Ski Mountaineering boots - What's out there?

[BurnHard]

I've been contemplating options and I think I've decided to sell my Scarpa Denali TTs and have a two-boot quiver: super stiff alpine boots and super lightweight dynafit AT boots. I plan on using the alpine boots both for in-bounds skiing on 916-mounted skis and side/slack-country on Marker Dukes mountd skis in the winter season, and the dynafit AT boots on light skis mounted with Dynafit FT12s for spring peak bagging.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important feature of a solid ski mountaineering boot are good soles, preferably thick Vibrams. The Denali TTs are great in that aspect. Vibram rubber, rockered, big fat lugs.

Other important factors, obviously, walkability, weight, and stiffness in ski mode (preferably slightly stiffer than the Denali TTs).

Considering the following boots, wondering what else there is out there, what your guys' experiences are... In no specific order:

1. Garmont Radium - 3640g per pair, $759 MSRP
Overlap design, Gfit liner, 4 buckels, about as stiff as the Adrenaline.
Looks like they have decent soles...

2. Garmont Helium - 3330g per pair, $679 on bc.com
Overlap design, Gfit liner, 3 buckles, no stiffness rating?

3. Scarpa Spirit 4 - 3570g per pair, $679 on bc.com
classic AT design, Scarpa Intuition liner, 4 buckles, forward lean adjust.
Decent sole, not vibram but nice lugs.

4. Dynafit ZZero CF-T - 2860g per pair, $749 on bc.com
Classic AT design, sole doesn't look too hot even in reviews, 4 buckles, power strap, forward lean adjust.

5. Garmon Axon - 4150g per pair, $699 on bc.com
Classic at design, sole looks good, 4 buckles, 2 forward leans, walk mode.
Downside: HEAVY.

6. Scarpa Skookum - 3690g per pair, $769 on MMG.com
Real 4-buckle design, power strap, forward lean adjust, STIFF.

For comparison
N. Scarpa Denali TT, 3570g per pair, paid $200 used
classic AT design, oldschool scarpa thermo liner, 4 buckles.

Any other boots I should be considering?
-b

[jon turner]

I've climbed a fair bit in my zzero4's and I dig them a lot. You can't beat the lightweight, and they can handle anything but the stiffest skis fairly well. They're a decent stiffness now (a little bit stiffer than my old TT's), but If you put in an intuition liner they should be plenty stiff for ski mountaineering. I'm kinda in the same boat as you, except instead of a full alpine boot, my stiff boot will likely end up being a black diamond factor.

B/W scarpa, garmont, and dynafit, which boot last fits your foot best will be a significant impact on which boot you get as well.

[JoeStrummer]

Random thoughts -

If you are looking for superlight and will climb with crampons or without over rock and kitty litter, I think you have a few choices. I climb WI3 and do lots of mountaineering in my Megarides, so the Radium would be a logical choice for me if I ever upgrade touring-focused boots - it has a bit of rocker and a decent lugged sole. The Helium would be great if you are fine with 3 buckles.

I've also climbed ice in the ZZero PUs and they are similar in feel but I can't comment on the durability.

I might lay off the Spirit 4s, ZZeus, and Axons if mountaineering is going to be your thing, only because I'm not sure weight and maximum lateral stiffness are desirable in a climbing boot. The PU on the new ZZeus is thick enough to stop a bullet, so I'm not sure how well they could climb but they should last forever. The new Scarpa Skookum has a beefy sole but the rubber seems soft to me and I wouldn't want to climb in them. So I wouldn't recommend any of these if you really want a mountaineering-focused boot. I'm sure others will have a different opinion, people ski and climb the gnarl in all these boots.

[harpo-the-skier]

Love my Zzeros, but with the quick step in Dyna toe fittings, you can't resole them like you could my Megarides and they wear that much quicker becuase the rubber is thinner under the toe fittings. They perform great though.

[BurnHard]

Sweet, great start, thanks guys!

Re: your ZZeros, jon, when you say you 'climbed' a lot in them, do you mean skinning or do you mean actual climbing on rock?
The former is obviously an important factor for AT boots but so far my experience has been that most AT boots skin well.
The latter, on the other hand, is what really matters to me - the ability to climb on rock / kitty litter and be used with crampons.'

Thanks for the input Joe. Not sure why you eliminate the Spirit 4 right away - they're slightly lighter than the Radium. But I'm with you about the Axons and ZZeus, definitely too heavy, I'd prefer something lighter than my Denalis.

I put the Helium up because it's one of the lightest boots I can find - yea, it's 3 buckle, I'll have to try them on and feel them but they might be worthwhile .... Otherwise, what's the LIGHTEST At boot out there? I guess the ZZero can't be beat...

-b

[BurnHard]

Love my Zzeros, but with the quick step in Dyna toe fittings, you can't resole them like you could my Megarides and they wear that much quicker becuase the rubber is thinner under the toe fittings. They perform great though.

Ah damn, that's what I was gonna ask next ... What about resoling boots? Is it possible to have a Vibram sole put on AT boots that didn't have Vibrams before?
Not being able to resole the ZZero is definitely an annoyance.

