure the height with a caliper or feeler gauge at 60mm (57.3mm). You may need magnification and backlighting to help see better:



    I have been having excellent results using a digital gauge with a magnet epoxied to it's base so it snaps to the edge reliably.



    By spanning the base with a true bar on magnets, you avoid any base variations to get a true level benchmark.



    One problem is that you will never get your bases as accurate as the gauge is and will need to allow some reasonable/acceptable margin of error. it is more accurate than the hand tools are. You'd be amazed how variable the edges are within 1/2 degree.]

    Having said that, your edge maintenance should be focused on the side edge and do little with the base edge after establishing geometry, other than deburring and light polishing. The more you sharpen the base edge the more you will cut into the base or typically over bevel, requiring base removal to reset.

    Diamonds and stones are more forgiving than files because they remove less material and are better for routine maintenance, to prolong edge life and provide smoother, sharp edges.

    Here's routine edge tuning in a nutshell:



    HTH
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  3. #3
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    Are these brand new skis? Are they not set with bevel at the factory? That should be pretty reliable these days. 1 and 1 is pretty common.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by L7 View Post
    Are these brand new skis? Are they not set with bevel at the factory? That should be pretty reliable these days. 1 and 1 is pretty common.
    Not necessarily. You should always inspect your base flatness and edge angles first. Even if they are not quite as expected or advertised, you might want to ski them first before making any adjustments.
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  5. #5
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    What skis do you have? I just got some Chetlers and they are 1.5 base.
    Like Aplinord said, I always ski them first. Who knows, you may love the way they ski.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoarhey View Post

    I use the SVST final cut base bevel tool (use moonstone diamond files 100,200)

    For removing case hardened areas on the base edge and to set the initial bevel, I'm considering a nice file
    (either carbide or other type of harder file)

    Any mags or shop mags using nice files for this task?

    I'm concerned with over beveling the bases.
    What do the mag tuners do?
    I have the same set up as you, SVST 1.0 deg. I've worked on some pretty beat up skis. After fighting the case hardened areas with the diamond files, I gave up and started using a carbide file. My experience is that the bevel tool won't let me remove too much material. This is based on the evidence that after using the carbide file I can still get a good polish on the edge with the diamond files, using the bevel tool. I figure if the carbide file removed too much material, the diamond files wouldn't touch the metal.

  7. #7
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    I do check the flatness of the bases with a true bar and backlight.
    In the past, I've used a panzar file to bring down edge-high skis.
    I have the skivisions tool for planing the base (base high skis), and to get bases relatively flat.

    stradissimo, i agree that the base file guide prevents taking away too much material as long as I don't over-pressure, which can lead to taking out base material adjacent to the edge. Putting some base bevel on the bases :-)

    Alpinord, thanks for the info. I agree, I don't do much on the base edge after intial geometry set-up.

    Most tuners I have spoken too find that the factory tunes have some variation in base and edge bevel and a good hand-tune to set up the skis is important to reduce variability.
    Aggressive in my own mind

  8. #8
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    Holmenkol makes a nice file for base tuning and case hardening. 13 tpi model. The swix racing pro file meduim is great for seroius case hardened edges but rather expensive and small, it is hard to hold on a svst base edge guide. Also make sure your black replacement guides on your svst base beveler are in good shape, or it will change your angle slightly.

  9. #9
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    I try not to wreck files on hardened areas. I tend to encourage you to never file first if the edge has been hardened. I say flatten the deck with a machine if you can (stone grind or wet belt)...but working at home I tend to do the same thing with hand sanding, single strokes tip to tail with 100 for wet or old snow or 150 for cold or new snow...silicon carbide paper and using a precise block to ensure flatness.

    And again, I got to a point where I did not want to ruin files on chewed up hardened areas so I built myself a small side-edger out of a belt sander so that I could take hardened side edges down to a 90.

    At that point I could work the really chewed up hardened areas with a hard stone, then set bevels with files and guides. My files lasted much longer once I started doing this.

    I went to 1.5 base on all my skis in 2002 and really like it. People think it's weird but I started going with 1.5 base and 90 side, that was mostly because I was skiing utah...but it still does hold on hard snow and it stays sharper longer. The 1.5 base, for me and IMHO, feels less grabby and a lot more stable from turn to turn, and gives a smoother more consistent feel for sliding out turns in the steeps.

