Wasatch Conditions 10-11

**hoarhey** · 10-31-2010, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by SheRa

One more question - do you guys know of any maps/documentation of the slide paths in lcc?

This guy has some nice maps.
I think he's on the board, but don't remember his username.

Both lcc and bcc maps are available.

http://www.avalanchemapping.org/Avatlas.htm

**shera** · 10-31-2010, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by icelanticskier

you'll find some cool stuff at all elevations/aspects all season long. visit them all. a good place to start would be the twin lakes pass area, north facing patsy, s/sw/w facing east emma, and east facing off of pass. with very little walking you'll see/poke at a bunch of different snow types and see very quickly how the snow changes in a very short distance. plus you get some fun laps in and around there as well. close to the bar. some days after doing a white/pink/red pine tour, i'd drive up past the ski hill and crooze up to the pass for sunset and farm any of north facing patsy that was left untracked. easy croozer back down the road at tours end.

yer gonna love it.

rog

Very nice, thank you.

I need to find one face to dig on over the season, kinda got an idea in my mind already since it isn't too far up grizzley gulch. Brent if you're reading this I mean up where we were jumping off that one rock all afternoon last year. Northish facing.

avalanchemapping.org is so cool! The names of the paths are especially helpful. Now I want to associate those names with trigger conditions/frequency. Maybe something like snowy torrents to read descriptions of slides. Around here we have certain paths that might slide like clockwork almost every cycle and some that are hundred year storm slides. Some slides only run wet in the spring while some are midwinter slabs, etc...

**AltaPowderDaze** · 10-31-2010, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by hoarhey

This guy has some nice maps.
I think he's on the board, but don't remember his username.

Both lcc and bcc maps are available.

http://www.avalanchemapping.org/Avatlas.htm

avmapper

**CookieMonster** · 10-31-2010, 08:53 AM

surface hoar's primarily a maritime issue, that's why last year was so anomalous. usually when it's clear and calm here it's so dry that there's not enough moisture in the air to form surface hoar, while it's obviously abundant in coastal ranges. correct me if i'm wrong but that's my understanding.

( This is not correct. Surface hoar formation is not linked to any particular snow climate, rather, surface hoar formation is linked to specific meteorological conditions. )

Surface hoar forms when there is a temperture gradient between the snow and the air. Snow warms in the sun during the day, gets moist, it get cold and clear and then that moisture moves to the surface to create the hoar frost. In other words, Utah is a great climate for surface hoar, you see it forms during most periods of high pressure.

( This is not correct. The temperature gradient required for surface hoar formation is created when the snow sheds heat through longwave radiation loss. Humid air is the source of moisture for surface hoar, not liquid in the existing snow cover. )

I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff, but my understanding is that buried surface hoar is generally referred to as just that - buried surface hoar (or hoar layers). Depth hoar is what forms due to vapor transport processes/temperature gradients in the snowpack....

( This is correct. )

Ok, just to clear things up The most common types of avalanche instability-Martime Snowpack- new snow instability Continental Snowpack- persistent weak layer(suface/hoar frost, facets etc.) The Wasatch is usually somewhere in the middle of these two depending on the year.Lest you continue to spread your ignorance, take an avalanche class, before you get yourself or someone else killed in the backcountry.

( This is partially correct, but what you're really talking about is direct-action avalanches that form in surface snow, and delayed-action avalanches which form deeper in the snowpack. You can find some of each in most climates. For powder days in Utah, you have to worry about both types of avalanches. Both will kill you with relative ease. )

You don't have to worry too much about the technical details of surface haor formation or snow climate. The UAC forecast always has lots of good info about what to think about before you go skiing.

**Mark H** · 10-31-2010, 05:10 PM

Ok here is one of the maps we designed

We also made these with aerial photos for the base.

(for some reason the north arrow gets changed to a weird +- symbol when I convert these to jpg so sorry about that)

An overview of all the routes we made maps for

**tyfalk** · 10-31-2010, 08:06 PM

Above 9,800, moderate density snow still remains on N-NE aspects. Some wet activity on typical aspects.

**icelanticskier** · 10-31-2010, 08:10 PM

form!

rog

**Shredgar** · 10-31-2010, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by SheRa

One more question - do you guys know of any maps/documentation of the slide paths in lcc?

Also look for Alpentech maps at your local backcountry shop, they show avalanche path information:

http://www.alpentech.net/cgi-bin/alp...chCatalog.html

**TeleThor** · 11-01-2010, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mark H

Ok here is one of the maps we designed

We also made these with aerial photos for the base.

