Seeking more information about softening boots

[ZeTzun]

Hello!

I'm new around here, and I don't actually ski, but I have some questions about ski boots. I ride an alpine snowboard, and so our boots have a hard shell, like ski boots, but allow for more forward flex.

My objective is to find a pair of boots that fit my feet properly and maximize my riding. Perhaps a ski boot with some modifications (to address some of the flex issues) would be the perfect fit for a lot of hardbooters. We wouldn't really know, as our sport is very niche, and we can count on our fingers the number of new models available to us from boot-makers.

Many racers already ride modified ski boots:

Canadian Matt Morrison took the gold at the first World Cup event this year at Telluride on Dalbello Krypton Pros.


Fellow Canadian Michael Lambert took the silver at the follow up event a few days later. The Canadian Snowboarding Federation's website profile on him lists him as using Full Tilt boots, you can probably see from the picture.


Austrian snowboarding legend Sigi Grabner (creator of SG snowboards: http://www.sgsnowboards.com/) rides modified Atomic RT FR boots.


I've been reading the threads on softening boots, and so far here is what I've drawn from them:

- Get a Booster Strap. (Can anybody provide any further information on placement for this? I read something about wrapping the power strap only around the lining... but you would want the booster strap around the shell as well, correct?)
- Remove any bolts from the spine of the boot, without forgetting to either plug the holes with plastic caps, or cover the inside with duct tape.

Then we get into the stuff that will probably be necessary to soften the boots to a reasonable degree for snowboarding; knife work.

- Cut down the front of the shell. I found a specific example:
--> I used to have a pair of Nordica Grand Prix when I raced. Since i'm not that big of a guy, but tall, I needed them to be a little softer (130 flex index). The boot fitter that did the work for me took the under tongue in the front of the shell. The was a hole about 1" or so down from the top of that piece of plastic, he took a dremmel tool and cut out a line from the top of that plastic tongue to the hole. The tongue was now split into 2 pieces, somewhat. It definitely made them a bit softer, he guessed it took them down to 115 or 120 flex index.

- Cut along the dotted lines. I have pulled the following examples:
-->Take the liner out of your boots. You should see a variety of dotted lines running along the cuff of the inside of the boot. Yup, you guessed it, cut here. Start with trimming the material below your second buckle to allow for more unhindered flex.
-->Remove the liner from the shell. you can cut out a small triangle on the back cuff of the shell to soften it. (shell might have dotted lines on the back. make a V that is 2-3cm wide and 5cm deep. drill a 5mm hole at the bottom of the "V" to prevent cracking.)
-->if you do decide to cut the v out of the back, it is really easy to do. start with the small v first. Heat the shell up with a heat gun, it will get really soft. then use a razor blaze and it should slice through really easy and give you a precise cut every time.
-->As for cutting, a v-cut works in solly's, and in most it is inscribed with a dotted line. Heat it up with a heat gun and cut with a knife. Put a screw driver behind the place you are cutting so you don't cut in the outer shell.

But then, I came across this:
-->In would not follow the advice in that thread. Cutting a v in the back of the boot is old (mid 90's) Proper way to soften boots since 2000 (because of the new design of boots and skis) is to take the up cuff off the boot and extend the v cuts on the sides of the boots. I do this at least 20 times a winter. DONT CUT A V IN THE BACK OF THE BOOT!!

Could somebody elaborate on that?

I also came across this, and I'm a bit confused about what is being proposed:
- v or u notching the inside & outside walls of the lower cuff shell. when done, place boots side-by-side & place a rod in the notches to ensure they are even/level (avoid hockey stick style cuts)
-->Ditto on this. Race boots should have the side u notches. The v cuts on the back are old school and not really the way boots should be cut down because you do not want to lose the progression on the flex. I would also not cut away the front as that can hammer your shins. I have scene this done and people then complain of shin bang.

Most importantly, does anybody have any pictures of any of these cuts?

Thanks for reading!

[mntlion]

the best way depends on the boot brand.
salmon likes to V cut the back, nordica likes to notch the sides...

some 3 prt boots (full tilt, krypton) you can just replace the tongues with softer as needed.

