Thread: Endurance Racing Nutrition?

So I raced my first endurance type race(62 miles 11k vert) and have a 12 hour and 25 hour solo races coming up. I did well in that race, but my gut felt terrible. Finished in under 6 hours, 1st in SS class.

I had started using accelerade on training rides and felt great riding with it, mixing 3 scoops in a 10 oz bottle(paste consistency) and using gu in a flask to supplement. I was using a water bottle for straight water to wash everything down. I was taking in about 300 calories per hour between the gu and accelerade. Even though I felt like shit I kept drinking, because it was all I had and I didn't want to start cramping. I think accelerade uses whey protein? Anyone have similar experiences with gi distress? What product did you end up switching too? Am I going to lose a lot by switching to something without protein for races longer then 5 hours? I actually felt pretty strong my last lap after I cut back on my accelerade intake a bit and drank a little more water.

300 calories an hour is pretty frickin high, especially for your size. I used to shoot for 150-200 calories an hour for 12 hour races. The fact that you felt better when you drank more water and cut back on intake supports the fact that you were "eating" too much.


Find whatever works for your stomach (if it works in training it probably works in races) and also figure out the quantity. The one difference is that over 12 hours you're probably going to want some variety. Try different things while training and have them all available for your long race. You never know what exactly you'll want at aid stations. Seriously, try chips, pretzels, PB&J's, anything that they have available at aid stations and see if you can handle eating them and continuing at race pace. This will make you totally prepared for what they have on course plus what you have in your feed bag and will accomodate any cravings that come up.

This


Washed down with

Originally Posted by JTrue

So I raced my first endurance type race(62 miles 11k vert) and have a 12 hour and 25 hour solo races coming up. I did well in that race, but my gut felt terrible. Finished in under 6 hours, 1st in SS class.

I had started using accelerade on training rides and felt great riding with it, mixing 3 scoops in a 10 oz bottle(paste consistency) and using gu in a flask to supplement. I was using a water bottle for straight water to wash everything down. I was taking in about 300 calories per hour between the gu and accelerade. Even though I felt like shit I kept drinking, because it was all I had and I didn't want to start cramping. I think accelerade uses whey protein? Anyone have similar experiences with gi distress? What product did you end up switching too? Am I going to lose a lot by switching to something without protein for races longer then 5 hours? I actually felt pretty strong my last lap after I cut back on my accelerade intake a bit and drank a little more water.

I know nothing of accelerade except it makes me sick as well.

My current HEED/Gu alittle soild food combo has worked out pretty well for me. At a 170lb I budget a Gu for every hour +1 or 2 extra. IE if I think ill take 5 hour to do the race I take 5-7 and stuff them down my right shorts for easy access.

I make one bottle of super strong HEED keep sipping that while my camelback/other bottle if I have on is straight water. HEED actually sits in my stomach very well. It also has stopped any cramping(muscle or stomach) I went though in the 2009 season. I have not cramped once in a race in 2010.

On protein some circles will say you need it, I have learned some downsides to it though. Your body takes more energy to digest it, which in turns makes you body run hotter. Sometimes those are desirable traits, but often in a long XC race not so much. I think in a 12-24 solo effort you can work it back in as the intensity would be much lower in a 24 hour solo race than a 50 mile XC race.

FYI nick according to some of the fastest SS enduro racers in the country Pflug and Popvrika they suggest eating as much you can stomach during training and during races. they have told me their best effort were when they felt hungry on trail.

Gerry will just eat the course workers if he get hungry though so I guess he eats some protein though.

http://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2009/0...her-facts.html

A few ironman guys I know swear by Hammer's Perpetum. One guy said he particularly likes the Coffee flavored b/c it's a familiar taste and is good warm and cold.

Hammer Nutrition products, link. They make HEED, haven't tried it yet, and also just finished my first endurance cycling event. [did a few 50 and 60k nordic races back in the day, when Snickers was the 'energy bar' of choice.]

Last saturday did an 85 mile road ride. Fairly flat, but pretty challenging weather. Finished in seven hours flat, 12mph ave, previous long rides were 60mi, and best time in those was 10mph ave. Needless to say, i was and still am pretty stoked. Best part, energy and GI were money.

