Thread: Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

Originally Posted by Professor

So when and if we hear a real response to how things happened, then I will make an informed decision.

You are Salomon's wet dream, and a fucking idiot in the purest sense of the word. You want to wait for THEM to interpret the facts for you? Jesus christ, man... What the fuck?!?? They already have!!! You may have read that they told us that they were 13 pairs of proto boots when in fact they were 230+ pairs of full production boots. They've already bullshitted you on several occasions here. READ: You aren't going to get a clear cut explanation. EVER. You'll get a carefully-written essay concocted by the legal department that's careful not to admit they fucked something up. This I promise you. So go fkn buy Salomon, sounds like they're right up your alley. It's fucktards with attitudes like yours that keep big companies like Sally employing armies of lawyers to jerk us off with rather than tell us anything informative or with actual redeeming value in serious cases like this, so thanks for that.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

a lack of testing etc.

Marshall, your .02 carries great weight with me, but really???

Can I just ask WHY OTHERWISE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE ARE STILL INFERRING THEY DIDN'T TEST THEM?!?!?!???

The facts are right there. Johnathan S. has the link and has posted it several times before. They broke in the same manner during testing- while stomping out a fkn skintrack for chrissake. They went on the break the same way for TC. I CHALLENGE EVERYONE TO CHALLENGE THEIR READING COMPREHENSION. Marshall, sorry and not trying to harsh on you specifically but for fuck's sake, I'm getting really sick of reminding people of the same. fucking. shit.

If the facts at hand aren't enough to convince you, cool. You used to work there and probably have a ton of friends/know good people there so I'll take your reservations with a grain of salt and not fault you for it, I get that. Please don't add to the confusion as to whether or not they've even been tested though, because they did and they failed miserably. Think even a little farther though. Lou Dawson's teardown indicated that the boots were shit even without the toe piece failure. He said he literally peeled back the vibram sole with his bare hands and that it wouldn't have lasted an hour on rocks. This boot was a huge piece of shit on many levels. If you can't see that they just wanted to have a flagship ubergnar boot with every feature possible and were willing to -and did- cut any corner necessary to have it, you're not looking, or you just don't want to see it. It's kind of like learning your ex girlfriend is a crackwhore now. You don't want to believe it- "no, it can't be! She was so sweet when we were together!"- but it's true. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by DoWork

What the fuck?!?? They already have!!! You may have read that they told us that they were 13 pairs of proto boots when in fact they were 230+ pairs of full production boots. They've already bullshitted you on several occasions here. READ: You aren't going to get a clear cut explanation. EVER. You'll get a carefully-written essay concocted by the legal department that's careful not to admit they fucked something up. This I promise you. So go fkn buy Salomon, sounds like they're right up your alley. It's fucktards with attitudes like yours that keep big companies like Sally employing armies of lawyers to jerk us off with rather than tell us anything informative or with actual redeeming value in serious cases like this, so thanks for that.

So you're now on to berating people's reading comprehension skillz......How about focusing on your own???

CPSC release itself says +/- 83 boots.

You keep yelling louder and are flabbergasted that people don't see thing through exactly the same lens as you. Guess what, not all of us were close personal friends w/ TC before this and have every right to be more objective and less clouded by emotion than you.

As somebody who has been following this from day one, the only absolute here is that Salomon released an unsafe product and TC paid a extraordinary price for it. Nobody is debating that point. I understand and respect, that for many, if not most in this thread, this is all that matters.

What bothers me is your eagerness to spin everything about this event into the most damming light possible. Basically, your assertions to the latecomers in this thread are that Sally deliberately cut corners and ignored explicit testing failures in seek of the almighty $$. Please back this claim up with something besides second and third hard recollections of old posts and stories from friends of friends. For some of us, how much Salomon knew and when they knew it, will determine the magnitude of our individual disdain. I for one agree with Marsh and Professor that we don't have all the facts regarding this. Sadly, I also doubt we ever will.

Why isnt it surprising the amount of "fuck you"s and other name calling? I never thought my opinion would be popular, but it is obvious that some of you are beyond even being able to talk about the issue with any semblance of decency. I never expected to change other people's minds, but I did think there would be a touch of common decency around here. Guess after all this time, this place has just become another place on the internet. Some of us will continue to remember the good old days of real discussion and when "fuck yous" were reserved for joking around, not just because someone didnt agree with you. Oh well, carry on with your lynch mob mentality.

