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  1. #1
    spook Guest

    snowboarding: heelside turns

    i have a question about skipping on my heelside edge, usually on a relatively hard heelside turns.

    i have generally viewed losing my heelside edge like that as a flaw in my turn. i don't do it a lot, but with only 5 years on a board and constantly trying to improve, i've been wondering about various factors that cause it (and i have also seen a number of comments/jokes ridiculing snowboarders for the skip skip skip, so have at it).

    initially i just assumed i was turning too hard and that it's just a little harder to finesse the heelside edge because of the physical way i'm attached to the board. but it also seems that board length, binding highback angle, and binding angles at least would also affect the situation.

    i ride +30/+15 on a 166 arbor a-frame and i'm about 5'9"/185. i bought the board a little long because the craigslist board i learned on was long, i weighed a little more, and i was only going to be able to have one board and i wanted something that would provide more float for powder days.

    i've played with a couple of different binding angles, but i feel more comfortable facing more downhill than sideways. my highbacks are at the setting second most upright i believe. it seems like some gear settings would make a difference and that using a longer board in non-powder conditions might make it more likely as well.

    anybody have any suggestions, thoughts, ideas that address the issue?

  2. #2
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    It will help if you slightly shift your center of gravity towards your tail/back foot towards the end of your turn.

    If you're trying bombastic euro-carves, you should initiate the turn with more weight over your front foot, then be centered during the middle of the turn, then put more weight over the back foot towards the end of the turn.
    You'll be pushing the board through the turn and as a result be pushing your weight into the snow for some more grip.
    You can also pump the turns, where your center of gravity is low (knees bent more) going into the turn and you extend (your legs) as you go through the belly of the turn. This will help put more of your weight onto the snow resulting in better grip as well.

    Just don't exaggerate any of these movements or do them too fast. It looks weird, like you're humping the air or something.

    The good thing about this technique is when you still inevitably wash out, you'll be going much faster, and you'll spin around on your ass half way down the hill. It's super fun.
    Last edited by coolcheech; 04-26-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  3. #3
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    do you maintian your edges?

  4. #4
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post
    It will help if you slightly shift your center of gravity towards your tail/back foot towards the end of your turn.

    If you're trying bombastic euro-carves, you should initiate the turn with more weight over your front foot, then be centered during the middle of the turn, then put more weight over the back foot towards the end of the turn.
    You'll be pushing the board through the turn and as a result be pushing your weight into the snow for some more grip.
    You can also pump the turns, where your center of gravity is low (knees bent more) going into the turn and you extend (your legs) as you go through the belly of the turn. This will help put more of your weight onto the snow resulting in better grip as well.

    Just don't exaggerate any of these movements or do them too fast. It looks weird, like you're humping the air or something.

    The good thing about this technique is when you still inevitably wash out, you'll be going much faster, and you'll spin around on your ass half way down the hill. It's super fun.
    haha. thanks. so it sounds like rather than exerting too much force with my rear foot the problem may be NOT exerting enough force with the rear foot at the end of the turn?

    if that is the case, that may be why i thought i was actually doing it worse when i was trying NOT to do it, because i was taking pressure off the rear thinking i was putting too much force to hold the edge.

    all that said, wouldn't the various gear settings also affect the way my force is applied to the board and the snow?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    if that is the case, that may be why i thought i was actually doing it worse when i was trying NOT to do it, because i was taking pressure off the rear thinking i was putting too much force to hold the edge.
    If you take the pressure off the back it's going to go the front. This will make you pivot around your front when you try and turn (think basketball players pivoting). This is basically the the recipe for washing out, so don't do it ... unless you're doing switch nollie 360's under the chairlift.


    As far as your equipment goes, I don't think you need longer than 166, that's fucking big, especially for a heavy ass board like the A-Frame. I'm 5'11 190lbs, on a 163. I'm a freerider too, and I don't use any forward lean on my highbacks, it feels very awkward to me. But it should help with heel side turns, it's personal preference really. Even though I'm not spinning tricks or jibbing I ride 28deg and -15deg, with a comfy, just wider than shoulder, stance. This gives me more options and is more comfortable for my body. I used to ride super aggressive angles when I first started, but I didn't know what I was doing and just kept experimenting until it was comfortable.
    Experiment with your equipment.

