Our National Parks, Now! with guns

[squatch]

also, guns are cool. people always seem to ignore that in these debates.

[Tippster]

Coolness does count... to children.

Jumper: I'm not against people owning guns. I'm against the notion that they solve self-defense issues. When someone jumps you by surprise - be it from the shadows of an alley or from behind shrubbery - you do not have the opportunity to react in time to draw, aim, and fire your weapon effectively. The father/son team that killed the X-Country skier most likely did not wander up to him menacingly slapping a club in their palm - they also are aware that many people carry guns, so would take steps to protect themselves from getting shot.

Simply carrying a firearm is not like wearing a magic helmet, and very very often solely provides the bad guys with another gun to use in crimes.

[QuikR12]

Coolness does count... to children.

Jumper: I'm not against people owning guns. I'm against the notion that they solve self-defense issues. When someone jumps you by surprise - be it from the shadows of an alley or from behind shrubbery - you do not have the opportunity to react in time to draw, aim, and fire your weapon effectively. The father/son team that killed the X-Country skier most likely did not wander up to him menacingly slapping a club in their palm - they also are aware that many people carry guns, so would take steps to protect themselves from getting shot.

Simply carrying a firearm is not like wearing a magic helmet, and very very often solely provides the bad guys with another gun to use in crimes.

You never know what opportunity you'll have when jumped or assaulted until it happens. Surprisingly enough, there are quite a few circumstances that would allow someone who has some self-defense technique to draw the weapon during the altercation before being beaten to death. I guess that is contingent on each person's awareness, reflexes, strength, and skill, but making the argument that in most circumstances carrying a gun is worthless in anyone's defense, is narrow sighted and discounting your and my abilities to survive in such a situation.

[Tippster]

You never know what opportunity you'll have when jumped or assaulted until it happens. Surprisingly enough, there are quite a few circumstances that would allow someone who has some self-defense technique to draw the weapon during the altercation before being beaten to death. I guess that is contingent on each person's awareness, reflexes, strength, and skill, but making the argument that in most circumstances carrying a gun is worthless in anyone's defense, is narrow sighted and discounting your and my abilities to survive in such a situation.

Yeah. Whatever. Carry on, killer. The best defense is awareness of your surroundings and mitigating the possibility of getting jumped. It sure as fuck isn't carrying a weapon in an Urban setting. (Thread drift, I know.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rue&print=true

[mtskier]

i'll repeat myself again. i'm not trying to take your guns away. there are already many restrictions on where you can carry and what you can carry. why are you so excited to carry in the parks? i don't see the need and you have not proven it to me.

from the sound of some of these comments, i feel like people who carry are just looking for a reason to use it.

everyone needs to shut up about this patriotic crap. carrying a gun is not patriotic.

[QuikR12]

The best defense is awareness of your surroundings and mitigating the possibility of getting jumped. It sure as fuck isn't carrying a weapon in an Urban setting. (Thread drift, I know.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rue&print=true

That's pretty much what I said... but if you're aware of your surroundings enough to mitigate being jumped, IMO if you are packing anything, you're aware enough to be able to react in SOME situations that your defense weapon makes a difference, thats all I'm sayin. Sometimes you're just fucked, sometimes you've got a chance. Also, a defense weapon could be about anything; a book, a belt, or a fucking cell phone. Its just having that awareness and the cognizance of what to do IF. My point is, after you've been randomly selected for a jumping, your chances of survival are better if you do have a weapon than if you don't.

[Stone-Free]

Don't think I could do the CCW stuff that easily as I just won't wear a fanny pack, not ever ever ever.

No fanny packs allowed. Something like this is good to go.

[khakis]

i.e., the driver chose to drive too fast, the driver chose to run that red light, the driver chose to get hammered and then drive home, etc....

hey that's pretty good...do you write the ads for Anderson Hemmatt and Levine?

hehe...you Denver mags know what I'm talking about...

[QuikR12]

i'll repeat myself again. i'm not trying to take your guns away. there are already many restrictions on where you can carry and what you can carry. why are you so excited to carry in the parks? i don't see the need and you have not proven it to me.

from the sound of some of these comments, i feel like people who carry are just looking for a reason to use it.

everyone needs to shut up about this patriotic crap. carrying a gun is not patriotic.

