Thread: Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

wardog - don't get me wrong; the Quest boots appear to be utter shit, and most products (even crappy ones) aren't that bad. Salomon fucked up royally on that one. I'm just saying that they're not the first, and certainly not the last company to fuck up badly. If you can predict which company will be the next one to produce a horrible product, then I'm all ears. In the meantime, I'll continue to tentatively use whatever product looks the best to me.

Phiber - 333 was just a recent example that seems obvious. As I understand it, PM gear had plenty of production problems early on as well. Obviously they make great skis now, and luckily none of the issues they had resulted in major injury (at least as far as I know). That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. The points I made are still completely valid. You act like a small company has never made a bad product. Lots of horrible ideas have come out of small companies, and most of those companies are no longer in existence because they got sued into oblivion.

You say that "you still have to prove that your product is solid," but we're talking about early production runs, just like the quest boot that destroyed TC's leg. I'm not talking about tried and true products that have been on the market for years. For new products, I would say that a small company is far less likely to get their product right on the first try, mostly because of the points about testing and engineering I made above.

Originally Posted by Salomon Freeski

Salomon sincerely regrets the injury experienced by Mr. Dalton Harben as described in numerous web postings. We are taking the matter seriously and Salomon US has already committed to, and announced plans to, remove the limited number of Quest Pro boots with metal fittings from the market (as well as touring pad accessory fittings for other Quest boots). Mr. Harben’s attorney has contacted Salomon US, and therefore it is customary for all further communications regarding his injury to go through the appropriate legal channels. For all other skiers with Quest Pro boots or Quest touring pads, we repeat our request that such products be returned to Salomon US. A full copy of that request can be found as posted last Friday at http://www.wildsnow.com/2899/salomon...-announcement/ and Saloman Quest Tech inserts failure thread - Teton Gravity Research Forums

I sure hope you had/have permission to use his full name in this post....

Originally Posted by toast2266

Phiber - 333 was just a recent example that seems obvious. As I understand it, PM gear had plenty of production problems early on as well. Obviously they make great skis now, and luckily none of the issues they had resulted in major injury (at least as far as I know). That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. The points I made are still completely valid.

How can you possibly compare PMGear durability (results in slow failures like delam or cracked sidewall) to what happened with this Solomon boot.

YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY COMPARE PMGEAR'S QC ISSUE TO SOLOMON'S GROSS NEGLIGENCE IN THIS CASE.

If PMGear decided to use elmers glue and cotton guaze to wrap a styrafoam core and then sold the ski as the burlyest huckingest ski on the market, then acted surprised when bindings pulled out and skis snapped in half without warning causing people to fall down a couloir, then you could compare them to Solomon.

Wow.. I actually defended PMGear...

Originally Posted by Summit

How can you possibly compare PMGear durability (results in slow failures like delam or cracked sidewall) to what happened with this Solomon boot.

You're missing my point. I wasn't directly comparing PMgear's failures to the Quest failure. I was pointing out that Phiber's earlier statement that small companies were somehow more trustworthy is dumb, and that TC would likely be in a worse position if it was a small company's product that had failed. All I am saying is that the type of problem experienced by TC is hardly unique to Salomon and/or large companies. That's it. Don't read into it more than that.

By all accounts, PM gear makes awesome skis, and I'm not suggesting they don't. While I could name various other small companies, some of which are maggot owned, that have had more serious issues than minor delams and cracked edges, I have no interest in publicly shitting on small companies that I think are generally doing a good job.

Originally Posted by Summit

Wow.. I actually defended PMGear...

a hooker w/ an eightball will be at your doorstep tom.
I believe solifreeskiers last post to be sincere and believe TC will be taken care and I have faith in the good maggot Karma that TC holds will help heal him
Somebody ought to set up a paypal slush fund for him.
i aint gots much but $4.20 or even a buck or two from every mag would help tide him over as I'd imagine a few extra $$$ will make his road to recovery easier, reguardless of the compensation/ legal issues

^that slush fund thing is a wicked good idea. how do we work this?

put someone responsible in charge
been done a few times before for plakespere smoesmith etc.

^^^^^ hey guys thanks for the thought, and not like I am all cashed up, but your help through words has been enough, no need for any cash fund. But wow a generous offering for sure and more of a testament of why TGR is a true collective.