Bottom line: almost any boot can be made 50% softer, so find one that fits your foot right FIRST, and then get that made softer.

usually lowering the front, inside of the boots lower is a good starting point, and doing up the power strap on the liner (under the shell) is a good start.

[snoboy]

I went to a Booster Strap (over liner, inside shell) and changed to an Intuition Luxury liner. That softened my X-Waves noticeably.

[ZeTzun]

Hmmm, maybe the interchangeable tongues for the Dalbellos and Full Tilts are the reason so many racers are on them... easy adjustments to flex.

I've never put a ton of considerations into the added/subtracted stiffness that comes from liners. Perhaps I should really take that into consideration once I find a boot that really fits my feet.

[DtEW]

Completely inconsequential aside: that photo of Sigi Grabner shows him on Atomic RT CS boot shells. They're the same as the RT FR boots, except for color and buckle aesthetics.

[ZeTzun]

Ahh, cheers! Thanks for the correction.

[Spats]

With 3-piece boots (Full Tilt, Krypton, Daleboot), you can get soft tongues, or if the softest tongue isn't soft enough, notch the sides of the tongue at the hinge point. (Make cuts round or you'll start stress cracks). If you want soft, Daleboots are a good place to look. http://www.dalebootusa.com

With 2-piece overlap shells, most of the stiffness comes from the top half pushing against the back of the bottom half as the ankle flexes forward. (Take the liner out and see for yourself...the front of the boot has little to do with the flex stiffness.) Cutting a V-notch in the center of the bottom half will allow the bottom half to flex more until the two halves push together. (Again, leave the bottom round or you'll start stress cracks.)

It's a lot easier to work with 3-piece boots in this way, because usually you can just replace the tongues...and if you mess up cutting a tongue, they're a lot cheaper to replace than new shells (which means you basically have to buy new boots).

[ZeTzun]

Spats, thanks for the input, I've got a better idea as far as flex goes.

I've found some images of hardboots that were modified for increased flex. Can anyone comment on the knife work? Does this seem correct? Would this process be applicable to most ski boots?

[LeeLau]

whats your boot shell size for hard boots ?? 27, 26?

[rabbit]

Here's a screenshot of an official Nordica document named "softening boots.pdf".
It's Nordica Dobermann specific, but might have some value for you as a "official" step by step instruction.

fwiw

-peace
/r

[ZeTzun]

Lee: 26-26.5 or so. I'm currently riding 27s, but I'm thinking about squeezing into something smaller. A few adjustments and I'd possibly be able to squeeze down to a 26. Are you a hardbooter? Got something for sale? PM me.

rabbit: BLESS man. I was completely clueless as to what approximately should be done when extending the v cuts on the sides of the boot. That's awesome.

[Damian Sanders]

Hmmm, maybe the interchangeable tongues for the Dalbellos and Full Tilts are the reason so many racers are on them... easy adjustments to flex.

I've never put a ton of considerations into the added/subtracted stiffness that comes from liners. Perhaps I should really take that into consideration once I find a boot that really fits my feet.

Can't go wrong with full tilts/flexons. There is a HUGE range of adjustment in the tounges....probably from around a 60 flex index to around 120 or so. There's also the option of running different flexes on each boot, swaping around, etc.

Other bonuses:

- Light, very light.
- Good lateral and aft stiffness. But you could take a rear cuff peice and soften it if needed (and swap it in and out)
- Very modular parts
- Wide canting range.
- Most importantly, the tounges provide a VERY linear progression of the boot stiffness. It's like flexing against a spring. Some overlap boots can be soft for a while then get stiff quickly, which can't be good for edge control. The guy in the pics above looks like he's running the stiffest black tounge, which still flexes nice. But you could freeride on a softer tounge.
- Flexons on ebay for cheap (for spare parts)

Oh on the liners - a tounge type liner will usually be stiffer than an intuition/thermoflex.

[mntlion]

ummm, buy what FITS you better?