Community LBS rant

**Conundrum** · 01-14-2010, 11:03 AM

Boise is claiming to become a bike mecca of sorts. I just bought a Hammerschmidt (thank you Rontele) and a frame is in the mail (thanks bags). How is it in a bike mecca with a progressive freeride park, some decent lift served near by, 3 or 4 covert ops freeride areas, 600,000 people, and countless bike shops, does nobody have a $175 facing tool to get my iscg tabs and BB shell into tolerance. The closest facing tool is 5 hours away.

In my last six trips to an LBS over that last couple years, here's my experience:

1-Me calling our largest Specialized dealer-"Hey I'm thinking about getting a Specialized Demo. Do you have one I can rent to try out?" Shop guy - "Yeah, we have a bunch of demos in, come on down." So I go there and ask for the Demo and get "Which Demo, we have a Stumpjumpers and Epics in all sizes, what do you want to try?" "Errr, a Specialized Demo, you know, their downhill bike?" "Oh, we don't carry big hit bikes."

2-Me-"Hey, I would like to buy some 5.10 Impacts". Them-"5.10 only makes climbing shoes." Me-"Google Sam Hill and tell me what's on his feet?"

3-"We don't carry Code parts. You don't need anything more than a Juicy around here. Try the internet."

4-Here's your cables and housing.

5-"We only have one full face in the shop and it's a small."

6-No one in town has the iscg tab facing tool.

So in my last six tries to work with LBSs, I've been able to buy cables and housing.

Any workarounds to face tabs? Maybe a 1.5 headtube facer? Not that the shops here would have one...

LittleYellowFriend · 01-14-2010, 11:43 AM

Seems like there are needs going unmet. Start your own shop!

**Particle** · 01-14-2010, 11:44 AM

Sounds exactly like my time in Central Cal. And Ohio, but that's more understandable.

Ridiculously spoiled having Go-Ride as an LBS here...

**flowtron's ghost** · 01-14-2010, 11:45 AM

Some of the prior visits are definitely silly, but in defense of the iscg facing tool or lack thereof: That is an expensive tool that is used only to do one thing, set up Hammershmickle. Chainguides all have enough adjustment built in that its not necessary to face the tabs unless something is seriously messed up with the frame.
From what I've heard, facing tabs isn't always necessary with HS, but I think Marshall can speak to that better than I.

It they are way off or have gobs of paint I think a disc brake tab facer and a straightedge might help clean things up.

Edit: Its one thing if they have sold a few Hammershickles and don't have the tool, but spending(or not) money on a tool they might use once in a blue moon is a decision most shops have to make.
We have a tool fetish at my shop and look for every excuse to buy (or fabricate ourselves) the best tool for the job and we don't have one of those (yet).

**mtnjam** · 01-14-2010, 11:58 AM

Have you asked Phil or Zane at Joyride?

Yeah, I've found that at the LBS you are probably speaking of it depends on who you are dealing with. Had a shoe issue with them at one time also.

**marshalolson** · 01-14-2010, 12:00 PM

buy a really nice hand file. face it yourself in 2 minutes.

done.

**Buttepacker** · 01-14-2010, 12:48 PM

I hear ya. I ALWAYS try to support the LBS first, but it doesn't help if they don't try to help you out too. I've had a lot of BS from bike shops this year for some reason.

Me: "Do you have any spoke wrenches?"

Them: "Yep, should have some right over there."

Me: "Looks like they're out."

Them: "Oh" (silence)

(crickets)

.... waiting for them to offer to order some new ones, and call me when they get in.....

(silence)

Me: "OK, well, see you later."

I understand they can't carry everything, but shit, offer to order it for me so I don't go online and buy it from your competitor.

**Dickeymotto** · 01-14-2010, 01:45 PM

Thats kinda how it is in Ogden as well. You have Bingham's (which gets more worthless every time I go there), Skyline (haven't been there in a while, but they didn't have much when I was there last), and Canyon Sports. I have to go down to SLC to find anything really useful. Most of the time I just buy it online and do it myself. Kinda shitty not supporting local shops, but I really hate putting up with the local shops, Bingham's mostly.