Originally Posted by toast2266

PM gear had plenty of production problems early on as well. Obviously they make great skis now, and luckily none of the issues they had resulted in major injury (at least as far as I know). That doesn't mean that it couldn't happen...For new products, I would say that a small company is far less likely to get their product right on the first try, mostly because of the points about testing and engineering I made above.

I'm probably the least likely member of TGR to defend PM skis. But you're making a bad analogy. First, Salomon is a large mature company with resources to test and toss flawed betas rather than sell them to the public. PM and other indies, by contrast, often need to sell blems, but as the name says, these have cosmetic, not design flaws, and they are labeled as such. They are not betas. I'd guess, in fact, indies are less likely to release weak early designs because they depend on a comparatively small number of users to generate buzz. Recall how ON3P posted a whole year of early learning curve photos, including mistakes? Indies live off transparency.

Second, PM's "production problems" far as I know, have chiefly involved QC issues with finishing bases, some minor delams. These may be irritating, or not, but they aren't fundamental design flaws, and they don't threaten lives in no-fall zones.

Third, small indies like PM or Moment or Prior make skis, not boots. Note that they use traditional, well-understood construction like sandwiches. More to the point, because skis share a lineage that predates engineers (gasp), they reveal themselves to expert human testing. Far as I can tell, one of PM's strengths is its testing program. Which is why flat bases or not, its skis perform well. And pretty quickly, indie QC issues clear up. Or the indie fails. Big companies have the luxury of absorbing their mistakes. Or ignoring them when they can. Talking to you, Volkl.

Last, indies in general survive through hands-on followup. Whatever his online persona, no one could ever accuse Splat of not caring about how his product performs, and he seems quick to offer fixes that no major would even think about. No, if an indie's product maimed someone, not much $ there to sue for. But does capitalization for lawsuits make a large company's malfeasance somehow more desirable?

More generally, I think those here who are throwing out the "it could happen to anyone" are just making the wrong argument. No, this kind of careless design, testing, and/or release does not happen with most well-run companies, large or small. I have several family who have owned businesses, one decent sized, so I'm not talking out of my rear.

Either Salomon went with a bad design, not bothering to test it properly, and released it with no beta signifiers, or they let it out as an early 2011 release fully knowing it was flawed, assumed the fix was too much of a pain. Either explanation is a problem of corporate culture and manufacturing control.

By contrast, indies may not have a fleet of engineers, but IME they have chosen their product intelligently, they have strong cultures in terms of learning curves and reaction times, and they innovate; the Quest is a half assed copy of existing toepieces and soles slapped onto an Impact that can walk. And apparently they worried a lot about the walk mode. So how tough would it have been to get the rest right?

Now to the IMPORTANT stuff: Looks like TC is gonna get taken care of. As this all becomes less newsworthy, assume those of you who know him will be monitoring the whole thing, keep us informed, yes?

How Salomon handles this piece will determine what I do in the future about ALL of Amer's products, holding company or not. (Yes I'm implying that I can survive life-as-we-know-it without my various Arcteryx's or the others too. ) Hear that, suits?

Originally Posted by Beyond

I'm probably the least likely member of TGR to defend PM skis. But you're making a bad analogy. First, Salomon is a large mature company with resources to test and toss flawed betas rather than sell them to the public. PM and other indies, by contrast, often need to sell blems, but as the name says, these have cosmetic, not design flaws, and they are labeled as such. They are not betas. I'd guess, in fact, indies are less likely to release weak early designs because they depend on a comparatively small number of users to generate buzz. Recall how ON3P posted a whole year of early learning curve photos, including mistakes? Indies live off transparency.

I don't disagree with you, but clearly there are small companies out there who are willing to put crap products on the market (i.e. my first example - 333). Its not always clear to the average consumer which products are great and which ones aren't.

I don't buy your argument that skis have been made with well understood techniques and are therefore distinguishable from boots. Ripping a binding out is essentially the same as what happened to TC, and its not at all uncommon in modern skis manufactured by small or large companies.

I also agree with your point that these sort of things happen less at well run companies. There are plenty of companies, both large and small, that are run poorly. Most people don't do a thorough analysis of the companies they buy from prior to using the products though. I'd hope that, over time, the well run companies have a higher survival rate, but that isn't always the case.

