Thread: Berthoud Photo/Conditions Thread (2009-2010)

^^^thanks for the honest post.....

And welcome!

Originally Posted by jessekhowe

As far as the criticism on route selection - we've all hucked that cornice a million times.

I'm going out and calling bullshit on this. If you had skied the terrain as you say you have, you would have had far greater respect given the general snowpack conditions and the 1/11/10 CAIC report noting 3 large avalanches above treeline at BP over the previous 3 days. Furthermore, what you skied does not get skied that often, so take your million times and throw more pebbles off the cornice.

Originally Posted by NPG

I'm going out and calling bullshit on this. If you had skied the terrain as you say you have, you would have had far greater respect given the general snowpack conditions and the 1/11/10 CAIC report noting 3 large avalanches above treeline at BP over the previous 3 days. Furthermore, what you skied does not get skied that often, so take your million times and throw more pebbles off the cornice.

heh, i thought the CAIC report was pretty hilarious...throwing a few rocks off the side to check stability, funny to say the least. I don't want to arm chair QB here but in my opinion it was pretty poor terrain selection given the snowpack/danger at the time...skiiers right from the intial drop in point (no cornice) is usually the safest line on no name, but i hope they learned from it and just glad that everybody is ok. When in doubt, live to ski another day...

Decent turns this afternoon. Collapsing on NE aspect near treeline. Have a safe weekend.

Originally Posted by jessekhowe

So, my friend let me know of the chitter chatter on here regarding the slide Monday, 1/11, figured I'd chime in. This is my first time posting.
I'm the one who got taken down. It sucked.

As far as the criticism on route selection - we've all hucked that cornice a million times. With 20/20 hindsight vision, it was a big mistake to think about hucking it with the Avy danger where it was, but at the time, I TRULY FELT I WAS NOT IN ANY DANGER STANDING 5' BACK (I was worried about the slope ripping out on my landing, but felt comfortable with the cornice. Call it what you want, but that was our view that day). It is important to note there was no 'overhang' on the cornice, it was completely vertical (perhaps feeding a sense of safety, who knows).
As far as the criticism about chucking rocks on to the slope (NOT the cornice) to see if something would release, I have to agree with CAIC, "An easily carried rock is not an effective stability test. As Tremper writes in Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain a cornice chunk "the size of a refrigerator or small car" is effective. "The smaller the cornice, the less effective the test." The goal is to stress the slope much more than a rider will.
Again, I felt at 5 feet back from a non-overhang cornice that I was in a safe position. I was dead wrong, but fortunately am not dead.

My original report of the incident sent to CAIC:

Incident:
1 friend was skier's right of me & witnessed the entire incident, he described it as watching me falling through a trap door, it happened so fast. The other 3 friends were behind me & didn't see me fall. They all heard the noise of the cornice collapse/subsequent avalanche.
I fell approximately 15-20' in to No Name Run. My momentum of throwing the rock forced my legs out from under me when the cornice collapsed. I landed on my back after the fall & immediately rolled over to thrust both fists to attempt self arrest (I did not have skis on). I self arrested for maybe 2 seconds and the continued cornice collapse above took me out as I could not hang on (at first when I self arrested I thought I was good, as I could feel the snow below me releasing). My helmet was dislodged on this initial impact. I was now sliding down in the middle of the avalanche. I was swimming towards the top the entire time. I went over a 10-15' rock band in the middle, I think this buried me below the snow as I fell. The 1 friend who watched the entire incident said I was below the snow in this bottom section for approximately 75-100', he also estimated my speed at 40-50mph. At one point I swam to the top during the fall & yelled out "HELP!" I continued swimming to the top & now had some snow forced down my throat. I began punching for an air pocket/continued swimming as I felt the snow begin to slow down. I ended up on top of the snow in the middle of the runout. My helmet was on top of the snow about 20' below me. The entire fall from top to bottom was approximately 15-20 seconds.

REVIEW:
As my friends & I talked about what happened in the aftermath, we all agreed we could have made some more conservative decisions leading up to the incident (call it a learning experience), but when the fit hit the shan we all thought we reacted A+ in a real deal situation.
I'm just glad I didn't die so I can actually respond to all the Monday Morning QB's on here personally.
See ya out there.