Day before the ride i stopped in the LBS [yay hoback sports!] to pick up some 'shotblocks', as i figured i'd need something extra for a ride of this length. When I asked about when/how much to use for a seven hour event, they said ok, shotblocks aren't your best choice, let's look at the Hammer stuff. Long story short, walked out with gel, two gel bottles and Perpetuem. Went thru half of a gel bottle in the first two hours, and the other half and two bottles of Perpetuem for the next five. Water intake was likely in the 20oz/hr range, from a camel. I hadn't tried it on a training ride, which i was a bit nervous about, but didn't need to be as it turned out great.

What really blew me away was coming into the 70mi checkpoint on big ring, jamming likely close to 30mph, with the same if not more energy i had at mile 3. Amazing. The only other food i had was 6 grapes at 15mi, 2 orange quarters at 40, and one grandma's choco cookie at 70. I can't say enough good about this stuff, and my stomach felt perfectly fine, not even hungry, the whole day.

I've since read a lot about the Hammer stuff, and think they have it nailed. Here's a couple articles that I found most interesting:10 biggest mistakes, how to use hammer fuels. Edit: quick check of Accelerade shows primary nutrients of sucrose and whey protein. Check out Hammer's discussion of the -ose sugars vs their complex carbs, and whey vs soy proteins.

Also might mention that I'd heard of these products before, from a race organizer buddy Chris Kostman. He's a former elite endurance cyclists and one of if not the top sporting organizer in California, putting on such events as the Badwater Ultramarathon, the Furnace Creek 508, and numerous centuries/doubles each year. He is a big fan of Hammer products, and his aid stations [such as in the century i'm doing oct 30] are stocked with Perpetuem, gel, Heed and Enduralytes. Check out the training and nutrition tips on the 508 website. And good luck!!!!

I've been doing some research of late on supplying energy during endurance activities and one topic that doesn't get discussed much deals with Osmolality. Effectiveness of sport drinks is dependent on the osmolality of the product and ignoring osmolality is where imbalances will inhibit gastric emptying, intestinal fluid absorption, and blood flow.

Basically we're talking about osmosis between the gastric fluid and the blood. Blood osmolality sits between 280-290mmol/kg. A hypotonic solution(a lower osmolality than the blood, fewer particles) means there will be a net flow of water into the blood so ideally that is the type of solution you want.

Carbohydrate content of sport drinks seem to exercise the greatest influence of osmolality(electrolytes also contribute), so most physiologists recommend a 6-8% carbohydrate solution or a range of 200-250mmol/kg, slightly less than that of the blood. I use Cytomax which is 22g of carbs/scoop. Filling a 750mL bottle (750x(6-8%)=45-60g) so far I have been trying 2 scoops/bottle. The problem with gus or concentrating one bottle and supplementing with your plain water is you are forced to play biochemist on the run so very difficult to get that correct %.

In practice its been working well but take in mind I'm not racing and only riding about 4 hours, I do ride hard though. Energy has been good throughout and still feel quite fresh at the end and could continue for more. The one downside is I feel hungry, empty stomach, so I've got more to experiment on.

For a food source on the run I'm really liking Elevate Me bars. Simple and natural bars utilizing whey protein. Tasty and sit very well with me. Mind you using these during riding throws all theory mentioned above out the window.

I believe in the Cytomax as it utilizes maltodextrin among other longer chained carbohydrates as the primary fuel source for longer sustained energy.

As far as protein goes DURING sustained ensurance, I think most experts agree it is marketing BS that it promotes recovery. One study I read said that it simply gets converted as a sugar source and utilized. But as mentioned by someone else, it does take more energy to digest and can cause gastric issues. Personally I try to advocate protein use as much as I can but its been tough finding conclusive evidence to support its use during endurance activities.

Originally Posted by robnow

I believe in the Cytomax as it utilizes maltodextrin among other longer chained carbohydrates as the primary fuel source for longer sustained energy.


Personally I try to advocate protein use as much as I can but its been tough finding conclusive evidence to support its use during endurance activities.