Again, TC I wish you the best of luck and will continue to monitor how this ultimately turns out.

(Edit since ^^^ post just popped up. At least I know there are still some people that are willing to say what may not be popular around here. Kudos!)

Originally Posted by Professor

Oh well, carry on with your lynch mob mentality.

The TGR lynch mob is [ame="http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199458"]alive and well and ugly as ever[/ame]

Originally Posted by Professor

Why isnt it surprising the amount of "fuck you"s and other name calling? I never thought my opinion would be popular, but it is obvious that some of you are beyond even being able to talk about the issue with any semblance of decency. I never expected to change other people's minds, but I did think there would be a touch of common decency around here. Guess after all this time, this place has just become another place on the internet. Some of us will continue to remember the good old days of real discussion and when "fuck yous" were reserved for joking around, not just because someone didnt agree with you. Oh well, carry on with your lynch mob mentality.

The biggest mob mentality is that the old days were grand, everyone was nice and friendly, all discussions were cordial, no cliques, and no one ever hated anyone

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

The biggest mob mentality is that the old days were grand, everyone was nice and friendly, all discussions were cordial, no cliques, and no one ever hated anyone

Sorry, but if you HATE someone for stating their own opinion, you have a problem.

First off, let me just say that I'm not as close with TC as DoWork is, but as emotional and vocal as DoWork is, I think he is justified in his words/actions. A very close friend of his was harmed by a company and he seems to be doing everything in his power to make others aware of this, and try to get them on board the don't buy Amer/Salomon bandwagon, so that they will see we (the ski community) have a voice, and that everything they've done in response to the situation was done the wrong way. We are a community, from the athletes to the shops, to the manufacturers. We are a community that needs to stick together and work together. And when a manufacturer (Salomon) does something that questions our faith in their products, and more interested in other things then the welfare of their customers, something needs to be said and something needs to be done. So kudos to do DoWork for being as persistent and vocal as he is.

Originally Posted by SeatownSlackey

As somebody who has been following this from day one, the only absolute here is that Salomon released an unsafe product and TC paid a extraordinary price for it. Nobody is debating that point. I understand and respect, that for many, if not most in this thread, this is all that matters.

Really? It seems like Professor disputes this issue, and that's why DoWork, myself, and others have gotten pretty fired up by his comments in this thread. It appears that he disputes this point and is waiting for all the facts to come forth before he considers that Salomon blew it.

Originally Posted by SeatownSlackey

Basically, your assertions to the latecomers in this thread are that Sally deliberately cut corners and ignored explicit testing failures in seek of the almighty $$. For some of us, how much Salomon knew and when they knew it, will determine the magnitude of our individual disdain. I for one agree with Marsh and Professor that we don't have all the facts regarding this. Sadly, I also doubt we ever will.

When you think about, I find it hard to believe that these are the only possible scenarios that could've taken place:

1) Salomon didn't properly test the product, and decided to release it anyway
2) Salomon tested the product and ignored the results, and released the product anyway...similar to the whole recall scenario tyler durden talks about on the plane in Fight Club, that there's a formula, they plug the numbers in, and depending on what they get, they decide whether or not to release it.

I can't really think of any other scenarios on how this product made it to the market. Either way, both are pretty damning, and made me lose any confidence in their products.

^^^^^

Two more scenarios

3) Salomon tested the product, but changed the design before releasing it, assuming incorrectly that the changes would not be significant.

4) Salomon tested the product, but the tests were deeply flawed.

I don't think it matters why this turd of a product was released. None of these scenarios is excusable to me. Lou Dawson's (wildsnow.com) test shows that this product wasn't even close to being acceptable. It wasn't a case of a design flaw that only showed up after heavy use. Those toe pieces were guaranteed to fail. If anyone has posted here without reading Lou's post, please do.

Professor (and anyone who agrees with him) could you please share a scenario which could restore your faith in this company? I'd like to hear what you think might have happened.