    I've also been known to just hand sand/round off sections of edge that were really severely chewed up. Hard stones are your friend. I experimented for a while with some metal epoxies to try to build those divots back up but nothing would really ever hold for long.

    this is all pretty much geared toward free-skiing skis that see a lot of rock damage. If you're talking about race skis the machinery and methods would be much more precise, and you wouldn't be dealing with shit tons of rock damage...apples and oranges. I tend to chime in here because there are sort of two worlds of tuning, and it tends to be that people who are considered true experts of tuning are very race-centric in their approach...I came more from the school of having a demo fleet getting demolished on rocks every day in Taos and Crested Butte and dealing with tons of rock damage without the same level of precision. I think it's just two different games.
    Last edited by ill-advised strategy; 11-11-2010 at 11:01 AM.

  10. #10
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    One way to make sure you don't take too much material away is to draw on the entire length of the edge with a sharpie. As you remove edge material, the amount of sharpie remaining on the edge is reduced from the outside in. Stop when you don't see any more sharpie on the edge.

    And yes, a file is good for this, and much faster than using diamond stones.

  11. #11
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    Do you race?
    Are you a professional skier? (I'm guessing no, if you live in Chicago)
    Do you really notice the difference in a millimeter here or there?

    If they're brand new, just polish them, and maybe detune the tip and tail a little. You shouldn't have to set a new bevel. When you have to resharpen them, put them at 1*.

    I can't believe some of these threads lately. I mean, I think I can tell the difference between a 1 or 2cm mount. But sometimes I can't even tell the difference between lifted and nonlifted bindings. Most people are just kidding themselves with ramp angles, wax temperatures, etc.

    Seriously, they're brand new. If they're from a brand known for a quality finish, and you're worried about ruining them, DON'T TOUCH THEM.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  12. #12
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    ^^^ I don't know... my S3's were really hooky until I put a 1-degree base bevel on them and detuned the tips and tails.

    I agree, some details are over-analyzed, but not all.

  13. #13
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    The softer the snow, the less the accuracy matters. But, you can really tell a degree here or there on both base and side edges. A difference of 1° on a base angle is more dramatic and affects your skiing more than the same amount on the side edge.

    It is good practice to be consistent with your tuning progressions. Variations will occur naturally but should remain within your personal preferences for level of acceptable tolerances.

    If you really want to feel the differences, tune and wax one ski completely different than the other.

    Regarding DIY base flattening, SkiVisions now has a File Flattener that uses a 2nd cut crosscut file in a plane similar to the Base Flattener and Structuring tool. It is predominately for flattening concave/railed skis and takes down the edges as well. I'm liking mine and ideally complements the Base Flattener with some crossover. Definitely, hit the case/work hardened edges with a stone first before using the files, however...unless you go with a carbide. T4B now has a line of nice laser cut files, including real sweet NTT stainless steel pro carvers.

    If you are having trouble keeping your files or diamonds in your Final Cut, you might consider a Final Cut Block or make one with foam on the bottom:

    Last edited by Alpinord; 11-11-2010 at 02:02 PM.
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoarhey View Post
    I do check the flatness of the bases with a true bar and backlight.
    In the past, I've used a panzar file to bring down edge-high skis.
    I have the skivisions tool for planing the base (base high skis), and to get bases relatively flat.

    stradissimo, i agree that the base file guide prevents taking away too much material as long as I don't over-pressure, which can lead to taking out base material adjacent to the edge. Putting some base bevel on the bases :-)
    I also use the skivisions planer and find that the 100% hand tune is better than any shop's machine tune or stonegrind. And I've had skis done by very good shops/tuners.

    I use an aggressive mill file or a panzer to set base bevel, with a beast file guide, and then diamond stone by hand to polish. I find that using an aggressive file that can both cut with less pressure and cut ptex is the best way to get a more accurate bevel without over beveling. I sometime use a metal square tube on top of the file, similar to the above wooden block.

    On some skis that take a major beating that I don't feel like planing down, I will use the panzer agressively with a base file guide, imparting bevel to both the edge and base. Seems to ski just fine for the most part, but will take heavy planing to bring the base back down when it's time.

    I use .7-1.0 base on some freeskiing skis that will see ice/piste use, but use a 1.5 on skis for trees, bumps and soft snow. Or I wil re-bevel a .7 to a 1.5 if there are nicks and I don't want to plane.

    I do not typically measure with a true bar, even though I am familliar with the method above and can do it. It is easy to estimate base bevel and consistancy by running the end of a sideways diamond stone along the base edge for touchup/polishing - how far the other end sticks up indicates the bevel as above.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Do you race?
    Are you a professional skier? (I'm guessing no, if you live in Chicago)
    Do you really notice the difference in a millimeter here or there?