Bingo on the maltodextrin/long chain carbs.

I agree on the inconclusivity of research on the mid-event protein, but tend to side with Hammer's analysis and use of soy proteins.

Really interesting stuff on the osmolality, thanks for that. Might have to experiment with mixing the gel into water in a bottle and dosing more consistently that way. It would be easy to make a 2 hour gel bottle, and meter it, then switch to a 2 hour Perpetuem bottle, and another, and another...

+1 on Hammer Nutrition.

I have used Perpetuem + Gel + a (clif) bar or two + ginger chews on many 12 - 24 hour alpine climbs that have similar output rates as biking (I don't pedal bikes any further than necessary to go down) and it works great.

I like to throw in some Recoverite as soon as I am done moving, may be placebo, but it seems to help recovery.

Have lived off this for up to 3 consecutive days of effort with just a little bit of cheese and jerky before and after sleeping. It took a long time to put together what works best, but I'm pretty happy with this combo for climbing.

Keep in mind that if I didn't have to carry it all I would happily eat pizza, bacon, and beer and go even faster .

Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA

FYI nick according to some of the fastest SS enduro racers in the country Pflug and Popvrika they suggest eating as much you can stomach during training and during races. they have told me their best effort were when they felt hungry on trail.

http://teamdicky.blogspot.com/2009/0...her-facts.html

I agree with eating as much as you can stomach. My experience is mostly running for the long stuff with some biking/adventure races thrown in. Every activity is different. For running I could not do more than 200 calories an hour without gastric distress. It sounds like Mr. True is having gastric distress at 300 calories an hour, hence the suggestion to try cutting back.

You guys can blather on about maltodextrin this and glucose that, as far as I'm concerned if it's sugary/salty and you can handle it in training than you can handle it on the race course. Some of the top ultramarathon guys eat random shiat at the end of races even with their finally tuned race prep. Chips, flat coke, PB&J's, maybe even beaterdits jerky and PBR for the win!

Originally Posted by Daywalker

You guys can blather on about maltodextrin this and glucose that, as far as I'm concerned if it's sugary/salty and you can handle it in training than you can handle it on the race course. Some of the top ultramarathon guys eat random shiat at the end of races even with their finally tuned race prep. Chips, flat coke, PB&J's, maybe even beaterdits jerky and PBR for the win!

For that matter there are people doing full day endurance events with no gel, no sports drink, just water and real food. More power to 'em. Personally, if i'm pushing myself for more than a couple hours, particularly in a competitive event, I want to eat and drink what has been proven to work the best. If you want to eat real food, get little immediate nutrition and divert blood flow from exercise to digestion, go for it! Sure tho, the last hour of any event is fair game for anything...

To expand on the comments about info from Hammer, check out the Hammer Nutrition Fueling Handbook:

http://www.hammernutrition.com/downl...nghandbook.pdf

I found this to give a great overview on the topic, along with good recommendations to use as as starting point.

Went out for a 2.5 hour ride today and hammered pretty hard to see if I could make myself sick. Probably about 20 miles and 3400 vert. Used the same setup I used during the race except mixed one less scoop of accelerade in the 10 oz flask. Supplemented with gu and water. Didn't really feel sick, but didn't feel awesome, somewhere in the middle. I want accelerade to work, since I get it cheap. But I think I might give perpetuem a try, if it works and doesn't cause any gi issues it's worth it. If that doesn't work, I will probably just try the Gu Electrolyte Brew(got some on order) with no protein and go from there.

Edit: Anyone know the amount of caffeine in the cafe latte perpetuem? I use the espresso gu which has about 40mg in 1.1 oz(1/2 cup of coffee).

HammerGel seconded (or 4thed) - whatever,

Dont know any thing about the science - i just know that every Sat on our 6:30 AM 60 mile roadie ride - i wake up, bibs on, PBJ sandwich, cup coffee, bottle of water or two, 2 bottles of GUBREW and a flask of of HammerGel on the bike and i am good to go - that stuff is the best. we keep a fairly decent pace on rolling hills here.

Originally Posted by JTrue

Edit: Anyone know the amount of caffeine in the cafe latte perpetuem? I use the espresso gu which has about 40mg in 1.1 oz(1/2 cup of coffee).

