Beal Ice Line = Beal Rando?

[summit]

I have a brand new Bea Ice Line that has been sitting in the closet for a bit, original coil and tags. Forgot I had it!

I don't ice climb, but I do need a winter mountaineering rope for rappels.

It' a 60m 8.1mm golden dry... looking at the specs:

Half Rope
42g/m
4.9 kN impact force
37% elongation
7 Guaranteed falls

Vs a Beal Rando 8mm rope that a lot of people love to use as a signle for ski mountaineering raps:

Single
37g/m
4.2 kN impact force
36% elongation
5 Guaranteed falls

Apart from being heavier than the Rando, are the impact ratings directly comparable for the single strand?

http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-20..._rando&lang=us

http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-20...escalade&langr

[sfotex]

Not quite sure what your asking.
When your rapping you'll have 2 stands out anyways and you'll probably care more about elongation then impact anyways.

[summit]

I was asking if the Beal Iceline's rating is actually superior to a Rando as I'm not familiar with half ropes and how they are rated.

[DAFTC]

That should work fine as a rap line, assuming you have a device that's designed for skinny ropes (I like the Reversino) and take normal precautions (don't run it over something too sharp, etc.). The ice line is designed to take lead falls as part of a twin rope system. The rando line is not designed to take lead falls. To state the obvious, what people are willing to do on them doesn't always correspond to what the manufacturer is willing to say you can do.

Poke around here if you want more info
http://www.theuiaa.org/safety_standards.php

If I understand your question (not sure about that), half/twin ropes are usually rated as part of a system with another.

[sfotex]

I was asking if the Beal Iceline's rating is actually superior to a Rando as I'm not familiar with half ropes and how they are rated.

The Iceline will work fine then as a rap line. In a half/double system you clip one rope into one piece of protection, alternating between the 2 ropes, so if you fall your effectively falling on one rope. Because halfs work like this the ratings are for one rope. Twins are tested in pairs (both ropes are treated like one rope, i.e both strands are clipped in the same piece of protection) . The rando rope is a twin rope - interestingly enough beal has specs for the rando when it's used as a single strand: http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-20..._rando&lang=us


But yeah, I have ice lines and have rapped plenty with them .

[summit]

Thank you both for those answers.

And for the link.

I use a B-52 which is rated to 7.8mm (and boy is it a slow device when you have 10mm and an 11mm in it like last night).

[counterfeitfake]

Mostly good advice so far.

The ice line is designed to take lead falls as part of a twin rope system. The rando line is not designed to take lead falls...

If I understand your question (not sure about that), half/twin ropes are usually rated as part of a system with another.

Sorry to nitpick but this distinction is important and the terms are kinda weird:

The Ice Line is a "half" rope designed to be used in a "double" rope system.

The Rando is a "twin" rope designed to be used in a "twin" rope system. It's used for glacier travel because glacier falls don't generate much force. You could certainly double the Rando over itself and use both strands to lead hard rock, but you would have very short pitches.

If all you're doing is rapping, it doesn't much matter how the rope is rated.

The Rando is nice because it's short, so it's really light. I would imagine whatever you would want to do with a Rando, you can do with the Ice Line as well, although you're carrying a heavier rope.

I would imagine rapping either of those ropes with a B-52 is gonna be hairy (I think the B-52 just sucks period). I'd either invest in a better device or learn the munter hitch, which is a good lightweight option for light-duty.

[freak]

I would imagine whatever you would want to do with a Rando, you can do with the Ice Line as well, although you're carrying a heavier rope.

yeah, thats it.

freak~[&]

[hemas]

Mostly good advice so far.

Sorry to nitpick but this distinction is important and the terms are kinda weird

More nitpickin'...


Ice Line is double rated, so it can be used both as a half-rope or twin-rope...

Half ropes are tested individually with a 55 kg weight (the UIAA fall test), where as twin ropes are tested as a pair with a 80 kg weight (same weight that is used for single ropes).

But for rappin', this don't matter, since the load is pretty static.

In fact, if the sole purpose is to use the rope for abseiling (not climbing up), a static 7mm kevlar (accesory) cord would prolly be cheaper and more useful (less elongation), plus as it is bought from a reel, you can get the lenght you really want/need.

[sfotex]

More nitpickin'...


Ice Line is double rated, so it can be used both as a half-rope or twin-rope...