    The A-Frame is obviously a freeride board (I found it to ride short, wasn't a big fan), but if you're riding sloppy bindings and soft boots, you're not going to get a stiff freeride board to respond the way you want.

    Also, I don't know where you ride, but I'm in the east and I put a 2deg bevel on my side edges and sharpen probably after every 4-5 times out. On hard pack/ice you ain't doing shit without edges.

  6. #6
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    Usually bending the knees a bit more to lower you center of gravity helps. At the end of a long day I sometimes get lazy and stand up a bit more and that is when the heelside skipping happens.
    Education must be the answer, we've tried ignorance and it doesn't work!

  7. #7
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by deliberate View Post
    do you maintian your edges?
    yeah, when i was responding to coolcheech i realized i left my edges out of the equation.

    i do try to maintain my edges. as noted, i'm relatively new to snowboarding, but i've been waxing my board and doing basic edge maintenance since the first year. i usually take the board into the shop at the beginning of the season and have them do a performance tune if it's necessary for any reason and then i do the rest for the rest of the season. i haven't had any catastrophic base or edge disasters.

    since i can only afford one board, i suspect i've been overly cautious about my edges. i don't ride park and rails or anything intentionally that would damage the base or edges. my board is 4 years old, i've ridden it probably 80 times, and it's been ground once. there are some dings and scrapes on the edges that i've tried to mellow out without taking too much off.

    i don't usually have a problem skipping unless it's pretty crusty and/or pretty steep. i don't slide sideways down the hill at all. i'm making turns the whole way. some of them are just more efficient and graceful than others.

    that's a long way of saying that i try to keep my edges pretty clean and smooth, but if i have anything that requires much work, i try to smooth it out and get it through the season and deal with it when i get the performance tune.

    on a related note, this is my first new board, and after 80 trips, this season i started to think i was noticing that it was losing some of it's stiffness. my object with being cautious with the edges was to preserve the life of my board or at least not have the edges be the limiting factor.

    i've been trying to get a sense of board life if you take care of it but ride long and hard.

    i've heard people say 2-3 seasons, 5 seasons, 1 season, 60-80 days of boarding-- i'm sure it all depends on the riding style, the type of riding, the hours spent riding, etc. i tend to actually ride 5-7 hours every time i go and since i've never worn out a board, i have no idea, so i guess i'll be able to feel it when the board is no longer performing the way i want it to.

  8. #8
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rip'nStick View Post
    Usually bending the knees a bit more to lower you center of gravity helps. At the end of a long day I sometimes get lazy and stand up a bit more and that is when the heelside skipping happens.
    i've definitely noticed i do it more when i'm tired.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip'nStick View Post
    Usually bending the knees a bit more to lower you center of gravity helps. At the end of a long day I sometimes get lazy and stand up a bit more and that is when the heelside skipping happens.
    ^^^ Yep. Putting the forward lean forward forces you to bend more, which helps. I think this might be the main problem. I think it was whenever I "skipped" on my heelside--I was tired and too straight/upright. Sharp edges obviously help too.

    Weighting/Kicking out the back foot at the end of the turn helps too, but if you do it too much you'll spin, as coolcheech mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  10. #10
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post
    If you take the pressure off the back it's going to go the front. This will make you pivot around your front when you try and turn (think basketball players pivoting). This is basically the the recipe for washing out, so don't do it ... unless you're doing switch nollie 360's under the chairlift.
    i'm unidirectional and my binding angles make it hard to do much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post
    As far as your equipment goes, I don't think you need longer than 166, that's fucking big, especially for a heavy ass board like the A-Frame. I'm 5'11 190lbs, on a 163.
    yeah, i was thinking that the board is probably longer than necessary for non-powder uses. another board manufacturer i asked suggested a 161 for their all mountain board.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post

