Thread: Socialism We Can Believe In!!

Originally Posted by YetiMan

so, if I'm generally for a wider middle class with fewer super-rich and fewer super-poor, how exactly does that hurt you? Anybody here a hundred-millionaire? If not, why do you defend their interests?

That would be cool if a wider middle class was where we were headed. We're actually headed for a HUGE working/semi-slave class and an ultra-small elite ruling class.

This whole thread is a fail from the get-go. Obama, Pelosi et al. are not Socialists, they're fledgling despots - just like the last batch. Anybody who thinks Free Healthcare and Financial Reform (and Immigration Reform and Disarming the populace) is in the best interest of we the people is fooling himself. Or allowing himself to be fooled.

This whole thread is a fail from the get-go. Obama, Pelosi et al. are not Socialists, they're fledgling despots - just like the last batch. Anybody who thinks Free Healthcare and Financial Reform (and Immigration Reform and Disarming the populace) is in the best interest of we the people is fooling himself. Or allowing himself to be fooled.

No one wants to talk about Tony Blair,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ergy-Corp.html

the good Progressive who made many similar promises as Obama?

Or how about all the states and countries going bankrupt from their bloated federal governments who's promises can't be kept? Italy? Spain? Greece? California? Michigan? New York?

Every body knows how good you Government workers have it. Everybody knows the public employees unions never give up a dime. Look at Greece right now. All the spoiled fuckers rioting in the streets now that the shit has hit the fan with the financial reality. You talk about people in the private sector, who subsidize your big fat benefits and pensions, as "selfish". Man, talk about the pot and the fucking kettle.

The reality is in the numbers. The aspiring despots promise you "health care reform", when it's really just mandatory corporate insurance with waiting lists, rationing, and at what I GARANTEE will be a much higher price for us all. A higher price we will pay in an ever shrinking private sector, mostly a hemorraging of jobs that small business can no longer afford to provide because of the massive burden of this EVER EXPANDING, INEFFICIENT, CORRUPT, UNACCOUNTABLE AND RECKLESS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Whether it's the Dems or the Repubs. in charge. Each one just caters to their own special interests before the good of the country, all the time.

Just look around you at states and countries where so called Progressives have had their way. What kind of progress do you see? Bankruptcy, loss of liberty, civil unrest, urban flight, dissapearing private sector. Who's going to pay your health care and your pensions, your fucking year plus of unemployment. Well, that's where political power comes down to the barrel of gun.

You think that we have Corporatism now? Just wait my friends, the future looks very good for corporations indeed. Especially the ones who "cooperate" with their masters.

Originally Posted by tone capone

Just look around you at states and countries where so called Progressives have had their way. What kind of progress do you see? Bankruptcy, loss of liberty, civil unrest, urban flight, dissapearing private sector. Who's going to pay your health care and your pensions, your fucking year plus of unemployment. Well, that's where political power comes down to the barrel of gun.

.

So I guess in your world, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, France don't exist, don't have better health care and social safety nets, don't have longer vacations, do have loss of liberty, civil unrest, etc.

I am glad I live in this world, Planet Earth, and when I recently traveled to northern Europe I saw none of the problems you mention. In all those countries the idea of replacing national health care with a US style corporate clusterfuck is beyond discussion, because everybody knows it is a stupid idea.

Similarly, once health care reform is passed, the discussion will eventually be about extending it, not repealing it. Even the Repubs who desperately fought against Medicare now use threats to weaken Medicare as an argument against health care reform.

Right-wingers fear health care reform so much because they know universal coverage will work and become commons sense in the US, just as it is in the rest of the industrialized world (without exception).

So enjoy your hysterical fear while it lasts....

Originally Posted by tommyvee

So I guess in your world, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, France don't exist, don't have better health care and social safety nets, don't have longer vacations, do have loss of liberty, civil unrest, etc.
..

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272

Here you go. Scroll down a bit and go full screen on the report. read up on the systems you envy. Dummy.

and when I recently traveled to northern Europe I saw none of the problems you mention.

Wow, well aren't you an expert. I'll be sure to defer to your worldly genius on these matters from now on. Are you going to do a TR?

Why don't you do a report on Canadian or British health care. Why don't you interview some real people about what it's like there. Take a trip to France when they are having one of those huge riots where they burn cars by the dozens in the streets. And the Netherlands, oh, such a great place to live right now. No problems there.

Why don't you take a look at what the balance sheets of those Socialist countries who produce next to nothing anymore. What do their prospects for the future look like? Tightening benefits, rationing, inflation, strikes, unemployment. It's all either happening now or right around the corner. My point is you can't have unfettered Socialism when you have no PRODUCTION. This is why we are going bankrupt.