How Salomon handles this piece will determine what I do in the future about ALL of Amer's products, holding company or not. (Yes I'm implying that I can survive life-as-we-know-it without my various Arcteryx's or the others too. ) Hear that, suits?

Agree wholeheartedly.

I feel like I've done enough cunting of this thread, and its drifting into a territory that's not especially helpful for TC (or anyone else for that matter), so I'm out.

I was out yesterday doing what I do most other days: touring with Dynafit bindings (TR here http://www.steepdeepjapan.com/tripre...myoko-ski-tour). It was a very long tour with plenty of big long steep faces of spring snow – icy at the top, perfect corn 10 turns into it and for the remaining 2000 feet down falline. We had three lines like that in the traverse. I loved life more than normal yesterday.

Watching my friend ski a line I thought about how Thin Cover got so badly injured, and it gave me the shivers. I looked down at my Garmont boots in Dynafit bindings and realized that the boot-binding-ski interface is something of an unspoken but unbreakable contract of pure trust, which is why backcountry skiers value time-testd reliability. So much depends on so little, again I shivered at the thought of my BOOT failing a few turns into this icy slope, suddenly leaving me on my slippery gortex ass rather than sharp steel ski edges. That is a trust that should NEVER be breached. Salomon have gone there. No more trust – that’s what I thought of Salomon and their Quest boot as I stood on a mountain in the backcountry watching my friend ski, about to ski it myself.

I was touring with the owner of our local backcountry shop and of course he has now been well informed of the failure. His eyes opened pretty wide.

Originally Posted by Summit

SOLOMON'S GROSS NEGLIGENCE IN THIS CASE.

I know that you think that typing in all caps makes your post more true , but it is silly to throw around terms like "gross negligence" at this point in time. That has a very specific meaning, and there is virtually no way that you or anyone else in this thread knows if Salomon has committed it. We can certainly say that the part in question looks defective. But defective parts does not equal gross negligence.

In fact, product liability cases are measured on a strict liability standard because demonstrating simple negligence, let alone gross negligence, on the part of the manufacturer is so difficult.

Originally Posted by Danno

blah blah blah

Well that's why I'm an opinionated asshole and you are a law talking guy.

Originally Posted by Bean

Seems that Amer has a problem with putting out terribly designed products that fail catastrophically and result in injuries.

that wheel "failure" was determined to be caused by a specialized fork breaking, and causing the wheel to break. well beyond the scope of mavic's design, and any similar wheel would also fail in this scenario.

of course nobody cares that the specialized fork was the item at fault.

Originally Posted by Hohes

I was out yesterday doing what I do most other days: touring with Dynafit bindings (TR here http://www.steepdeepjapan.com/tripre...myoko-ski-tour). It was a very long tour with plenty of big long steep faces of spring snow – icy at the top, perfect corn 10 turns into it and for the remaining 2000 feet down falline. We had three lines like that in the traverse. I loved life more than normal yesterday.

Watching my friend ski a line I thought about how Thin Cover got so badly injured, and it gave me the shivers. I looked down at my Garmont boots in Dynafit bindings and realized that the boot-binding-ski interface is something of an unspoken but unbreakable contract of pure trust, which is why backcountry skiers value time-testd reliability. So much depends on so little, again I shivered at the thought of my BOOT failing a few turns into this icy slope, suddenly leaving me on my slippery gortex ass rather than sharp steel ski edges. That is a trust that should NEVER be breached. Salomon have gone there. No more trust – that’s what I thought of Salomon and their Quest boot as I stood on a mountain in the backcountry watching my friend ski, about to ski it myself.

I was touring with the owner of our local backcountry shop and of course he has now been well informed of the failure. His eyes opened pretty wide.

That link is fucking awesome.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

that wheel "failure" was determined to be caused by a specialized fork breaking, and causing the wheel to break. well beyond the scope of mavic's design, and any similar wheel would also fail in this scenario.

of course nobody cares that the specialized fork was the item at fault.

nah, that image should probably come down then.

Danno, I too accused Salomon of gross negligence because they grossly neglected their responsibilities as designers and manufacturers of gear on which we stake our lives. Lawyers do not have exclusive rights to use the words "gross"and "negligence". Language existed before lawyers existed.