    The A-Frame is obviously a freeride board (I found it to ride short, wasn't a big fan), but if you're riding sloppy bindings and soft boots, you're not going to get a stiff freeride board to respond the way you want.
    what do you mean by "ride short"? i have burton cartels and salomon dialogues, the latter of which were a little softer than i wanted but i had so much pain in my other boots that these were like a gift for the heavens.

    i picked the arbor because i loved the way it looked more than anything else i saw and the manufacturer said it was made to do the things i wanted to be able to do. ordinarily i would start with the goal and then worry about the looks, but in this case i got lucky. i have nothing to compare it to other than a 10 year old salomon. eventually i want to get a splitboard and start doing some backcountry stuff, but if a splitboard is not my next board, i've been looking at the prior khyber and spearhead and the jones flagship.

    i can't afford to have more than one board at this point, so i generally try to get one that will suit me best for the ideal conditions when they happen and will suffice for the rest. they may be more board than i need, but i'll die someday, so i might as well ride something i like.

    thanks for your responses.

  11. #11
    doughboyshredder Guest
    the lower your center of gravity and the more bent your knees are the less this will happen. Trying out a more modern duck stance, squaring up your hips and using the sidecut and flex more to turn the board rather than driving the sidecut can help also.

  12. #12
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    In steep terrain, rather than looking down the fall line, aim your eyes more in the direction your board is moving......

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    Weighting/Kicking out the back foot at the end of the turn helps too
    I can't say there's a "right" way to snowboard, but kicking out your back leg to turn is ... inefficient, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    i'm unidirectional and my binding angles make it hard to do much else.
    Change your angles, you might like it better. You don't have to go drastic, ride 28deg, 3deg for half a season, then 28deg 0deg for the rest. If you like it start making the back foot negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    yeah, i was thinking that the board is probably longer than necessary for non-powder uses. another board manufacturer i asked suggested a 161 for their all mountain board.
    Sounds about right. Really depends what you're definition of "normal" riding is. For your size 166 is a good pow/mountain board, if you're not riding powder all the time, something smaller might be better suited for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    what do you mean by "ride short"?
    I rode a 158 and it felt like I was riding a much shorter board, I only demo'ed it for half-a-day, so I have a very limited experience on the board. I just didn't like it. Look up "effective edge," it'll explain some of how a board/skis rides in comparison to it's overall length.

    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    i have burton cartels and salomon dialogues, the latter of which were a little softer than i wanted but i had so much pain in my other boots that these were like a gift for the heavens.
    Go stiffer, especially on the boots. If you need to twist and bend a stiff board, it's going to be that much more difficult without the leverage of stiffer boots and bindings.
    I had a lot of boot pain for years, with all different makes and models. If it's tight around the toe box, keep the laces up front super loose, and the ones by the ankles much tighter. Again, just experiment. For me I finally ended up getting half a size bigger than normal and putting my custom footbed right on top of the standard footbed that comes with the boot. It filled out the extra space and gave me the wiggle room I needed to be comfortable. Last year and this year was the 1st time in 10 years I could go all day, and stay drinking in the bar without having to stop to untie and retie my boots during the day. Hooray for me.
    (If you're like me, wide foot up front, narrow heel, high arch, try Vans, I've been very happy with the 2 pairs I've owned.)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rip'nStick View Post
    Usually bending the knees a bit more to lower you center of gravity helps. At the end of a long day I sometimes get lazy and stand up a bit more and that is when the heelside skipping happens.
    bingo. From my jongtastic boarding days on sort of old school gear, although i did end up with a Switchblade, , it was all about a good strong stance with plenty of bend in the knees. At the end of a long day, hell, i'd be so straight up i'd skip toeside turns...
    Something about the wrinkle in your forehead tells me there's a fit about to get thrown
    And I never hear a single word you say when you tell me not to have my fun
    It's the same old shit that I ain't gonna take off anyone.
    and I never had a shortage of people tryin' to warn me about the dangers I pose to myself.