The thing is Tommyvee, I partially agree with you. If the corruption in both Government and the fixed market insurance companies weren't so entrenched here, we could "spread the wealth around" a little more. I happen to agree with the fact that Government is a neccessary evil, but that only through genuine representation can we ensure that it does not become and intolerable evil. We could have a form of publicly subsidized health care if our government really was accountable to the people. Sure they let us vote, but are they really representing us? With that I would also like to see the insurance companies reformed for real, which would mean to GET THEM THE FUCK OUT OF BED with government. There is nothing resembling a free market in health care in this country. We have no real representation, they only pretend to represent us while pimping for the Corporations.

The reality is, the infrastructure we have to work with, in both the public and semi private sector is rotten to the core. Among the most monstrously unethical and inhumane systems on earth in my opinion. They are going to create the same thing with Health Care Reform as they created with the Housing Crisis.

There will rise to the top these giant Government Sponsored Enterprises, like Fanny and Freddie, and guess what. The public will be fleeced again by the same exact fucking ponzi scheme. It's called Fascism, and Corporatism is Fascism. If you really think this health care reform is anything but, you are the one living on another planet.

I happen to agree with Dennis Kucinich, before Obama waterboarded him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nhvAluve5k

Wake up to the Fascism people, this is why they are dividing and conquering you, so they can get away with this shit. It has worked for corrupt greedy rulers for centuries.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272

Here you go. Scroll down a bit and go full screen on the report. read up on the systems you envy. Dummy.

I think your problems with reading comprehension are showing up again.

The US ranks 37th in health care outcomes in the document you linked, and the 36 nations above it all have some form of national health care. The reasonable conclusion to draw from that report is that a system of national care, with appropriate use of market incentives within a framework of universal coverage delivers the best results cheapest. Sounds a lot like the US health care reform bill.

The document you linked is full of good information, as it shows the strengths and weaknesses of various systems (Switzerland's managed care based on private insurance companies with mandates and subsidies (a lot like Obamacare) vs Canada's single-payer,etc.). But only an ideologue would conclude against all evidence that the best system is the current US system with the highest costs, worst outcome, and lowest percent of the population covered. Only a super-ideologue would propose the mythical "unicorn and fairy" completely privatized, completely "free-market" system which does not and will not exist anywhere (Extra credit if you can figure out why there are not and will not be "pure free-market health care systems" anywhere).

But of course in Tea Party unicorn and fairly land, if only pure free market systems did exist, then they certainly would be the best...Right..

What, no love for me tommyvee?

The reality is, the infrastructure we have to work with, in both the public and semi private sector is rotten to the core. Among the most monstrously unethical and inhumane systems on earth in my opinion. They are going to create the same thing with Health Care Reform as they created with the Housing Crisis.

There will rise to the top these giant Government Sponsored Enterprises, like Fanny and Freddie, and guess what. The public will be fleeced again by the same exact fucking ponzi scheme. It's called Fascism, and Corporatism is Fascism. If you really think this health care reform is anything but, you are the one living on another planet.

I happen to agree with Dennis Kucinich, before Obama waterboarded him.

Originally Posted by tone capone

Wow, well aren't you an expert. I'll be sure to defer to your worldly genius on these matters from now on. Are you going to do a TR?

Why don't you do a report on Canadian or British health care. Why don't you interview some real people about what it's like there. Take a trip to France when they are having one of those huge riots where they burn cars by the dozens in the streets. And the Netherlands, oh, such a great place to live right now. No problems there.

Why don't you take a look at what the balance sheets of those Socialist countries who produce next to nothing anymore. What do their prospects for the future look like? Tightening benefits, rationing, inflation, strikes, unemployment. It's all either happening now or right around the corner. My point is you can't have unfettered Socialism when you have no PRODUCTION. This is why we are going bankrupt.

The thing is Tommyvee, I partially agree with you. If the corruption in both Government and the fixed market insurance companies weren't so entrenched here, we could "spread the wealth around" a little more. I happen to agree with the fact that Government is a neccessary evil, but that only through genuine representation can we ensure that it does not become and intolerable evil. We could have a form of publicly subsidized health care if our government really was accountable to the people. Sure they let us vote, but are they really representing us? With that I would also like to see the insurance companies reformed for real, which would mean to GET THEM THE FUCK OUT OF BED with government. There is nothing resembling a free market in health care in this country. We have no real representation, they only pretend to represent us while pimping for the Corporations.

The reality is, the infrastructure we have to work with, in both the public and semi private sector is rotten to the core. Among the most monstrously unethical and inhumane systems on earth in my opinion. They are going to create the same thing with Health Care Reform as they created with the Housing Crisis.