Nope, the ice line is only a double/half, the ice twin is a twin (and 7.7 mm). If you look on the ice line there s only a '1/2' (and on the web site: http://www.bealplanet.com/notices/20...p?id=7&lang=us)

[hemas]

Nope, the ice line is only a double/half, the ice twin is a twin (and 7.7 mm). If you look on the ice line there s only a '1/2' (and on the web site: http://www.bealplanet.com/notices/20...p?id=7&lang=us)

Interesting... As I'm about 100% certain it was rated both as a twin- and as a half-rope last year or so, when I was lookin' for a new double...

Ended up with something else though.

[counterfeitfake]

I was wondering recently if you could rap on 6mm perlon using a munter or a monster-munter.

[DAFTC]

I was wondering recently if you could rap on 6mm perlon using a munter or a monster-munter.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/cli...60#a_106485060

[kiwinig]

Be careful here!

Summit the answer to your stated question of "are the impact ratings directly comparable for the single strand?" is NO!

Reason being as Hemas noted the Iceline 1/2 rope figures are for a 55kg weight and a fall factor of 1.8 (i think- which represents about the worst possible lead fall) whereas the Rando stats you mention are for it used as a single strand with an 80kg weight but only a 0.8 fall factor (which is prob appropiate to represent a bad fall into a crevasse)

However, the answer to your implied question of "will this rope be fine to use for rapping/abseiling" is YES - it should be sweet because as others have mentioned its mostly a static load. If you a falling onto the rope while abseiling you're doing it wrong! Also i'm guessing that most of the time you will be abseiling with it doubled up so you can pull it down after you.

Does this make sense? let me know if you want a clearer explanation...

[counterfeitfake]

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/cli...60#a_106485060

Nah, that's not what I'm wondering about- that thread looks like it's about using a skinny tagline in combo with a single-rated rope to do a full-rope-length rap. I'm wondering about using only 6mm perlon for a rap. I am pretty sure it's strong enough, the question is whether there's enough friction.


Also, watch out for JONGery on those forums.

[hemas]

I am pretty sure it's strong enough, the question is whether there's enough friction.

Yeah, it's strong enough provided you don't some how shock load the system...

As for friction, using a dedicated thin-rope belay device (etc. DMM Bugette) and possible two HMS biners... well, I think you might even get too much friction...

And you could always just use a prusic (below the rappel device) to backup yer self (3.5 or 4mm cord would prolly be still suitable).

[jon turner]

In fact, if the sole purpose is to use the rope for abseiling (not climbing up), a static 7mm kevlar (accesory) cord would prolly be cheaper and more useful (less elongation), plus as it is bought from a reel, you can get the lenght you really want/need.

This works if you ONLY ever use the rope in a static situation (rapping/abseiling). Even a very short fall of a foot or two on a static line could have some big consequences. I would prefer to carry the dynamic rope just in case you end up taking a short fall, simulclimbing, have to reclimb something for some reason, emergency situations, crevasse terrain travel, etc. This might be obvious, but it it's worth stating the dynamic ropes Summit is talking about are more versatile than cord, and personally I think this makes the extra weight of the dynamic line worth it. I think others have hashed out the difference between half/double/single ropes in this thread. To note, in most ski mountaineering and glacier travel situations the falls are usually much lower impact than vertical ice or rock, especially if you are doing it correctly. Thus you will find mountaineers often use ropes for travel that would not be suitable for rock/ice climbing.

[sfotex]

There's some firefighter personal escape line rap devices that are good down to 7.5mm lines.
6mm cord strength is around 7kn~, with a knot maybe 5kn -
Bouncing on rappel can generate around 4 kn, so it sounds like
you would be cutting it close...

[counterfeitfake]

There's some firefighter personal escape line rap devices that are good down to 7.5mm lines.
6mm cord strength is around 7kn~, with a knot maybe 5kn -
Bouncing on rappel can generate around 4 kn, so it sounds like
you would be cutting it close...

The knot is a good point... I'd say don't tie a knot.

[snoboy]

I have a rig for escaping a downed chailift (self evac) that is doubled 6mm for pulldown, and a I use a monster Munter. Because the cord is doubled, it meets a 10:1 safety factor easily. I can use a 6mm prusik on it for a backup if I wish. These are obviously freehanging raps. Scary with a regular Munter, OK with the Monster.