I never took your argument as though you are advocating taking guns away, but you did state that the constitution is not a legitimate justification for them.

Also in your opinion, protecting against crackheads is also not a valid justification to do so. I'm not sure where you're from, but there are a whole lot of them where I live; and they are fucking looney.

There also are, although very unlikely, circumstances in which preserving public gun ownership would be patriotic. I'm not supposing carrying a gun is patriotic, but it could be.

Lets consider another a situation that does exhibit a patriotic and brave example of gun use. Say your mom or sister is in a park or down a dimly lit ally and is being attacked by a rapist. There's some statistic that suggests most people would cower away and leave the scene out of fear of personal harm. Probably not the citizen who's packing a .38 in his belt, maybe because of him your mother or sister is saved from rape. Would that not be patriotic? Sure this again isn't likely to happen to your family, but I'm sure it has happened more than once before. If it did happen to your family, would you feel the same?

[TNKen]

I'd like to take this opportunity to invite any and all non-felonious mags to shoot a bunch of shit in the desert with some pretty fun firearms if there is any Utah summit in the near future. It will be like a pot luck, but instead of casserole I'll bring an assortment of loud, frightening, inanimate objects.

Dates?? How much ammo can you guys haul. My stuff kinda likes lots of ammo.

[mtskier]

QuikR12: i appreciate your arguments and agree on some levels.

but your scenario is brave, NOT patriotic.

i only threw in the constitution comment because the 2nd amendment was written for a different time. we have no fear of being invaded.

[Stone-Free]

Dates?? How much ammo can you guys haul. My stuff kinda likes lots of ammo.

I have about 10K of 5.56. I will share.

[Tye 1on]

Stone-Free-
This attached belt clip on the Kel-Tec p11 9mm works great too.


Tipp-
You have a valid point, and one that was freakin hammered in to us at the CCW course I took. I forget the details, but the recommended order was something like: avoid; flee; engage...

[QuikR12]

QuikR12: i appreciate your arguments and agree on some levels.

thx

but your scenario is brave, NOT patriotic.

Protecting a fellow citizen is not Patriotic? I disagree.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I am not convinced by either finding (this study or Lott and Mustard) that you can isolate the effects of concealed carry on crime rates to such a degree to be called reliable. There are simply too many variables contributing to the crime rate that can't be accounted for.

Regardless, I have never bought into "more guns, less crime."

What I do buy into is the simple fact that in one case I am able to defend myself and family, and in the other I am not.

Sounds reasonable and I agree. it's a situational thing for sure. Whatever makes you feel most comfortable. I don't have a CC permit and probably won't get one...nevertheless it's fine by me that it's a right others have. I just don't know how effective it is as a form of defense. Somewhere I read that more often than not the weapon is taken from the person with the CC permit trying to protect themselves and/or their family...then turned and used on them. I find that hard to believe, but it's something to consider.

An anecdotal story from going night skiing several years ago. On the way up to Mt. Hood Ski Bowl a friend of mine and I were cut off by what looked like a child molester van (you know, tinted port hole window, rusted out, generally a shitbox). So, pissed off we drive up and give the dude driving some shit as we're passing. Few minutes later the van is back passing us again but this time dudes got his hand gun out pointed at us. We slammed on the breaks and let the dude go on his merry way. Shit like that is why I think some people just don't need to have guns....but what are you going to do? profile every person in the U.S. for tendencies towards violence?

[Parvo]

I'll see your loud, frightening, inanimate objects and raise you a few of these:


I'm there!

Tannerite is also a fun 'interactive' target and easily available.

[endoverender]

Somewhere I read that more often than not the weapon is taken from the person with the CC permit trying to protect themselves and/or their family...then turned and used on them. I find that hard to believe, but it's something to consider.

It is definitely something to consider. This is the reason I would never, never use a firearm to simply diffuse an argument. Avoidance and fleeing are always the best choices in 99% of situations. The only time my gun comes out (and it never has) is when my or someones else's life is seriously threatened. That is the only time you'll ever know I'm carrying.