**Conundrum** · 01-14-2010, 01:48 PM

Yeah, it's a specialized tool but I called 10 shops this morning and only two of the mechanics I spoke with knew what iscg tabs were before I explained that you bolted a chain guide to them. Speaking of specialized tools, there is ONE 1.5 headtube facer in Boise-George's on State. Isn't the ISCG facer $175? Seems a little expensive but I doubt there is going to less Hammerschmidts being installed in the future.

Joyride doesn't but they offered to buy one as did Dave over at B2B.

Probably going the file route or taking the frame with me the next time I'm in SLC.

**marshalolson** · 01-14-2010, 01:58 PM

you will get as good or better results w/ a file.

(setup probably 8-10 HS setups, personally)

**Conundrum** · 01-14-2010, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by marshalolson

you will get as good or better results w/ a file.

(setup probably 8-10 HS setups, personally)

Thought this might be the answer but didn't want to guinnea pig so this news is good to hear.

Originally Posted by flowtron's ghost

Some of the prior visits are definitely silly, but in defense of the iscg facing tool or lack thereof: That is an expensive tool that is used only to do one thing, set up Hammershmickle.

I understand a shop's perspective but a little business accumen might be called for in this case. I'm not sure most bike shops have heard of a loss leader. Yeah, you lose $175 for a tool. But, like my experience today, if you were the one shop that had the tool, you would gain customers that go to you for everything. I would love a local shop that I could hang out at, check out all the new cool stuff, get tech advice, etc. We have little pieces and parts in different shops but nothing even close to a complete package.

I bet there are over 20 shops in Boise with a couple claiming to be freeride oriented. I won't name names but one shop that makes that claim had a mechanic who I had to explain the term iscg tabs and hammerschmidt to. He's the freeride tech and I'm the customer. I understood when I called the roadie/xc shop, but really, a shop that has a DH team...c'mon.

I guess that's why I call Green Mountain or Go-ride when I need something. Those guys are in two different states but stock the goods, are reasonably priced, have the knowledge, and get me stuff faster than I could get ordering from the internet or having an LBS do it. At least I'm supporting an LBS, maybe just not my LBS.

And for the record, the Hammerschmidt was just the straw that hurt the camel...

**XtrPickels** · 01-14-2010, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

I bet there are over 20 shops in Boise with a couple claiming to be freeride oriented. I won't name names but one shop that makes that claim had a mechanic who I had to explain the term iscg tabs and hammerschmidt to. He's the freeride tech and I'm the customer. I understood when I called the roadie/xc shop, but really, a shop that has a DH team...c'mon.

I'm moderately knowledgeable (because of this place) and I hate it when I have to explain things to shops. They lose credibility and I have difficulty supporting them.

**gonehuckin** · 01-14-2010, 06:27 PM

Ya all have been in ski shops before so you know the deal. Best to do your homework and find someone who you trust to do the work and stick with it.

Originally Posted by Dickeymotto

Thats kinda how it is in Ogden as well. You have Bingham's (which gets more worthless every time I go there), Skyline (haven't been there in a while, but they didn't have much when I was there last), and Canyon Sports. I have to go down to SLC to find anything really useful. Most of the time I just buy it online and do it myself. Kinda shitty not supporting local shops, but I really hate putting up with the local shops, Bingham's mostly.

Try The Bike Shoppe. I've never been in there but they are nice to deal with on the phone and at least the one staff member I talk to on the regular is knowledgable....

**powwrangler** · 01-15-2010, 02:31 PM

file or find someone that has a mill, the ultimate facing machine, although you may have to get creative with a fixture

**Krash** · 01-15-2010, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

Isn't the ISCG facer $175?

Well it is actually a $135 cutter that attaches to the Park $240-$360 handle.

Personally I've had one customer looking to have tabs faced. I use a Cyclus BB facer, so for me to get the ISCG facer I need to buy the Park handle as well as the cutters. It would take me years to recoup the $375 investment on such a specialty tool. But if I sold someone a $5k custom build with a H.S. I would buy it in a second for that one build.

Well maybe I would just jig it up in my Bridgeport mill and save the $375?

**Conundrum** · 01-15-2010, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Krash

Well it is actually a $135 cutter that attaches to the Park $240-$360 handle.