    If they're brand new, just polish them, and maybe detune the tip and tail a little. You shouldn't have to set a new bevel. When you have to resharpen them, put them at 1*.

    I can't believe some of these threads lately. I mean, I think I can tell the difference between a 1 or 2cm mount. But sometimes I can't even tell the difference between lifted and nonlifted bindings. Most people are just kidding themselves with ramp angles, wax temperatures, etc.

    Seriously, they're brand new. If they're from a brand known for a quality finish, and you're worried about ruining them, DON'T TOUCH THEM.
    Some (many) factory tunes are exceptionally poor and over beveled in the base. It's not uncommon to see a 2-3 degree base bevel, which is fine for the average gaper because it holds (as long as it stays sharp) and makes the ski easy to ski.

    The difference between a 0 degree, .7 degree, 1.5 degree and 2.5 degrees is HUGE, especially if you have decently stiff boots and bindings and are on a performance midfat ski. 0 deg will be virtually impossible to ski, not able to slide a turn without chatter. .7 will be very aggressive but skiable, super solid in a carve, tough to skid but doable. 1.5 deg will be pretty easy to slide/pivot but you can find an edge when you need it. 2.5 deg will be super easy to pivot but hard to find an edge. These are huge differences in feel and not subtle at all.

    Side edge is somewhat noticeable, but not really. I usually use 2 deg and call it good.

    Base bevel set is probably the single most important variable in ski tuning, as far as impacting how your whole equipment setup feels and responds. (assuming the skis are sharp, have wax and some sort of structure)

    If he's skiing the midwest, he's on ice, and yes this matters, quite a bit.

  16. #16
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    How many here have tried two different bevels on there base? For example maybe a 1.5* on the tip and tail and 1* underfoot. I have a couple friends that do this and say they get the best of both worlds, the ability to carve and pivot/slide. been courios about something like this but have yet to try for myself.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ski school graduate View Post
    How many here have tried two different bevels on there base? For example maybe a 1.5* on the tip and tail and 1* underfoot. I have a couple friends that do this and say they get the best of both worlds, the ability to carve and pivot/slide. been courios about something like this but have yet to try for myself.
    Yes, it can work pretty well but I haven't experimented with it in a few years. I don't bother with it anymore and like the consistancy of a single base bevel. However, I never detune the tip and tail of a ski in a traditional sense - if it's needed or someone asks for detuning, I will increase the base bevel a few inches in. Overall, it really is just a type of detuning.

    You can also try the reverse of what you describe on carving skis, such as .7-1 underfoot tapering to 0 tip and tail - this will provide an exceptionally solid, locked in edge tip-to-tail while carving, but still let you slide the ski underfoot with good technique, though it will be a bit hooky. This works because the bevel is compensating for the torsional twisting of the ski.
    Last edited by Damian Sanders; 11-11-2010 at 03:39 PM.

  18. #18
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    The fastest way to wreck a file or diamond is to remove case hardened burrs. The best & cheapest way to remove case hardened burrs is to use an alu-oxide stone - just a few passes will do it & then you're ready to use a file/diamond which will now last waaay longer.

    Adding a tad more base bevel at the tips & tails is the modern solution to curing a grabby/hooky ski (compared to the detuning) as it allows the edge to engage more progressively but still gives full length sharpness when the ski is fully tipped.

  19. #19
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    Changing the base bevel along the edge is known as a radial or progressive bevel. As Jon noted, it has been the better option than detuning, however, with rockered skis, some have reported they prefer detuning. Any consensus here?
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    .....with rockered skis, some have reported they prefer detuning. Any consensus here?
    I tune my Llasa's to 1,3 full length sharp with no detuning or additional base bevel at the tip or tail (just like I've set all my previous skis) & they behave perfectly.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    Not necessarily. You should always inspect your base flatness and edge angles first. Even if they are not quite as expected or advertised, you might want to ski them first before making any adjustments.
    I inspect them by skiing them. It's been years since I've had to do squat and first tune generally finds they are pretty bang on.

    For the tip and tail bevel a half a degree extra either end works great for lots of skis.
    Last edited by L7; 11-13-2010 at 12:09 PM.
    It's not so much the model year, it's the high mileage or meterage to keep the youth of Canada happy

  22. #22
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    I concur with everything said here.

    Hoarhey- I now you log a few hundred side country runs at Jackson every year, so that would put less of a premium on base bevel in general, but a check of said bevel never hurt anyone.