An anecdotal story from going night skiing several years ago. On the way up to Mt. Hood Ski Bowl a friend of mine and I were cut off by what looked like a child molester van (you know, tinted port hole window, rusted out, generally a shitbox). So, pissed off we drive up and give the dude driving some shit as we're passing. Few minutes later the van is back passing us again but this time dudes got his hand gun out pointed at us. We slammed on the breaks and let the dude go on his merry way. Shit like that is why I think some people just don't need to have guns....but what are you going to do? profile every person in the U.S. for tendencies towards violence?

Agreed.

[Parvo]

My collection isn't anywhere near this level... yet.

[soulman978]

i'll repeat myself again. i'm not trying to take your guns away. there are already many restrictions on where you can carry and what you can carry. why are you so excited to carry in the parks? i don't see the need and you have not proven it to me.

from the sound of some of these comments, i feel like people who carry are just looking for a reason to use it.

Did you even read anything I posted? Why are you still under the assumption that the CHOICE to carry is a need??

everyone needs to shut up about this patriotic crap. carrying a gun is not patriotic.

Neither is saying that the Constitution is lame.

[soulman978]

An anecdotal story from going night skiing several years ago. On the way up to Mt. Hood Ski Bowl a friend of mine and I were cut off by what looked like a child molester van (you know, tinted port hole window, rusted out, generally a shitbox). So, pissed off we drive up and give the dude driving some shit as we're passing. Few minutes later the van is back passing us again but this time dudes got his hand gun out pointed at us. We slammed on the breaks and let the dude go on his merry way. Shit like that is why I think some people just don't need to have guns....but what are you going to do? profile every person in the U.S. for tendencies towards violence?

Chances are good that that was not even a legally owned weapon. Nothing you can do about that..

[Jumper Bones]

i only threw in the constitution comment because the 2nd amendment was written for a different time. we have no fear of being invaded.

Taking American settler's guns back then not only surpressed possible armed insurrection, it also removed a settler's means of providing food for their family through hunting, as well as took away their ability to defend themselves from Indian war parties or whatever injuns were out there. In effect it was a possible death sentence for the frontiersmen.

People just want the option, the choice to be able to defend themselves. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

Using your logic, would it be OK to decide other things we hold dear in that bill of rights are outdated, and start quartering troops in your home? You know, the gov't is low on money, and I'm sure providing barracks is expensive. Or for Mitt Romney to get elected, and because he's Mormon declare it the official US religion, and we all have to go that way too?

These are things we hold dear, they're important.

Tippy - I see your argument, and I remember crystalxrteme's robbery and that whole thread. You have to remember this is an individual's choice, and deciding from where you are that no-one can defend themselves in this matter because you don't see it working out...well it's the same vein as Tim Tebow's mom deciding for America that she's glad she didn't abort her son, and she's crazy for the Jesus so therefore it must be made illegal and no-one else should have the option.

[crstlextrm]

the constitutional agruement is lame. i know its a right, but that was written over 200 years ago. i want to know why in today's world you need to carry. and please don't say to protect against meth heads and such.

we have heard 3 stories where guns have saved lives or prevented crime. with a google search we can find 1000s of incidents where guns have caused or escalated an incidence that led to an unnecessary death.

Living in a supposedly free society we should not have our rights taken away, no matter when those rights were written.

What needs to happen is that gun crimes should be punished 10x more severely. If you use weapons to intimidate or rob innocent people you should be removed from society.....permanently.

If we sent the message that crimes involving deadly weapons would be punishable by lethal injection or maybe a nice gulag located somewhere in the aluetians I think the crime rate would plummet.

[mtskier]

i do value the constitution and the bill of rights. i just think both should be open to a modern day interpretation.

soulman978: i never said the constitution was lame, just the argument.

[yodaottis]

Modern day interpretation: Despite well established historical trends suggesting otherwise, an unarmed population has nothing to fear from its ruling class.

Second amendment exists not to protect the population of the United States from foreign invaders, it exists to protect everything else in the constitution from the United States. If the first amendment were treated as the second amendment is being treated in our country, people wouldn't be so open to modern day interpretation. But then again, maybe people wouldn't even be allowed to discuss the first amendment at that point.

[I Dunno]

Yeah. Whatever. Carry on, killer. The best defense is awareness of your surroundings and mitigating the possibility of getting jumped. It sure as fuck isn't carrying a weapon in an Urban setting. (Thread drift, I know.)

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rue&print=true

That article is bullshit, most of the people that get killed are gangbangers carrying without a permit.