Personally I've had one customer looking to have tabs faced. I use a Cyclus BB facer, so for me to get the ISCG facer I need to buy the Park handle as well as the cutters. It would take me years to recoup the $375 investment on such a specialty tool. But if I sold someone a $5k custom build with a H.S. I would buy it in a second for that one build.

Well maybe I would just jig it up in my Bridgeport mill and save the $375?

This somewhat supports my point.

Are you going to recoup the money for that tool? Maybe someday. Do you ever recoup money on advertising? Probably but can you prove it?

Word of mouth is a strong advertising tool. Someone trying to put a Hammerschmidt on is probably someone that has a cool bike. That person might be someone that people view as in the know whether that person knows shit or not (probably a 50/50 shot here). Maybe that guy is someone who just buys the cool shit because he surfs TGR all day from his office and has money or maybe he is someone who can ride. For my arguement, regardless of the type of person, let's say that guy is someone people at the lifts and freeride parks look to to see what's new and cool.

Follow me out to the local freeride park for a hypothetical conversation.

"Hey man, what's that?"

"Oh, that's a Hammerschmidt...they're pretty cool. It's a new setup Truvativ is making."

"Does it work, looks weird?"

"Yeah it's sweet, shifts without pedaling, shorter chain, less chain wear, built in bash guard, way better clearance..."

"Huh, will one of those fit on my bike?"

"Yeah, but you'll have to have your tabs faced. Only a couple shops around that even have the tools for that."

"Where did you go?"

Now here's where the story goes your way.

"I took it down to Krash's shop. He styled it for me. I guess it's some sort of special tool that not many shops have."

"Cool, you go to Krash's shop much?"

"I do now. He's the only guy who knew what was up with this Hammerschmidt."

I could be full of shit and it could be a $135 gamble, but I bet a shop would gain that amount of business just for having the tool. At least in the Boise area. There's a lot of kids at the park here and a bunch getting into shuttling. They all talk about what's new and cool. It would be hard to quantify results but what is $135 going to get you in the local newspaper?

I went down to UT for their race series this year. I was introduced to go-ride and really like the guys. They have helped me with parts and knowledge at races, I've been to their shop in SLC, they stock cool and necessary DH/freeride parts, they have a knowledgeable staff, etc. I've spent more there in the last year than all of my LBSs combined. I know three or four of my buddies from Boise order from them now. And that's just routine stuff like brake pads and cables.

The problem is that go-ride is a 5 hour drive...can't just drive over to drop my frame off. After striking out in Boise for the tab facing, I'll called them to see if they had the tool. Of course they did. They said they could do it that day and then we had a great conversation about Hammerschmidts-a totally different experience.

I know there is a need being unmet here...I guess I could try to open a shop but that's not in the cards right now. So, I gripe about it on the interweb.

**flowtron's ghost** · 01-16-2010, 09:28 AM

I think the biggest point you've illustrated is that Boise might need a shop that has a knowledge and focus on DH/freeride stuff. I feel you there. Even when I worked at a shop in SLC, I would go to Go-Ride when I needed stuff in a pinch and didn't have time to order.
The reality is that Go-Ride is one a few shops in the country that is really doing well by focusing on that end of the spectrum....and they've worked their asses off for a looooong time to make it happen, sacrificed a ton, gambled a lot, and earned every bit of what they've got going right now. They've gotten there by serving a national and international market. They have to, because making a DH'FR focussed shop flourish with just regional customers is damn near impossible. Mojo Wheels has got it going here in Denver, but thats largely because they've built a huge part of their market with a massive race program. They also do some mailorder, but its no where near Go-Ride's numbers.
There other hitch is that the DH/FR customer is usually a savvy, DIY, informed customer who feels entitled to, or is always looking for hookups. That chops into margin, with means a long painful death unless your volume is huge. They do a lot of their own installation and service, which also chops into potential dollars for the shop. Its just a tight market for a shop to get into.
Like Krash said, if a customer bought an HS through me, I wouldn't hesitate to order the tools to get it done right. But you bought a HS second hand, and its a gamble if a shop(or number of shops in a town) that hasn't sold one would have that very specialized tool. Its still a relatively new product, and for a time there was more Hammerschmidts out there than the facing tool that Truvativ invented to CYA when they realized there were some issues during installation.
I'm not trying to jump down your throat here, its just that I'm a bike shop guy who was heavily involved in DH racing and the scene for a while and I have spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about this kind of stuff. I'd love to sell, service and immerse myself in the kind of stuff that Go-Ride moves out the door, and I can bet that theres hundreds of shop guys like me out there, but I also need to eat and pay my mortgage....so with that...I'm off to sell some Chrome bags, discuss chain and tape colors and hopefully move a Spot and a Knolly out the door.