What exactly are you trying to say here? What are you trying to defend?

Originally Posted by jessekhowe

So, my friend let me know of the chitter chatter on here regarding the slide Monday, 1/11, figured I'd chime in. This is my first time posting.
I'm the one who got taken down. It sucked.

As far as the criticism on route selection - we've all hucked that cornice a million times. With 20/20 hindsight vision, it was a big mistake to think about hucking it with the Avy danger where it was, but at the time, I TRULY FELT I WAS NOT IN ANY DANGER STANDING 5' BACK (I was worried about the slope ripping out on my landing, but felt comfortable with the cornice. Call it what you want, but that was our view that day). It is important to note there was no 'overhang' on the cornice, it was completely vertical (perhaps feeding a sense of safety, who knows).
As far as the criticism about chucking rocks on to the slope (NOT the cornice) to see if something would release, I have to agree with CAIC, "An easily carried rock is not an effective stability test. As Tremper writes in Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain a cornice chunk "the size of a refrigerator or small car" is effective. "The smaller the cornice, the less effective the test." The goal is to stress the slope much more than a rider will.
Again, I felt at 5 feet back from a non-overhang cornice that I was in a safe position. I was dead wrong, but fortunately am not dead.

My original report of the incident sent to CAIC:

Incident:
1 friend was skier's right of me & witnessed the entire incident, he described it as watching me falling through a trap door, it happened so fast. The other 3 friends were behind me & didn't see me fall. They all heard the noise of the cornice collapse/subsequent avalanche.
I fell approximately 15-20' in to No Name Run. My momentum of throwing the rock forced my legs out from under me when the cornice collapsed. I landed on my back after the fall & immediately rolled over to thrust both fists to attempt self arrest (I did not have skis on). I self arrested for maybe 2 seconds and the continued cornice collapse above took me out as I could not hang on (at first when I self arrested I thought I was good, as I could feel the snow below me releasing). My helmet was dislodged on this initial impact. I was now sliding down in the middle of the avalanche. I was swimming towards the top the entire time. I went over a 10-15' rock band in the middle, I think this buried me below the snow as I fell. The 1 friend who watched the entire incident said I was below the snow in this bottom section for approximately 75-100', he also estimated my speed at 40-50mph. At one point I swam to the top during the fall & yelled out "HELP!" I continued swimming to the top & now had some snow forced down my throat. I began punching for an air pocket/continued swimming as I felt the snow begin to slow down. I ended up on top of the snow in the middle of the runout. My helmet was on top of the snow about 20' below me. The entire fall from top to bottom was approximately 15-20 seconds.

REVIEW:
As my friends & I talked about what happened in the aftermath, we all agreed we could have made some more conservative decisions leading up to the incident (call it a learning experience), but when the fit hit the shan we all thought we reacted A+ in a real deal situation.
I'm just glad I didn't die so I can actually respond to all the Monday Morning QB's on here personally.
See ya out there.

this would funny shit if people didn't have to risk their life to save idiots like you. anyone who has taken an avy course knows that hucking in the backcountry is taking a big risk, doing it in current conditions is looking for trouble.

An internet forum with second guessing, name calling, sh&* talking, & the like. Well, that's certainly nothing new.
Gorms, gracias for the honest reaction to an honest post, it was my first and this will be my last on TGR. I don't have space for any more drama in my life at the moment, on or off the internet.
Skiing the 110's can certainly be a fun day (just stay out of Teacup Bowl if don't want any avy danger possibility), but I am not the first who has failed in the search for an adrenaline rush, and I won't be the last.
I know I made some mistakes that day, but anyone who has ever been caught in a slide (we have skied Berthoud 40-60 days/year for the past 7 winters & this was the 1st time I or the crew I ride with has ever been involved) will be subject to second guessing & heckling (dead or alive).
I am OK with that.
So to all the talkers, I certainly hope you don't make any dumb decisions for the rest of your lives, on or off the pass. It would be a pity for you all to have to ponder this post again in a time of vulnerability as you regret a line choice or one night stand.
See ya out there.
J HOWE OUT

^you sir are extremely lucky to be alive and the first thing you do is rush onto a forum to defend your actions to a group of people you dont even know?

dont you have a loved one or something that maybe you should be taking care of....or perhaps theres some people in haiti that could use some of your dumb luck right about now.

oh and on a different note, found some good snow there today!