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  15. #15
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    CC, I guess I wrote that wrong. I didn't mean kick it out on every turn, but if it's icy/rutted and you want to speed check, then kick it out. Whenever my board skipped on me in the past, it was usually that kind of situation. If you kicked it out all the time, you'd be wasting a ton of energy and not going anywhere. I should have made that more clear.

    spooky, if you like the Salomon fit but want something stiffer, Malamutes are the shit, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  16. #16
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    spooky, if you like the Salomon fit but want something stiffer, Malamutes are the shit, IMO.
    was just reading about these. i wish i had known about them when was buying the dialogues. can't afford another pair right now. i had a pair of burtons for 2 years that killed my feet. i thought they'd eventually break in, but it never got better. when i was talking to the guy at rei, where i bought them, he said return them for in store credit. so i did, and the most comfortable boots i could find at the store at the time were the dialogue wides.

    live and learn. thanks for the info.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    was just reading about these. i wish i had known about them when was buying the dialogues. can't afford another pair right now. i had a pair of burton's for 2 years that killed my feet. i thought they'd eventually break in, but it never got better. when i was talking to the guy at rei, where i bought them, he said return them for in store credit. so i did, and the most comfortable boots i could find at the store at the time were the dialogue wides.

    live and learn. thanks for the info.
    For sure. I like the Salomon fit (wider forefoot, narrow-ish heel... or so it seems to me). Burton fits fairly narrow. The Malamute has that kickass power strap that goes across the upper instep and then across your shin. Maybe try posting on splitboard.com to find a used pair? Although if you need the wider version, that's probably going to be significantly harder to find.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  18. #18
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post
    As far as your equipment goes, I don't think you need longer than 166, that's fucking big, especially for a heavy ass board like the A-Frame. I'm 5'11 190lbs, on a 163.
    thoughts about a board then that is not a heavy ass board like the a-frame? like i said, i have nothing to compare it to. ultimately, i'd like to get a splitboard, but it will be a while before i can afford the related necessary gear for backcountry (and avy classes, etc.).

    in the meantime, i want something stiff i can ride down mt. hood in oregon, that will be good for powder days (i'm hoping to go catskiing next season), that will virtually never go into a park and certainly never run over any kind of rail, good in the trees and steeps and be solid on non-powder days. i don't ride switch.

    and it may not have skeletons, skulls or naked women on it.

  19. #19
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    Heel lifts in your boots can help you get lower over your board. No matter how far forward you lean your highbacks, your flexibility is going to limit your ability to get low without bending at the waist and poking your ass out.

  20. #20
    doughboyshredder Guest
    I was taught the magic seat technique, way back when, 88 I think. I still use the mental imagery to this day. I try and picture that there is an actual school like chair that I am trying to sit in properly. I.E. square and straight.

    As far as board recs, I think a 66 is a decent length for you in the pow, but for general resort freeriding a 61 would definitely be better. I have been real impressed lately with Donek and Ventures freeride boards.

    This board would be sick:

    Prolly the 160 with 25cm waist. http://www.venturesnowboards.com/ind...nc=zephyr.html

    It looks like they are building some with rockered tip and tail.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by spook View Post
    thoughts about a board then that is not a heavy ass board like the a-frame? like i said, i have nothing to compare it to. ultimately, i'd like to get a splitboard, but it will be a while before i can afford the related necessary gear for backcountry (and avy classes, etc.).

    in the meantime, i want something stiff i can ride down mt. hood in oregon, that will be good for powder days (i'm hoping to go catskiing next season), that will virtually never go into a park and certainly never run over any kind of rail, good in the trees and steeps and be solid on non-powder days. i don't ride switch.

    and it may not have skeletons, skulls or naked women on it.
    Heavy isn't necessarily bad. Freeride boards tend to be heavier, mine are at least. But a 166 is long and heavy, that's all I was saying.