Bouncing on rappel shouldn't create more than 2-2.5 x the static load, so 2-2.5 kN

[JoeStrummer]

Nah, that's not what I'm wondering about- that thread looks like it's about using a skinny tagline in combo with a single-rated rope to do a full-rope-length rap. I'm wondering about using only 6mm perlon for a rap. I am pretty sure it's strong enough, the question is whether there's enough friction.


Also, watch out for JONGery on those forums.

I have rapped on 6mm perlon with an ATC - 4th classing alpine stuff and then wanting to get off in a hurry with weather coming. I weigh 100 kg. It wasnt one of my favorite climbing memories but it worked fine. I kept thinking one rub over a fin of rock and I would deck. But it was all good, friction was just good enough.

I do lots of climbing in the winter and summer with a Maxim that is identical to the Ice Line. Works great.

[sfotex]

The knot is a good point... I'd say don't tie a knot.

Careful of sharp bends too thru the rap anchor, that can have the same effect as a knot.

As for max force on a rappel, think about this: Your rapping off a chockstone. You set the rap up from above the anchor, rig your rap device and tie it off. As your down climbing to get below the anchor your foot slips and you fall onto the rap anchor. Fall factor two. Not a big deal for a chair lift evac where your anchor is above you, but something to think about in the mountains. Granted, the anchor would see the full force (vs. 1/2 on each line on a double rappel), and most people would probably clip into the anchor or do a leg wrap vs. tying into the anchor.

I found some info here: http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html where they were saying it's difficult to produce loads of even 600 lbs (less then 3kn) on the anchor during rappel.

7mm cord has a breaking strength of ~11kn without much more weight, so you have a nice margin of safety so you could use knots, single rope raps, etc. if you got into trouble.

[DAFTC]

Good thoughts here, despite the obvious JONGery that I bring to the equation...I passed the link on as much for the discussion of the potential for kinking/tangling w/skinny lines as anything. A long enough run of Prusik cord to be useful for a rap has a good chance of turning into a total pain in the ass, especially if it's icy/snowy. Anyway, alpine climbers probably don't know anything about ropes.

Personally, without even thinking too hard about friction, knots and sharp edges, I wouldn't want to rap on static 6 mil unless it was an emergency. My three ~8.1 lines feel skinny enough and 30 meter glacier ropes aren't exactly break the bank expensive when you consider that you're asking it to keep you alive or un-paralyzed.

[GeezerSteve]

I've rapped my big ass on 6mm perlon. The problem is that static ropes with very little "give" are more prone to damage of various kinds, and potential failure due to damage, and higher loads when a fat man is bouncing on a rap.

Anybody using a rope in the mountains needs to learn the engineering of rope systems, i.e., fall factor theory, rope specs, anchors, force vectors viz anchors/pro, and get some experience, preferably with an old timer who's got it dicked. If a person doesn't study and wrap their brain around this stuff and learn it real time in the field, he or she shouldn't be climbing unless it's with someone who does.

Any twin in good shape will work fine for almost all basic glacier travel, rapping and fixed lining (e.g. run up a 4th class pitch sans pack, attach rope, descend back to pack, ascend fixed line with pack).

If the fall factor is low and there's enough rope paid out, a 1/2 rope will usually (and a twin will often) work fine for lots of cl 4 easy 5 alpine rock routes. e.g., IMO a single strand 1/2 or twin would work for the Beckey Route on LB if the leader places pro in the right places. Alot of good alpine climbers have led and taken leader falls on 1/2 ropes.

If a twin single strand will work, then a 1/2 will necessarily work. Duh.

ATC XP works great for skinny ropes, even 280 lbs. (me + pack) on a single strand Ice Floss rap.

A sharp ski edge can damage a rope. People have died cuz o' that.

[/rant]

[summit]

Thank you everyone for the replies. Very informative.

Re: chairlift bailout on 6mm perlon, that' honestly a lot more controlled of an environment than a crevace, cornice, or rock face. The problem I have with super thin ropes is that they are much more prone to failing from much less edge and abrasion damage, particularly if static and shockloaded. I'm not saying you can't use it, but you might want to replace the line every time!

There's some firefighter personal escape line rap devices that are good down to 7.5mm lines.

I've got the PMI rescue mini 8. It's quite useful but doubling up on anything bigger than 8.1 is too much for it.