25mg in two scoops of Perpetuem, the portion for a 'one hour bottle', or 50mg in one serving of espresso gel, =1.7Tablespoons.

I like the taste of the Hammer Gels I have tried and they do not need to be washed down with water to avoid cramping like some of the others I have tried. I've also tried their HEED- mainly after the rides and it can cause me some cramping or stomach issues. Not sure if it is the mix or what. I've even tried it with more water than the package recommends.

Last weekend was my first Triathlon. I did some peanut butter on toast as part of a bit bigger breakfast than I normally eat each morning. Something started talking back to me on the bike and continued through on the run. Not fun burping through a race. So lesson learned to say with what works... I could not get any Hammer Gels flavors I have used in the past, the day before the event- only their Expresso which has caffeine added also.

Originally Posted by RShea

I like the taste of the Hammer Gels I have tried and they do not need to be washed down with water to avoid cramping like some of the others I have tried. I've also tried their HEED- mainly after the rides and it can cause me some cramping or stomach issues. Not sure if it is the mix or what. I've even tried it with more water than the package recommends.

Last weekend was my first Triathlon. I did some peanut butter on toast as part of a bit bigger breakfast than I normally eat each morning. Something started talking back to me on the bike and continued through on the run. Not fun burping through a race. So lesson learned to say with what works... I could not get any Hammer Gels flavors I have used in the past, the day before the event- only their Expresso which has caffeine added also.

Yeah, availability can be a challenge. I've been using the raspberry gel, no, they don't need to be washed down with water, but that's the only way i kind of enjoy eating it. Plus you still need that ~20ozH2O/hr anyway...

Think that 'too big of a pre-race meal' is one of the ten common mistakes in the Hammer link above. Not that i'm one to talk, in my first 60k ski race, not able to easily find a place with pasta the night before the race, i tripped over an all you can eat fish fry. Note: a bunch of fried fish is NOT what you want to have in your lower system the morning of a big event!

45-60g of carbs per hour, ignore the calorie amount.

A small amount of protein in sports drinks has proven to aid recovery and lessen muscle break down in exertional aerobic activity. Do you need protein in a race, maybe. Read their research posted. I've read all those journal articles in the past, and the consensus is there.

So if you are racing every week, perhaps protein in the drink is good. If you are peaking for one event with good rest after, protein might not be necessary. Maybe try something without protein in it to see if it lessens the nausea.

Or just switch to what Beaterdit suggests, plenty of carbs/protein in that!

the reason you get gi distress is short chain sugars don't mix with high exertion.

the closer you get to your lactate threshold the slower your digestion gets and more picky.

long chain sugars like maltodextrin is where it is at if you are pushing hard.

hammer products all the way. heed up to 2 hours and perpetuem or sustain after that.

i mix some elete for electrolytes and am good to go. on really long rides i bump up the mix a little more and don't even need to take in hard food until the end of the rides. i never get hungry, have gi problems or bonk anymore.

FWIW, when I tried Accelerade/endurox a few years ago it wreaked havoc on my bowels. I switched it up a little but I found that natural ingredients agreed with me best. "Stinger" was at least more digestible. I'm no 12+ hour racer though.

Point of the story is that it is different for everyone. Buy some samples and experiment. Hammer Gel suck for me but some guys swear by it.

Hammer as well, usually suck down a 2 scoop bottle of sustained energy before any ride over 3 hrs. Bring a 4 or 5 scoop bottle of sustained or perpetum with 1 scoop of gatorade for flavor & fill with ice, it seems to mix fine over time as long as the bike is banging over rocks. Supplement with hammer gel and used to throw in a power bar every couple hours or two when I felt hungry, recoverite as well (yeah it may be a placebo but I try to get a bottle of that down before starting in on the beer & nacho recovery plan.

Recently got turned on to the slipstream guy Dr Alan Lim, you tube it, potato recipe has treated me well and the croissant with jelly & cream cheese sounds really good as well but I have not gotten around to that one yet.

The gee-whiz Mr Science approach where you are getting anal about what particular molecules you ingest, that's bullshit.