Now Salomon has a chance to do something right. Let's see how they handle it.

Originally Posted by Summit

Wow.. I actually defended PMGear...

I see'd that! Craziness!

Originally Posted by skifishbum

I believe solifreeskiers last post to be sincere and believe TC will be taken care and I have faith in the good maggot Karma that TC holds will help heal him
Somebody ought to set up a paypal slush fund for him.
i aint gots much but $4.20 or even a buck or two from every mag would help tide him over as I'd imagine a few extra $$$ will make his road to recovery easier, reguardless of the compensation/ legal issues

I have already been thinking about this at great length, and the best I could come up with was a T-shirt campaign like we did for sitski when he took his X-Games spill via thievery/douchebaggery. This is kind of a similar incident I was thinking "I helped save TC" T-shirts would be pretty cool, and a good way to show support for a fallen comrade. I kind of asked him on the phone last night how the money situation was working out and he sounded really stressed, so based on SFB's post who would be interested in this if I put it together with my shirt guy? We're talking a white or black shirt with big opposite colored letters that say "I helped save TC!"... I'd totally wear it and although he might get a chunk of change down the road to ease the financial burden, it sounds like shit is getting tight at home right now. I could have it rolling in a matter of 2-3 days most likely.

Obviously we could do a paypal too, but I always felt like it's more fun when you get to rock a sweet insider's shirt with your contribution.

Originally Posted by DoWork

I see'd that! Craziness!



I have already been thinking about this at great length, and the best I could come up with was a T-shirt campaign like we did for sitski when he took his X-Games spill via thievery/douchebaggery. This is kind of a similar incident I was thinking "I helped save TC" T-shirts would be pretty cool, and a good way to show support for a fallen comrade. I kind of asked him on the phone last night how the money situation was working out and he sounded really stressed, so based on SFB's post who would be interested in this if I put it together with my shirt guy? We're talking a white or black shirt with big opposite colored letters that say "I helped save TC!"... I'd totally wear it and although he might get a chunk of change down the road to ease the financial burden, it sounds like shit is getting tight at home right now. I could have it rolling in a matter of 2-3 days most likely.

Obviously we could do a paypal too, but I always felt like it's more fun when you get to rock a sweet insider's shirt with your contribution.

DoWork - I like this idea.

How about somewhere on the T it says "I helped give TC change for a nickel?"

Originally Posted by peterslovo

DoWork - I like this idea.

How about somewhere on the T it says "I helped give TC change for a nickel?"

Or "I gave TC change for a nickel"... It implies so much more with the implication of the collective and all... I like it.

^^^ i'm down with that. those nickels add up.

Originally Posted by marshalolson

that wheel "failure" was determined to be caused by a specialized fork breaking, and causing the wheel to break. well beyond the scope of mavic's design, and any similar wheel would also fail in this scenario.

of course nobody cares that the specialized fork was the item at fault.

logic sucks man

Originally Posted by DoWork

Or "I gave TC change for a nickel"... It implies so much more with the implication of the collective and all... I like it.

And stickers. It never hurts to do whatever small thing you can to help a member of a community.

Originally Posted by DoWork

Or "I gave TC change for a nickel"... It implies so much more with the implication of the collective and all... I like it.

that sounds kinda gay. Like something you might give a guy in a truck stop restroom



PS - I did not know Roger Mosley needed help

Originally Posted by marshalolson

that wheel "failure" was determined to be caused by a specialized fork breaking, and causing the wheel to break. well beyond the scope of mavic's design, and any similar wheel would also fail in this scenario.

of course nobody cares that the specialized fork was the item at fault.

Oh, that is why Mavic recalled those wheels.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...s-recall_86435

Mavic released a dangerous front wheel, recalled it and managed to blame any and all failures in the field on user error. That's a corporation I can get behind.

Originally Posted by stradissimo

Oh, that is why Mavic recalled those wheels.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...s-recall_86435

Mavic released a dangerous front wheel, recalled it and managed to blame any and all failures in the field on user error. That's a corporation I can get behind.

If you actually read the first article you would see that this was a post recall wheel. Thanks for adding to the bullshit though. Idiot.