    You mentioned looking at a new board, if you're tight on money, maybe boots are the 1st thing you should buy instead of a board. Even if you get another freeride board it's still going to be stiffer than your average freestyle/all-mountain board and you're still going to need stiffer boots to get that response from your board.

    But, as far as boards go, I just got a Gnu Billy Goat at the end of the season, only rode it one day but I liked it. It was between that and some Never Summers which I've heard a lot of good things about.
    If you liked your A-Frame, look at the other Arbor models or another A-Frame.

    And what's wrong with skeletons and/or naked women?

  22. #22
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcheech View Post
    Heavy isn't necessarily bad. Freeride boards tend to be heavier, mine are at least. But a 166 is long and heavy, that's all I was saying.

    You mentioned looking at a new board, if you're tight on money, maybe boots are the 1st thing you should buy instead of a board. Even if you get another freeride board it's still going to be stiffer than your average freestyle/all-mountain board and you're still going to need stiffer boots to get that response from your board.

    But, as far as boards go, I just got a Gnu Billy Goat at the end of the season, only rode it one day but I liked it. It was between that and some Never Summers which I've heard a lot of good things about.
    If you liked your A-Frame, look at the other Arbor models or another A-Frame.

    And what's wrong with skeletons and/or naked women?
    thanks for the input on the board. boots first makes sense from that perspective.

    i do like my a-frame, but since i have nothing to compare it to and i want to improve my gear as i improve my skill, i'm constantly trying to get more information and am willing to consider all possibilities.

    i think the a-frame is a beautiful board but i don't know if there is something out there that may work better for me. and they changed their topsheet designs last year i think, and i don't care for the new direction. i don't even like the new a-frame as much as mine.

    as for skeletons, i love the dead, but i don't want to look at skulls and skeletons on my board. same with women. i want something that i find pleasant to look at and, since i will be on it all the time, reflects something about me (that i am willing to share! ). for those purposes, the 4 year old design of the a-frame was perfect.

  23. #23
    spook Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by doughboyshredder View Post
    I was taught the magic seat technique, way back when, 88 I think. I still use the mental imagery to this day. I try and picture that there is an actual school like chair that I am trying to sit in properly. I.E. square and straight.

    As far as board recs, I think a 66 is a decent length for you in the pow, but for general resort freeriding a 61 would definitely be better. I have been real impressed lately with Donek and Ventures freeride boards.

    This board would be sick:

    Prolly the 160 with 25cm waist. http://www.venturesnowboards.com/ind...nc=zephyr.html

    It looks like they are building some with rockered tip and tail.
    thanks for the recs. nice board.

  24. #24
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    I wouldn't worry about the board being too long or heavy, I rode A-Frames/S-Series 172s for years as my everyday board and never had a problem, though I did snap one and continually bashed the tail in tight trees. The A-Frame is pretty stiff though, If I'm just playing around and want a easy board to ride I'll grab my 162 Crossbow, it's a little softer than the A-Frame with the same shape but it rides much easier. A-Frames seemed to last me about 100 days before they wore out,They were still fun to ride but the tail got soft, when I'd switch to a new one it was like night and day.
    Make sure your edges are sharp, you'll never carve a turn with dull or detuuned edges. Don't be afraid to move your bindings around and try something new, I've moved mine around alot but I notice my 8 or 9 year old splitboard has the same angles I like today.
    It wouldn't hurt to have a shorter board in your quiver, my favorite board again this year (when I'm not on a swallowtail) was my 172 from Smokin' Jay but my 162 Arbors (A-Frame and Crossbow) get lots of use in the afternoon.
    btw there are lots of good boards without skeletons or dragons on them, all of my boards have nothing on the base or topsheet, I've noticed the better boards have no graffics.

  25. #25
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    At what point in the turn does this happen? Is it only on really steep pitches?
    Does this happen on other boards? If your edges are in top shape, it's tough to understand. Usually I find that just intuituvely finding out what works helps solve things like this.

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