What does your body require on long rides? Salt replacement (sodium, potassium)... carbohydrates... easily digestible protein.

What's easily digestible? Well, try eating it on a 5 hour or longer ride and see how you handle it.

I have great success with these things:

figs
cashews
water
CLIF bars
CLIF blocks
brown rice syrup
dried papaya spears
ginger chews

sometimes I bring along some leftover pizza slices.

sometimes I bring along a sandwich. PB&J is common. sometimes I make a bigger sandwich with turkey, provolone, mustard, dill pickle relish, and banana peppers.

add THC to taste.

You guys who are just eating bigger quantities of what you'd eat for a 3 hour XC race, you're making yourselves needlessly miserable. If you're going to be putting out effort for most of a day's daylight hours, you shouldn't be restricting yourself to a liquid diet with an occasional tiny edible. That's insane, not to mention completely un-fun.

Originally Posted by creaky fossil

The gee-whiz Mr Science approach where you are getting anal about what particular molecules you ingest, that's bullshit.

What does your body require on long rides? Salt replacement (sodium, potassium)... carbohydrates... easily digestible protein.

--------snip---------

add THC to taste.

You guys who are just eating bigger quantities of what you'd eat for a 3 hour XC race, you're making yourselves needlessly miserable. If you're going to be putting out effort for most of a day's daylight hours, you shouldn't be restricting yourself to a liquid diet with an occasional tiny edible. That's insane, not to mention completely un-fun.

To your first point, what the body requires, i think you're pretty close to spot on. However, the easiest digestible foods are liquids, hence the 'liquid diet'. OilCanRacer hit the nail on the head on the challenge getting nutrition through digestion during exertion.

What's insane and completely un-fun, to me, is not being able to compete at my highest level because i'm not fueling as well as I can. Whatever works for you is great, but a lot of people have put a lot of science into this question, and have some great products. Gotta ask, have you tried doing a 7 hour event on only gel and Perpetuem? I mean if you want to advocate your powergraze system, fine, but bashing the science is kinda head in the sandy...

And great point on the additional spice additive's benefits!

Originally Posted by Tye 1on

To your first point, what the body requires, i think you're pretty close to spot on. However, the easiest digestible foods are liquids, hence the 'liquid diet'. OilCanRacer hit the nail on the head on the challenge getting nutrition through digestion during exertion.

What's insane and completely un-fun, to me, is not being able to compete at my highest level because i'm not fueling as well as I can. Whatever works for you is great, but a lot of people have put a lot of science into this question, and have some great products. Gotta ask, have you tried doing a 7 hour event on only gel and Perpetuem? I mean if you want to advocate your powergraze system, fine, but bashing the science is kinda head in the sandy...

And great point on the additional spice additive's benefits!

Liquids are easier to digest only to a point. I tried the powdered drink mix route several times before and there's definitely a point for me where a too-rich mixture is harder to digest than a block of cheese.

The fact that lots of scientists have spent time energy and money on this tells you only one thing, really: it's profitable as a business niche to sell Mr Science's Mixture (TM) to endurance "athletes."

People mistake polysyllabic pompous "professionals" for experts. Expertise is about 95% salesmanship, 5% substance.

What matters is what works in your body, not what Bednar Subapoostik MD, Head Research Physician at Multi-Nutrients Inc. says is "science tested, science approved."

As to not performing at your optimal, that's a wise approach but it's silly to go from that dissatisfaction to automatic assumption that Bednar Subapoostik MD's wonder-products are the answer. The best answer is using different things and seeing what works for you.

Anyone know any long-distance backpackers who try to survive for several weeks on liquid "supplements"?

Yeppers, if that powdered drink mix was a 'ose' simple sugar, you certainly get to a point where it won't absorb=bonktime.

I'm as suspicious as you of marketing by making grandiose claims. If you know of any of Hammer's conclusions that are not valid, I'd sure be interested to hear!

And hell no, backpacking for weeks on a liquid diet? That would suck! Plus at night when you've stopped exerting, it's a perfect time for the body to digest great camp meals. And whiskey, let's not forget the whiskey...