[Hugh Conway]

honestly I haven't noticed much difference in branded Vibram vs. non branded rubber soles.

Axons are indeed heavy. The lack of rocker makes them less than stellar for walking and climbing. The Spirit isn't a "true" 4 buckle boot - I've grown to hate the Scarpa instep buckle. Hence the Scarpa Skookum looks pretty sweet 1770 g size 27 MP

For boots check out http://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/

[summit]

Per TelemarkPyrenes
Skookum - 3540g /pair
Spirit 3 - 3520g/pair
WTF? Isn't the Skookum supposed to be much heavier/burlier?

The Spirit isn't a "true" 4 buckle boot - I've grown to hate the Scarpa instep buckle.

I like the instep buckle.
Why do you hate the instep buckle?

[couloirman]

I love my sprirt 4's, but after less than 15 days of scrambling/skiing they look like they have been skied for several seasons of use. They perform great, but for the price point are the least durable things Ive ever set foot in. My bootfitter commented on it too and asked if I had been out 200 days the previous season, and when I said no, about 15(cut me some slack, I was injured) he was astounded. I think at this point Im done with scarpa, Im looking at replacing with a new BD offering this season.

[jon turner]

Sweet, great start, thanks guys!

Re: your ZZeros, jon, when you say you 'climbed' a lot in them, do you mean skinning or do you mean actual climbing on rock?

They skin just fine. I was talking about climbing/scrambling around on rock. I did the last bit of Wetterhorn with them last year among a number of other climbs and they handled the rock great. The thinness of the sole under the toe is a concern, but I haven't noticed too excessive of wear. Here's Dawson's take after a season of abuse on the zzero 4:

http://www.wildsnow.com/1046/50000-m...-term-testing/

[BurnHard]

I see what you're sayin hugh - indeed I'm not the biggest fan of the instep buckle in my Denalis... Initially it gives me a good feeling because it seems to pull the heel into the boot, but eventually it just hurts my instep after a long day. It's always the first buckle I losen after a long day...

Re Vibram sole - I agree there is not a *HUGE* difference between Vibram & non-brand-name rubber soles as far as durability goes, but there is some. Plus, in general, Vibram soles have better lugs & rocker... I'm worried about those no-name soles being slippery on rock.

DAMN the Skookum looks interesting ... NickPappaG mentioned it earlier but Bc.com doesn't have it so I totally forgot about it.
Definitely put that on the list.

[JoeStrummer]

Skookums are where I am leaning for my heavier resort boot, with the Megarides for tours and stuff like 14er skiing. The Skookum doesn't feel like something I would want to scramble around in much, although the touring tongue helps. I like the ZZeus better but the Skookum feels better out of the box.

I would take weights posted at Telemark Pyrenees (or anywhere else) with a grain of salt. The Skookum is quite burly.

Scarpa's Pebax (Skookums and Spirit 4s) gets beat to shit in a hurry but it's all cosmetic, the material is pretty tough.

[Hugh Conway]

I see what you're sayin hugh - indeed I'm not the biggest fan of the instep buckle in my Denalis... Initially it gives me a good feeling because it seems to pull the heel into the boot, but eventually it just hurts my instep after a long day. It's always the first buckle I losen after a long day...

exactly! even worse was to tighten the boot down for a good run only to find your instep screaming in the middle.

based on shop tests the Skookum feels burly but definitely lighter than the Axon. I hope it has a better liner my Axon liner is dead after 8 months

[LightRanger]

Pretty sure the weight you have posted for the Skookum is off with the first digit.

Also, a lower-cuffed boot might be nicer for climbing. I'd go with the Radiums if they fit. Or the Dynafits if you're willing to deal with what harpo says about them. Steve Romeo on tetonat.com (randosteve on this forum) reviewed the Dynafit CFs.

[summit]

Lee Lau's review has the Spirit 3s at 3300 and the Skookums at 3600.

10oz is significant, but not like the weight of the BD Factors.

I think it could be very interesting to try the tall superstiff Skookum tongues in the Spirit 3s!

exactly! even worse was to tighten the boot down for a good run only to find your instep screaming in the middle.

based on shop tests the Skookum feels burly but definitely lighter than the Axon. I hope it has a better liner my Axon liner is dead after 8 months

Good to know.

Liners:
Garmont has always made shitty liners. Both of mine sucked and every one I have seen sucks.

My Spirit 3's liner lasted well (and that was an old Scarpa brand liner). Scarpas all have Intuitions now, which are pretty awesome liners!

[BurnHard]

Yah, my mistake, I posted the weight of ONE boot. They're supposedly 3690g for a pair, which puts them in the same weight class as the Radium and Spirit 4 but supposedly significantly stiffer ... They might just be the right one-boot quiver to replace even my alpine boots if they are indeed so ridiculously stiff.

Then again, can't really tell how good the sole is, can't find any reviews on walkability & climbability, and they do weigh 1kg more than the ZZero4s ...

Anybody know if the Skookums can be resoled? Can ANY dynafit compatible boots be resoled?