If I'm way out of line here, so be it. Call'em as I see'em. Take a look at other sports where failure=extreme hurt. Thinking Paragliding, Ultralight planes, Motocross, Base jumping. Seems that in those types of sport, the final inspection and judgement of safety is up to the user. A skier on your average, out the door ski shop blue slope ski package should expect Chevy Malibu user friendliness and safety. Want to push the technological envelope? It behooves us to check all the systems and ask "what if". Every old pilot does a "walk around". Salomon is on the hook in this case but it's up to YOU to make a final evaluation of the worthiness of your equipment for the task you ask of it.

Originally Posted by Professor

Sorry, but if you HATE someone for stating their own opinion, you have a problem.

For someone who's unwilling to make the most minor of assumptions regarding Salomon or anything else regarding this incident, you sure are willing to make gigantic leaps regarding everything else. Perhaps it's TSB? We're just trying to help.

Not sure wtf Wooley12's point is - for the model it sounds like their were no obvious externally visible defects

^^^^ So, what exactly would you have proposed for the "walk-around" here? Take your brandy new boots and do a bench test a la Lou's test? Would YOU have done that? I mean, mount, check boot fit and release, fine, but this was a tech system.

Call 'em as we see 'em? Okay. Arm chair quarterbacking. That's what I see.

Originally Posted by Finstah

It would seem that his boot failing was one component of a very bad ski crash.

They made a mistake of distributing too many of the Quest boots to the market too quickly.

If there really was a lynch mob, I would hope they could find their way to your house with pitchforks and torches. The rushed to market bullshit tech fitting boot failing was the cause of the fall! I don't understand the group of people on here that seem to be forgetting that.

Originally Posted by Finstah

Having the sole of your boot rip out doesn't necessarily equal an injury as severe as TC's. It would seem that his boot failing was one component of a very bad ski crash. That however, doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the boot that needs to be addressed (which is exactly why Salomon is not offering the low tech option this season.)
.

You are an IDIOT, who in your 26 posts here, seemingly have not taken the time to read anything in this thread, about what happened to TC, or anywhere else for that matter.

First, he didn't rip the sole out of the boot. The tech fitting warped and deformed, and split the rubber soul from the plastic toe piece

Second, his boot failing wasn't one component of a very bad ski crash, it was the CAUSE!

Your stupidity astounds me. Do some reading before you flap your gums, you dumb JONG!

Salomon should stick to what they are good at rather than rushing clearly flawed and over-hyped products to market trying to cash in on a party that they arrived at late after ignoring it for so long.

It is as though "The Backcountry" didn't exist until Salomon launched "The Quest". It almost sounds holy. Us floundering earn-your-turns fools all this time, lost without their touring boot.

There are better companies out their with a longer commitment to making better touring products in return for some of the money we earn. Companies where the managers, designers and testers are backcountry touring people who actually used and understood the product that they were trying to profit from.

Anyone else notice that Garmont is also making its own tech-compatible inserts starting this season?

Originally Posted by Finstah

How many times have you read here about someone pulling a binding out of a ski, or pre-releasing, or breaking an FKS heel?

It is very different. When mounted properly alpine bindings break or rip out under high stress (e.g. backseat landings or when a ski tip hits something solid at speed- both things one carefully avoids on a 35-40 slope above rocks, water ice, crevasses and trees). Thin Cover's Quest toe pieces deformed during a low-to-medium speed turn on corn. You seem to be saying that because skiing is dangerous sport, it is ok that Salomon released a dangerous product.

Originally Posted by Hugh Conway

Not sure wtf Wooley12's point is - for the model it sounds like their were no obvious externally visible defects

Guess what my point is, is that just because I can buy something from a manufacturer, I should not infer it is completely safe for me to use under any and all conditions. Set your Dynafits to 10 because that's what I always do with my Solly's is asking for heartache. (If you don't get then let me explain. Dynafit markings are a gauge of relative release value, not the DIN bible. Actual release dynamics varies on the set up.) Maybe I'm wrong and we should expect all manufactured goods to be up to the task without question. I don't. Been screwed over too many times.

Originally Posted by weasel1

^^^^ So, what exactly would you have proposed for the "walk-around" here? ........ Arm chair quarterbacking. That's what I see.