    Alpinord, dig the little file holder for the SVST bevel guide! You should see the calluses on my fingers in April when the season ends!

    We use the Vallorbe Icecut files in our shop, probably use 30 in a season. They seem to cut pretty well, and last quite awhile for the abuse they get here (lots of hammered skis, not so many race tunes). Liberal use of the file card and speedsauce (or water with a minute amount of dishsoap helps too.)

    With the SVST file guide, remember that the silver bar that runs along the base is setting your angle, and the file will take material until it reaches the bar that runs along edge on the plastic feet. Many a new tech or someone I was demonstrating the process too takes too little material- i.e. quits before they reach the full one degree. The prime culprit is not moving the file and it clogging, feels like you are not getting any thing- move it over a couple of teeth and Voila! getting more material.

    I have found that one degree does take a little base material too, like less than a mm, but you can usually see it with the naked eye.

    If you have a volkl or K2, they will have the right base bevel in general, a Stockli, well those crazy Swiss love a .5 and just tell everyone they are sending out skis with a one.

    The progressive bevel is something we do all the time, especially with people who ski a fatter ski everyday, carve in a bit of 1.5 in the tip and tail, let them ski it and maybe carve in more or not depending what they think.

    Way back when the first Legend Pros came out, I was mounting Tommy Moe's pair and he insisted that he wanted 2 degree base and 2 side, he said "Nobis said that is the shit" so if 2 and 2 is good enough for those guys it definitely opened up my eyes to some new thinking- to me more than one degree was crazy talk!

    Looking more closely though, if you consider the widths of skis today and how fast that wider platform can be pressured, look where the knee is relative to the ski edge, it makes complete sense. Anything over 95mm I run 1.5 and 2 and anything over 105 I pretty much run 2 and 2. I always start progressively, but end up carving in more base bevel till it is tip to tail. It makes sense to go in small increments though, because you can remove that edge material easily, but to reduce base bevel requires a careful and patient hand at our manual feed stone grinder.

    I have some Blogs and Atlases this year so It will be interesting to see how progressive beveling will work with early rise. I will try to report back later this year.

  23. #23
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    I used to put a 2 degree to 1 degree progressive base on my long long skis back when I skied long long (215+) skis.

  24. #24
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    Thanks everyone for their responses.

    The skis I'm tuning will be used skiing in mountainous areas, in areas mainly devoid of ice, i.e. not chicago.

    YetiMan made a good point about apples and oranges.

    I'm not looking for racing precision, even though it may appear so in my questions.

    SuperGaper, thanks for your comments!
    your experience with moe/nobis and subsequently going to higher base bevels is interesting.
    Aggressive in my own mind

  25. #25
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    SuperGaper, sounds like you need to order some TFC Blocks and Tungsten Carbide files from SVST for the shop. Supposedly, the TC files last at least 10 times what an HC Ice Cut does.

    FTR, per SkiVisions who now offer their SkiSharp stones in a 4"/100mm length and have added ceramic stones:

    Green Stones. The green stones are aggressive silicon carbide stones that love to eat hard metal. THEY ARE NOT POLISHING STONES. They have very specific purposes.
    NEW SKIS. See the index regarding tuning new skis. These stones are for working edges that have been hardened at the ski factory from misuse of the tuning equipment.
    HARD SNOW. When you want your edges sharper than you are getting with the 180 grit ruby stones but you don't want to go to the extra steps involved with going to the files and subsequent polishing routines. The finish we like for hard snow is sharpen with the green stones, polish with the ceramic stones, and that is it, this combination works great!
    HI SPEED STEEL BLADE SHARPENING. This is the sharpening stone we make for sharpening the steel blade. It is an 80 grit green silica carbide stone and it loves to cut into very hard materials like hi speed steel.
    FTR: The Vallorbe Ice Cut Special Hard Metal Race file and the Tools4Boards NTT Hard "Specia" Steel Race File files are both Swiss made and look identical to me. Tools4Boards/Innovation Inc/Briko-Maplus (one of our suppliers) has come out with their own brand of files comparable to the Vallorbes and Vallorbe Ice Cuts, but my suspicion <confirmed> is that that like many tuning tools and vises, etc, they are a rebranded Swiss Vallorbe Special Hard Metal File or something very similar.

    Edit: from T4B, their view:

    A general comment about case hardened edges - diamond is harder than any steel, so removing case hardening initially with a coarse diamond like <a> 100 grit diamond stone would work best, then follow with a T4B NTT.
    Last edited by Alpinord; 11-12-2010 at 09:15 AM.
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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