[JoeStrummer]

Dave Page used to do AT resoles but I'm not sure if he still does.

The sole rubber on Skookums feel more like Skywalk than Vibram, seems tackier. Like I said, the soles seem meaty but soft. Since they are new I doubt you will find many reports about durability.

[LeeLau]

I don't know if the Skookums can be resoled. I'll ask Scarpa. I don't see why not though. Garmont Megarides can be resoled.

I know this doesn't help you but the Skookums skinned wonderfully. I scrambled with them on snow and some rock. I also scrambled on a bit of rock on the ZZeus. They were ok - nothing special. Restrictive like all ski boots so really I'm luke-warm. I just can't think of any decent ski boot also being great for rock-scrambling but thats just my personal opinion.

Re: the Scarpa instep strap. It's a love-hate thing. I really like the Spirit 3 and Spirit 4 strap. A lot of people hate it. You're really going to have to try it to find out for yourself.

As i pointed out in my wildsnow review, the customizeability of the Skookum is remarkable. I think that's what really draws it to me; that and its beautiful touring stride and flex when skinning.

[summit]

OK, I kinda asked this one before but a little different:

How close would the Spirit3 be to the Skookum if you put the Skookum ski tongue and spoilers on the Spirit 3 with a booster strap and alpine intuition liner?

(I read the TR and the Wildsnow)

[LeeLau]

Here's the Wildsnow review

This is the TR where I used the Skookum

I'm going to suggest the possibility of using Scarpa F1 and Scarpa F3 for your lightweight setups. I didn't like the F3 myself - see my review in doglotion for more - but it could be the trick for a finesse skier. Both those two boots are not as stiff as your Denalis

[BurnHard]

Thanks for your input LeeLau, greatly appreciated!

I used to ski Scarpa Vectors which I think are a predecessor to the F1 and F3 - not too happy about them, they were rather soft and heavy for their lack of stiffness. If anything I'd want boots that are stiffer than the Denali TT, although the Denali's stiffness is just about what I would settle for as a tradeoff for weight & walkability.

I'm gonna head to the stores tomorrow afternoon and try on everything I can get my hands on. Maybe I'll swing by the Scarpa offices here in Boulder, would be sweet if they had a Skookum I can try out

-b

[LeeLau]

OK, I kinda asked this one before but a little different:

How close would the Spirit3 be to the Skookum if you put the Skookum ski tongue and spoilers on the Spirit 3 with a booster strap and alpine intuition liner?

(I read the TR and the Wildsnow)

I think it'd get really really close. That Skookum tongue is pretty damn tall. If I were you I'd get the stiffest Intuition liner possible - maybe even one of the plugs. Ask for a tall liner too.

The thing about the Spirit 3 and Skookum vs one of the softer boots like, say my old Megaride, is that the Megaride's Pebax plastic actually deforms when I really power the ski. Despite putting in a stiffer tongue, I've actually flexed the front of my boot so hard that the front buckles of the Megaride have come loose.

Granted this only happened in extreme situations, like breakable crust 3/4 way down a 3600 ft 55 degree couloir but I really wanted those buckles to stay on in that situation if you know what I mean?

The defining stiffness of the Spirit 3 and the Skookum (and Spirit 4) for that matter are the thicker plastic ribs on the forefoot. to me, that's what those boots shine in terms of skiability. You can see those ribs in the side-to-side picture below.

[harpo-the-skier]

Dave Page used to do AT resoles but I'm not sure if he still does.

The sole rubber on Skookums feel more like Skywalk than Vibram, seems tackier. Like I said, the soles seem meaty but soft. Since they are new I doubt you will find many reports about durability.

Dave Page resole my Megas, and when I sent in my Zzeros, he said he could not resole those Zzeros.

[LeeLau]

Anybody know if the Skookums can be resoled? Can ANY dynafit compatible boots be resoled?

Here's the answer right from Scarpa

Yep, Skookum can be resoled, as can anything in the SCARPA ski lineup. Though part of that is, of course, finding a good resoler with the proper hardware/machinery to do the job (not a lot out there), and, beyond that, someone who can get hold of an original spec sole to replace it with. For what it’s worth, SCARPA keeps a list of people who they authorize to do work on their boots, if anyone ever needs it.

Scarpa will get me that list and I'll post it up


EDIT: Here is the list of recommended people who can resole AT boots.

Gold Star Shoe Rebuilders Ltd
www.goldstarshoerebuilders.com

3308 Dunbar Street
Vancouver, BC V6S 2C1
(604) 734-7477



Dave Page Cobblers in Seattle, 800.252.1229.



Rocky Mountain Resole in Salida, CO. 719.539.1455.

[BurnHard]

Sweet, thanks a ton Lee!

OMG I *LOVE* the Skookum... Tried it on at Larry's in Boulder. Absolutely love that boot.
Super comfortable, super stiff (though not as stiff as real alpine boots), great to walk in, GREAT sole (though not Vibram ).
I'm hooked and pretty much set on buying it - Larry has it for a real great price, and Bc.com doesn't stock it, so I might just buy it there...

-b