There will rise to the top these giant Government Sponsored Enterprises, like Fanny and Freddie, and guess what. The public will be fleeced again by the same exact fucking ponzi scheme. It's called Fascism, and Corporatism is Fascism. If you really think this health care reform is anything but, you are the one living on another planet.

I happen to agree with Dennis Kucinich, before Obama waterboarded him.



Wake up to the Fascism people, this is why they are dividing and conquering you, so they can get away with this shit. It has worked for corrupt greedy rulers for centuries.

My wife's family is French, so I spend plenty of time in France, all her relatives are quite satisfied with their mix of public and private care, and are frankly horrified and mystified that a wealthy country like the US would allow those citizens unlucky enough to get sick or injured to be bankrupted and denied care.
If Canada's system is so terrible, why is the discussion of a US style system politically impossible even for the right?
The NHS was basically wrecked by Thatcher and her right-wing buddies, which is the typical right-wing trick of running government into the ground and then complaining that it does not work. But even the messed-up NHS works much better than the US health mess.

All the "socialist" countries I mentioned have lower absolute and per-capita national debt than the US. There are riots in France, but they are about he treatment of immigrants, not about health care. Somehow, people on a waiting list for elective care in national health systems (an obvious attempt to better utilize and make more efficient limited health infrastructure) is equivalent to the many uninsured and under-insured denied life saving care in the US

Curious, anyone know the typical tax rates in France and these other well run gov't run healthcare countries ? Just a ball park average for a wage earner of say $50K would be nice.

Originally Posted by tommyvee

I think your problems with reading comprehension are showing up again.

The US ranks 37th in health care outcomes in the document you linked, and the 36 nations above it all have some form of national health care. The reasonable conclusion to draw from that report is that a system of national care, with appropriate use of market incentives within a framework of universal coverage delivers the best results cheapest. Sounds a lot like the US health care reform bill.

The document you linked is full of good information, as it shows the strengths and weaknesses of various systems (Switzerland's managed care based on private insurance companies with mandates and subsidies (a lot like Obamacare) vs Canada's single-payer,etc.). But only an ideologue would conclude against all evidence that the best system is the current US system with the highest costs, worst outcome, and lowest percent of the population covered. Only a super-ideologue would propose the mythical "unicorn and fairy" completely privatized, completely "free-market" system which does not and will not exist anywhere (Extra credit if you can figure out why there are not and will not be "pure free-market health care systems" anywhere).

But of course in Tea Party unicorn and fairly land, if only pure free market systems did exist, then they certainly would be the best...Right..

So much for reading comprehension. It goes on to explain why the rankings are bogus. I realize there will never be true free market healthcare just like there is not true free market anything. But going from 50% government run to 100% instead of 10% or 20% is kinda the wrong direction. It always cracks me up when a condescending liberal acts like the professor. Extra credit. Oh really! Yippie can I get extra credit from tommyvee!

Originally Posted by OSECS

Curious, anyone know the typical tax rates in France and these other well run gov't run healthcare countries ? Just a ball park average for a wage earner of say $50K would be nice.

I know they have cronic double digit unemployment. Like we will have now. I know the middle class there lives like our poor.

Originally Posted by tommyvee

My wife's family is French, so I spend plenty of time in France, all her relatives are quite satisfied with their mix of public and private care, and are frankly horrified and mystified that a wealthy country like the US would allow those citizens unlucky enough to get sick or injured to be bankrupted and denied care.

Both parties would like to fix those issues. They disagree on how.

If Canada's system is so terrible, why is the discussion of a US style system politically impossible even for the right?

Because people are ignorant of the superiority of the private economy and politicians can't touch ANY entitlements. That's why they should never be created in the first place.

The NHS was basically wrecked by Thatcher and her right-wing buddies, which is the typical right-wing trick of running government into the ground and then complaining that it does not work. But even the messed-up NHS works much better than the US health mess.

Tee Heee

All the "socialist" countries I mentioned have lower absolute and per-capita national debt than the US.

Are they defending the world? They have almost free national defense paid by us. Maybe we shouldn't be but we are and it ain't cheap.

123456789

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

I know they have cronic double digit unemployment. Like we will have now. I know the middle class there lives like our poor.

Go to:
http://www.bls.gov/fls/intl_unemploy...es_monthly.htm

and you will see that France,Germany,Sweden,Italy, and the UK have lower unemployment rates than the US for 2009, and NONE of them are double digits.
Note that the "socialist" Netherlands unemployment peaked at 4%. Plus being unemployed in a social welfare state is nothing like the US, where people sleeping and begging on the street is common in any city. Unemployed people in EU have housing, food, medical covered, with no need for cardboard to sleep on.