Beautiful day with surprisingly acceptable snow, would've been nice if G3's AMAZING tip-attachment system hadn't sheared off at the start of the day.

^^^^^
how about posting something moderately helpful? where up there did you ladies find good snow?

Nitro and 3rd little indian

It was stoketacular.

Seriously though the snow was surprisingly decent just about everywhere.

Floral was really good

Funny I worked for 3 different ski patrols in the central CO rockies and on a number of occasions recall kicking cornices to precipitate slides then skiing a chute after it ran. Never chucked a rock into one tho. There's a run in Highlands Bowl named Boxcar after the patroller who rode railroadboxcar sized
chunk of cornice to the bottom.

I am glad you are OK and nobody got hurt badly or killed on my favorite mountain. I think everyone is right it wasn't the best decision, and our comrade is lucky to be alive. And as for talking shit on the internet about it is Karmic dynamite. I wouldn't want people making fun of me after I came within inches of losing my life. Let keep it civil and help each other out, instead of bagging on other people decisions and bad luck. Why don't you give advice and pointers instead of calling someone a retard. The way the world works; someday maybe they are calling you retard.

Originally Posted by PedroDelfuego

Let keep it civil and help each other out, instead of bagging on other people decisions and bad luck. Why don't you give advice and pointers instead of calling someone a retard. The way the world works; someday maybe they are calling you retard.

You're not real familiar with the way we do things around here, are you?

Originally Posted by PedroDelfuego

I am glad you are OK and nobody got hurt badly or killed on my favorite mountain. I think everyone is right it wasn't the best decision, and our comrade is lucky to be alive. And as for talking shit on the internet about it is Karmic dynamite. I wouldn't want people making fun of me after I came within inches of losing my life. Let keep it civil and help each other out, instead of bagging on other people decisions and bad luck. Why don't you give advice and pointers instead of calling someone a retard. The way the world works; someday maybe they are calling you retard.

I don't think anyone really admonished the guy in this thread. Not badly anyway. I posted the pic, and most of the discussion was posted before anyone even knew about the guy getting burried. I don't even know why he felt the need to defend himself on this site.

The only thing he was called on was for throwing rocks to test the snowpack. That's pretty fucking dumb, you have to admit. I would give anyone shit for that to their face.

I've almost died in a few instances involved with avalanches from making stupid mistakes. I caught flack from it, but I also learned from it and grew the fuck up. This dude should do the same and stop crying.

...but most people I meet and ride with at BP or freakin' cool, and very nice.

I just use the rule that:

Don't say it on the internet if you wouldn't say it to their face.

And please don't jump my shit for posting this.

Respectfully,

Pedro

PS anybody go up yesterday? How is it?

Originally Posted by PedroDelfuego

...but most people I meet and ride with at BP or freakin' cool, and very nice.

I just use the rule that:

Don't say it on the internet if you wouldn't say it to their face.

And please don't jump my shit for posting this.

Respectfully,

Pedro

PS anybody go up yesterday? How is it?

You're a retard.

^took the words right out of my mouth

I drive a black Honda Accord with a Thule and bra and I ride a splitty. If you see me at the pass come say that to my face. I am looking forward to it.

^^^ you wear a bra?

Jesus, this thread has just gotten all nuts...MMA smackdown!

I haven't been up to Berthoud in weeks, and in fact I haven't been on skis in almost 3 weeks. House Hunting has taken my life away, but that is over now.

Too bad the snow is garbage and super sketch right now.

To comment on the discussion, that whole area would not have even had me NEAR it this season, and not on that day. But I will admit, I back off of a LOT of things now that I have two young kids.

In any event, ULLR needs to hershey squirt all over the central, northern, and southern Rockies any time now.

end/ rant-blog-stupid post

on a different note, looks like weds am could be worth a little scoping around up there anyone interested? JJ? Carol? Jeff? I gotta be at work at 12, so when I say AM we don't even have to be up all that early