Guilty as charged. Also called Post Crash Evaluation. I'll admit I ski like a pussy and ballet slippers would work for what I do. But when I was racing 650cc Triumphs, damned if I would take their word that the rear axle was OK for 50' jumps.

Fact: Salomon released a flawed product into the market. Some may say the lack of QC/QA in place for this product could be described as negligent (I would).

Fact: It caused a crash to someone who purchased the said flawed product, and that crash led to serious injury, loss of income, and a shitbucket full of pain to an innocent user of said flawed product.

Fact: Salomon/Amer has not claimed responsibility for this injury, flawed product, or the shitbucket full of pain inflicted upon an innocent user of flawed product.

Fact: (sad fact) is that the legal system in the states (and in some respects canada too) will cause this to be a protracted to and fro of emails and letters between legaltypes that do this crap for a living.

Fact: I sometimes live in a utopian dreamworld where I thought that maybe, just maybe salomon would have the balls to man up and take responsibility for their flawed product. Sadly when I woke up, the world had not changed and big business will do what big business will do - hide behind lawyers.

Fact: To express my displeasure with salomon not manning up I will boycott
all of their (and Amer's) product line, this will include gear for my kid, my fiance and any of my friends who mention that they are either thinking of buying new gear or want some advice in buying new gear.

Lynch mob, methinks not. Just some guys who think a fellow ski fanatic got fucked over by a shitty product, issued by a company that should've known better. Some guys who want to make a statement that what was done here is not acceptable, and the only real weapon we have is our wallets.

Originally Posted by Professor

Why isnt it surprising the amount of "fuck you"s and other name calling? I never thought my opinion would be popular, but it is obvious that some of you are beyond even being able to talk about the issue with any semblance of decency. I never expected to change other people's minds, but I did think there would be a touch of common decency around here. Guess after all this time, this place has just become another place on the internet. Some of us will continue to remember the good old days of real discussion and when "fuck yous" were reserved for joking around, not just because someone didnt agree with you. Oh well, carry on with your lynch mob mentality.

You really must sit down when you pee.


Slackey, Marshal, etc... Sorry I'm letting this shit get to me I'm just getting worn out from reminding people of the same shit over and over again and yeah I messed that number up, my bad. Regardless, I will be putting together a master post with all the needed references, quotes and links to things that need to be read so that people don't have to write it all, they can just link it or copy and paste into other threads, etc. All this info is just too spread out for people to get it all easily and make an informed decision. Sorry for my vitriol (except for professor, I can't stand this trolling pussbag) I just don't get how people can be so complacent when something so outrageous happens... It is the one thing that's gotten me truly angry since I've started posting here and yeah, I can vacillate from polite and well spoken to angry and insulting because it is a pretty emotional deal for me and I have a tendency to speak my mind. So time to change gears because this isn't working and it's taxing as shit on me. Less talking, more doing. Peeps want information delivered without emotion? Coming right up.

What bothers me is your eagerness to spin everything about this event into the most damming light possible. Basically, your assertions to the latecomers in this thread are that Sally deliberately cut corners and ignored explicit testing failures in seek of the almighty $$. Please back this claim up with something besides second and third hard recollections of old posts and stories from friends of friends. For some of us, how much Salomon knew and when they knew it, will determine the magnitude of our individual disdain. I for one agree with Marsh and Professor that we don't have all the facts regarding this. Sadly, I also doubt we ever will.

Well this dig I actually have a problem with, though. The part in bold, to me at least, is plain as day. You don't see it? Cool, man- I'll do my best to scrape every pertinent detail together so people can have everything right there, plain as day and we can avoid this in the future. For once I feel like the goddam lynch mob is actually warranted for and people are ho-humming around the issues for the risk of being un-pc. I think the light Salomon created for themselves is pretty damming here- the light I'm shining is just pointing out how fucked up the whole thing really is. I just see right through their bullshit and get pissed when others fall for the lawyer HJ routine.

Originally Posted by wooley12

Guess what my point is, is that just because I can buy something from a manufacturer, I should not infer it is completely safe for me to use under any and all conditions.

No, you should not infer that any product would be safe to use under any and all conditions.