(for some reason the north arrow gets changed to a weird +- symbol when I convert these to jpg so sorry about that)

An overview of all the routes we made maps for

I was at that meeting/discussion at Wild Rose last year. I recall one of the issues being that giving out maps of "safe zones" to go to during high danger conditions was not necessarily a good idea. I tend to agree. What did the UAC end up deciding? Never saw those maps on the site last season.

**Slaag Master** · 11-01-2010, 11:21 PM

much of the pow is gone but conditions at alta - east greely area - today were fine. some rollers later in the day.

**ectreeskier11** · 11-01-2010, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Slaag Master

much of the pow is gone but conditions at alta - east greely area - today were fine. some rollers later in the day.

slaag- hit me up when you want to grab those boards.

**Slaag Master** · 11-02-2010, 10:20 AM

today would work - either before or after Altan and i ski alta

**paj** · 11-02-2010, 02:10 PM

Is there a still a lot of snow up there? Can we hope it melts off or expect it to cause avvy problems down the road? The mtn cams make it look like theres a lot of snow up there still- even s. facing.

**ectreeskier11** · 11-02-2010, 02:25 PM

needs to melt or we're not looking good for early season - again.

**Slaag Master** · 11-02-2010, 09:36 PM

all of our recent skiing has been at alta. conditions are getting dangerous on most aspects other than north faces or groomers. big gaps are opening over underlying rock. rollers were a real danger this afternoon. Altan hit a dead roller late in the day, close to 6 pm, and pulled his calf. much of this current snow will be greatly reduced before the next possible storm. from here on out we are going to stick to groomers or protected north faces.

**skiski** · 11-02-2010, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by ectreeskier11

needs to melt or we're not looking good for early season - again.

I was wondering if surface hoar/facets will form under these conditions. On the non-north faces, I figure the sun is probably keeping the surface wet, with poor nighttime refreezes.
But, it also looks like the lowest low at 10k' from now until the weekend (when it starts snowing again) is about 30 degrees. I've also always been told that the ground temp averages somewhere around freezing.

I've always understood that greater temp gradients cause surface hoar formation. We have a thin snowpack, so it obviously won't take much difference in ground/temp versus air temp to cause a significant gradient. However, here we're only looking at a difference between ground and air temps of about 2 degrees (maybe more higher up, but still, this isn't the 30 degree difference you have in December when it's getting to be 0 at night). So shouldn't the gradient be low, and the facets slow to form?

Yes, I could go up and look. But I'm trying to get shit squared away so I can ski in a few weeks when the snow starts to fly.

**ectreeskier11** · 11-02-2010, 10:50 PM

surface hoar- no, absolutely not. as has been proven time and time again, i'm not the resident avalanche expert. but, when you have a layer of snow that falls on the ground and is being warmed from both sides, and you have the crystals melting and forming sugary stuff, which is essentially what depth hoar is, and then you get a bunch of new snow falling over it, you've got a shitty weak layer that can propagate slides to the ground pretty damn easily. if it all melts, than we're back to square one and don't have to worry about it.

**Slaag Master** · 11-02-2010, 11:33 PM

^^^nice..........

**jeri534** · 11-03-2010, 01:15 AM

figure Id make my first post here, great pics guys, learning a lot from just reading the forums. Moving down to SLC in a few weeks, can't wait

**Skidog** · 11-03-2010, 09:03 AM

I think we have another shot of snow early next week....

**Trackhead** · 11-03-2010, 11:30 AM

Has Alta shut down uphill traffic yet?

**Skidog** · 11-03-2010, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Has Alta shut down uphill traffic yet?

I dont think so..they usually wait until like the week before opening, least thats how its been the last couple years.

Its also usually posted on their main page of the website. I just looked and didnt see anything yet.

If you go...please update here so I know whats what...thanks TH.

**lionelhutz** · 11-03-2010, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

I think we have another shot of snow early next week....

There is a pretty solid model consensus that a robust cold front and embedded upper level short waves pops through in the late monday - wednesday time period.

**Skidog** · 11-03-2010, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by lionelhutz

There is a pretty solid model consensus that a robust cold front and embedded upper level short waves pops through in the late monday - wednesday time period.

Lionel im just an armchair weather guy...you however are the MAN....

PM me your blog or is it just on FIS???

Thanks for all the weather reports....SUITE!!!!!!