**gravitylover** · 01-16-2010, 12:09 PM

Ditto here.

While you're off selling a Spot and a Knolly I'll be paying the bills selling FX's, Sirrus's and Bromptons. Maybe a couple of Krypto chains too...

Originally Posted by flowtron's ghost

I think the biggest point you've illustrated is that Boise might need a shop that has a knowledge and focus on DH/freeride stuff. I feel you there. Even when I worked at a shop in SLC, I would go to Go-Ride when I needed stuff in a pinch and didn't have time to order.
The reality is that Go-Ride is one a few shops in the country that is really doing well by focusing on that end of the spectrum....and they've worked their asses off for a looooong time to make it happen, sacrificed a ton, gambled a lot, and earned every bit of what they've got going right now. They've gotten there by serving a national and international market. They have to, because making a DH'FR focussed shop flourish with just regional customers is damn near impossible. Mojo Wheels has got it going here in Denver, but thats largely because they've built a huge part of their market with a massive race program. They also do some mailorder, but its no where near Go-Ride's numbers.
There other hitch is that the DH/FR customer is usually a savvy, DIY, informed customer who feels entitled to, or is always looking for hookups. That chops into margin, with means a long painful death unless your volume is huge. They do a lot of their own installation and service, which also chops into potential dollars for the shop. Its just a tight market for a shop to get into.
Like Krash said, if a customer bought an HS through me, I wouldn't hesitate to order the tools to get it done right. But you bought a HS second hand, and its a gamble if a shop(or number of shops in a town) that hasn't sold one would have that very specialized tool. Its still a relatively new product, and for a time there was more Hammerschmidts out there than the facing tool that Truvativ invented to CYA when they realized there were some issues during installation.
I'm not trying to jump down your throat here, its just that I'm a bike shop guy who was heavily involved in DH racing and the scene for a while and I have spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking about this kind of stuff. I'd love to sell, service and immerse myself in the kind of stuff that Go-Ride moves out the door, and I can bet that theres hundreds of shop guys like me out there, but I also need to eat and pay my mortgage....so with that...I'm off to sell some Chrome bags, discuss chain and tape colors and hopefully move a Spot and a Knolly out the door.

**flowtron's ghost** · 01-16-2010, 01:40 PM

I was amazed by the amount of Krypto NY Locks I saw locked to bikes that were worth half as much as the chain itself when I was in NYC.
We sell maybe one a month, and its usually for a scooter.

**gravitylover** · 01-16-2010, 04:35 PM

... and we sold just under 2,000 last year.

**marshalolson** · 01-16-2010, 04:56 PM

wow. thats alot.

when i was in chicago, we probably sold 500 i bet. i probably sold 5 total in 10 yrs in boulder....

**slampe** · 01-16-2010, 08:59 PM

In Spokane, we ordered 4 by accident and are yet to move one. Didn't want to pay the shipping to send them back either. 2000 + is ridiculous...

**kidwoo** · 01-16-2010, 09:52 PM

I still don't think I've ever even been in a shop that owns an ISCG facing tool (I literally just learned of its existence in this thread), or a 1.5 headtube facer.

I've seen the specialized bootymeter though. And I mean you know, after that.......everything else kind of pales and is forgivable.

**Dickeymotto** · 01-17-2010, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

Try The Bike Shoppe. I've never been in there but they are nice to deal with on the phone and at least the one staff member I talk to on the regular is knowledgable....

I can't say I'm stoked on them either. Most of the people I've dealt with there are high school kids that don't ride bikes and don't know crap.

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