However, I do expect it to be safe to be used for the conditions it was designed for:

Salomon says:

"When it comes to free ski innovation, Salomon knows no boundaries and with the Quest Pro, they’ve opened up the whole mountain for your sheer pleasure. Free skiing is all about exploration, an endless search for the best lines and best unused track. The Quest Pro gives you the freedom to explore every part of the mountain and offers downhill skiing performance never previously possible with this type of boot. Developed in conjunction with Salomon athletes and mountain guides, this boot has been tested to perfection. The Quest Pro, is one of the lightest freeride boot available. Nigel Shepherd, International Mountain Guide has been testing these boots for the last couple of seasons.
“I have all day comfort everyday of the season, my feet stay warm during the coldest part of the season, I have a boot that I can hike in comfortably for a week at a time without a problem but more importantly, when it comes to skiing down hill, I can rely on the boot for high performance and precision in what ever snow conditions the mountain throws at me - crust, powder, porridge and spring, this Is the boot for skiing the whole mountain.” This is the future of free skiing - go find what you were looking for..."


TC's use of the quest boot is clearly within the design parameters of this product.

Originally Posted by wooley12

Guilty as charged. Also called Post Crash Evaluation. I'll admit I ski like a pussy and ballet slippers would work for what I do. But when I was racing 650cc Triumphs, damned if I would take their word that the rear axle was OK for 50' jumps.

whether you ski like a pussy or stick every 100' cliff you huck isn't the point.

i'd like to hear how many pairs of boots/bindings/skis you have dissected so that you can examine their internal structure and determine whether or not the engineering involved with the design is up to the task.

no shame if the answer is zero (i've never done it either).
but don't you think that you're taking the caveat emptor thing a little too far?

unless you're designing and building all of your own equipment, at some point you are going to have to invest a little trust and hope that the product will perform as advertised.

you drive over bridges and what not, no? w/o doing a walk around right? that's because you trust those stuctures to perform as they are supposed to and not collapse under your car as you cross.

bottom line is that Salomon's product did not perform as billed, and as a direct result, TC got seriously injured (life-changing kind of injury).

where did the fuck-up occur? lord knows, but it was a fuck-up, and it was Salomon's fuck-up.

Originally Posted by Finstah

So the rubber sole (not soul) split from the plastic toe piece and the ski remained partially attached to his foot? That would indeed suck.

No, basically the tech fitting was engineered to be on the VERY bottom of the hard plastic, not IN it- so when he made the turn the tech fittings essentially turned into frown faces, releasing the boots from the bindings and sending skis + TC 1000+ feet down Mount Washington in front of several other mags.

Originally Posted by DoWork

I will be putting together a master post with all the needed references, quotes and links to things that need to be read so that people don't have to write it all, they can just link it or copy and paste into other threads

Do it - I will help if needed.

Originally Posted by njfreeskier

Originally Posted by SeatownSlackey

As somebody who has been following this from day one, the only absolute here is that Salomon released an unsafe product and TC paid a extraordinary price for it. Nobody is debating that point.

Really? It seems like Professor disputes this issue, and that's why DoWork, myself, and others have gotten pretty fired up by his comments in this thread. It appears that he disputes this point and is waiting for all the facts to come forth before he considers that Salomon blew it.

as far as i understand it, and that may not be far, no one disputes that. the dispute is simply about if it makes a difference if the testing was flawed, no testing was done, testing results were ignored etc.... and if it makes a difference, which one, and in which way salomon could make things right or the closest to right.
all of this doesnt change the fact that the product was flawed...

freak~[&]

If anyone missed it, here is the marketing post their rep posted here in TGR at the start if the thread that convinced TC to get the Quest boots.

Originally Posted by skierrick

Quest Info for those who want to know.
FUll disclosure - This is Rick Armstrong and I ride for Salomon. I am biased for good reason. Salomon is the real deal with one intention of making the best gear possible based on what real skiers want. My job with them is to test gear and innovate new ideas and connect with the ski community to find out what we need to provide to the hardcore skiers out there - I love my job!!!!

I have been testing and working on the Quest boot for the last year. I think I have more days on these than anybody. I was forwarded to this thread by my bro Cody Townsend (serious ripper and passionate skier) .