If you think the Euro middle-class lives like our poor, you are severely divorced from reality or just very niave. Do the poor in the US get healthcare, 6 weeks minimum vacation, free or very cheap higher education?
Quality of life for the Euro middle class is very high, and I would argue better than quality of life for US middle class. No one worries about being bankrupted because they got high blood pressure,etc.
Obviously the US upper class lives better, which is the whole point of our system of institutionalized inequality.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Curious, anyone know the typical tax rates in France and these other well run gov't run healthcare countries ? Just a ball park average for a wage earner of say $50K would be nice.

Easy enough to find. US taxes run around 30% of GDP, versus ~40% of GDP in EU. But the US spends 16% of income on health care, plus much higher costs to the individual for higher education, retirement, etc. Finally, the EU taxes are much more progressive, so the total tax plus social safety net replacement costs are much higher for the middle class in the US than in EU, since the US middle class bears a much bigger percentage of the tax burden than in EU (especially after Republican "tax reform").

http://gozonews.com/3086/eu-tax-leve...-of-the-world/

"The weighted tax-to-GDP ratio (i.e. the total amount of taxes and social security contributions) in the EU27 increased to 39.9% in 2006 from 39.3% in 2005. The EU27 tax ratio is nevertheless lower than in 1996 (40.3%) and the peak of 41.0% in 1999. The downtrend which had started in 1999 in most Member States stopped in 2005. In 2006, the overall tax ratio in the euro area (EA15) was 40.5%, up from 39.8% in 2005. Since 1996, taxes in the euro area have followed a similar trend to the EU27, although at a slightly higher level.

EU tax levels remain generally high in comparison with the rest of the world, with the EU27 tax ratio exceeding those of the USA and Japan by some 12 percentage points. However, the tax burden varies significantly between Member States, ranging in 2006 from less than 30% in Romania (28.6%), Slovakia (29.3%) and Lithuania (29.7%), to almost 50% in Denmark (49.1%) and Sweden (48.9%)."

Note that the current(Republican) extremely low tax rates for the wealthy are a historical anomaly even in the US.
http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/...d-compliance-0
"It should be noted, too, that the current levels of taxation on the wealthy are among the lowest in American history. The top tax rate [PDF] has fluctuated wildly since the passage of the 16th amendment in 1913 and was above 60 percent for most of the 20th Century. John Cole graphed it thusly:"

Uh Oh!

FLASH: Senate Republicans found a provision in the new House health care bill that likely makes it ineligible for expedited 'reconciliation' procedures in the Senate. Dems refused to meet with GOP and Parliamentarian.... Developing....

Stupak is IN

Originally Posted by rideit

Stupak is IN

So, how long will it take for Obama to rescind that executive order?

Hope the guy doesn't really think he just saved a bunch of babies.

Tommy - what makes you think that if this bill passes we're going to eventually be just like Norway?

Like I said - idiots who think we're headed for Euro-style socialism are, well, idiots. You chastise right-wingers for linking Obama to socialism then you do the exact same thing. Like I said - Obama is not a socialist. It'd be nice if he was, but he's not. Nor was Bush, nor will (probably ) the next figurehead be.

So, I get home from work and my wife has a big ass cake in the oven. I'm like "Hey babe, what's up with the cake?"

She says, "I thought we should have one last cake before they are banned".

Mrs. DBT Rocks.

Nobody in my house thinks this is a good thing. BTW JIM OBERSTAR SUCKS ASS.

Originally Posted by Downbound Train

So, I get home from work and my wife has a big ass cake in the oven. I'm like "Hey babe, what's up with the cake?"

She says, "I thought we should have one last cake before they are banned".

jeebus man, you CAN have cake.
you just cant eat it too.

its such a simple rool.

Originally Posted by OSECS

Curious, anyone know the typical tax rates in France and these other well run gov't run healthcare countries ? Just a ball park average for a wage earner of say $50K would be nice.

I'm in Australia. We've got universal healthcare.

My tax rate when I was in the bracket you reference was effectively 19.5% income (stated 25% rate less first $6,000 of annual income being tax-free), plus 1.5% of taxable income for Medicare. Worked out to be around $1,800 AUD for the year for my wife and I with our combined incomes for Medicare, which is paid at the end of the financial year on the tax return unless you personally elect to pay it in instalments beforehand.

Our insurance premium payments that were deducted from our paychecks in the US, that were through a hospital insurance plan, totalled a little under $2,400 USD, not to mention the 1.45% medicare we paid that we'll never, ever see again.