Here is the skinny on the Quest Boots.
1) Why so many boots and what are the differences.
The reason there are 6 versions of the boot is simple. Salomon has listened to us and has committed to making this boot series as complete as possible to
fit as many peoples needs as possible. This is not just a marketing product this is a "Quest" for the best AT capable alpine boots - period.
The 6 boots are below: (weight is based on a 26.5)
Here are the real specs:
Name - Color - Sizes Avail. - Flex - Last - Strap - Weight
Quest Pro Pebax - Grey/Black - 24.5-29.5 -110 - 101 - 45 - 1.75kg/3.86lbs
Quest Pro Brown/Black - 24.5-29.5 -110 - 101 - 45 - 1.9kg/4.19lbs
Quest 12 Orange/Black - 24 -29.5 -120 - 101 - 55 - 2.1kg/4.62lbs
Quest 10 Transluc. Grey/Black - 24 -29.5 -110 - 101 - 55 - 1.95kg/4.30lbs
Quest 8 Transluc. Silver /Black - 24 -29.5 - 90 - 101 - 45 - 1.75kg/3.86lbs
Quest Women Grey/Black - 24 -27.5 -110 - 101 - 45 - 1.75kg/3.86 lbs

All of the boots have a revolutionary v shaped lower cuff design that allows the walk mode while still keeping the rigidity and integrity of the boot intact while in ski mode. All boots also have specialized buckles that have been made as lightweight as possible while retaining strength.

Quest Pro Pebax : Intent - AT (Earn your turns) - Light Weight (and still ski like a real boot)
Comes with the Dynafit compatable touring pads (not the din pads), Comes with the Ultralight thermoformable liners (ALL of the others come with My Custom Fit Performance/BioVent Liners) Uses the Pebax (lightweight plastic) on the lower shell and Polylight cuff (Biggest difference between this and the Quest Pro)

Quest Pro - Intent - AT - Medium Weight - Comes with Touring Pads

Quest 12 - Intent - High Performance Alpine Boot with full AT capabilities.
This is the boot I have been wanting for 20 years. This is also the boot I am skiing everyday ( I have put more than 70 days on a pair of these) I can hit airs with these, ski big lines, race gates if I want. Tour the back-country and use Dynafits if you want. I spent three weeks in South America this last August and September skiing with Callum Pettit, Zach Giffen, and Kye Petersen (Sick rippers) and was able to ski these everywhere we went, also hit all the same lines and airs. Hit a couple of 30 to 40 Footers with no problems.
This boot comes with the Alpine (DIN) Toe and heel. You will have to buy the touring pads (which is what I am using every day) The cost is supposed to be $50 bucks! at retail. - Cheap for a refresher set when needed.
My take on AT boots is I prefer a boot that skis at a high performance level and tours well. I would rather sacrifice a little weight for better performance on the down than have a lightweight flimsy skiing boot.

Quest 10 Almost identicle to the Quest 12 with a softer flex of 110 vs 120. And a little lighter weight.

Quest 8 Softer and light5er yet with a 90 Flex.

Quest Women - Softer (80) and Sexy (Has faux fur on the liner)


Bottom line - Super Sick High Performance Alpine Boots with full AT capabilities. Very torsionally stiff and a variety of flex's .
Made by Salomon who knows how to make high quality (read durable) ,comfortable boots, that perform like they should.
In my opinion these are the best boots for what I do that have ever been made.
By the way - stay tuned we have more surprises to come.
Peace - Rick

In case you missed it, here is the important part:

Originally Posted by skierrick

This is the boot I have been wanting for 20 years. This is also the boot I am skiing everyday ( I have put more than 70 days on a pair of these) I can hit airs with these, ski big lines, race gates if I want. Tour the back-country and use Dynafits if you want. I spent three weeks in South America this last August and September skiing with Callum Pettit, Zach Giffen, and Kye Petersen (Sick rippers) and was able to ski these everywhere we went, also hit all the same lines and airs. Hit a couple of 30 to 40 Footers with no problems.
This boot comes with the Alpine (DIN) Toe and heel. You will have to buy the touring pads (which is what I am using every day)